Open Forum – Sunday

15 July 2018

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This post is open to anyone to comment on any topic that isn’t spam, illegal or offensive. All Your NZ posts are open but this one is for you to raise topics that interest you. 

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51 Comments

  1. David

     /  15th July 2018

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/105432220/industry-letter-to-government-criticises-fishing-camera-proposal

    On top of the Kermedecs decision this annoys me, all those years of claiming National were beholden to big business well it looks like Labour are hypocrites. If the fishing industry doesnt want cameras and just about say because they dont want anyone to see them dumping by catch then I feel it makes it more important to implement them.
    National were slow on this front Labour are plain shameless, NZ First have a donor base but at least are honest about who pays them and the Greens…well what is the point of them as they miss chance after chance to help the planet and fold every time in exchange for some waffly zero emissions in 50 years time.

    Reply
  2. David

     /  15th July 2018

    Has anyone seen Marama Davison, think the Greens made a rubbish choice there and should have picked JAG. One can see once again the dead hand of Meteria Turei in that poor choice, sure Davison is the heir to Turei and that is becoming apparent.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  15th July 2018

      Has to be visible above 10,000 kauri trees? Good luck with that. Also people tryng for a better view will be wrecked on Bean Rock regularly.

      Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  15th July 2018

      The gap is narrowing in the poll. I voted “no” 10 times.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  15th July 2018

        Why? Because you need to chest & screw the results because you have a minority viewpoint?

        I haven’t bothered to look at it. I’m guessing, from an item I half heard on 1ewes, it’s something to do with a Maori monument of something like Rio’s Christ The Redeemer scale at Bastion Point. Sounded like it would be a real eye-catcher for the tourists.

        Reply
  3. Corky

     /  15th July 2018

    You can listen to Phil Goff, or you listen to this. A dying breed of commentator with concise pronunciation, and a hint of pompousness. But best of all, someone who can actually think. Folks, their ranks are thinning with the passing years.

    https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/07/lindsay-perigo-speech-free-speech-wellington/

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  15th July 2018

      Hang on, I’ll have a listen.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  15th July 2018

        Good speech. Tommy needs to be sanctioned for contempt of Court. Dunno whether he needed to be jailed if he could just have been fined or banged up on home detention for a short time. He breached an important principle of a fair trial under British Law. But he did so to make, I think, the right point.

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  15th July 2018

          Yep, there would have been about ten people listening. Pity. Good to see him mention Chris Trotter. Perigo and Trotter don’t get on. Chris needs a high five for his support of free speech. Especially given Trotters a Leftie

          Reply
    • Blazer

       /  15th July 2018

      What a really,really wonderful speech.
      And the crowd was bigger,much bigger than at Obama’s inauguration.
      Lindsay is a truly,exceptionnal, just fantastic ,clever orator .

      Reply
      • Corky

         /  15th July 2018

        ”Lindsay is a truly,exceptional, just fantastic ,clever orator .”

        No, he’s not.

        Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  15th July 2018

      I’m a bit confused. There is the Free Speech Coalition and Right Minds NZ? It is a shame not so many people attended. i didn’t know it was on. The problem is that the infrastructure is owned and controlled. If people understood what they aren’t hearing they may be shocked. Pisses me off the way goff and co get things done Eg the language “It will reflect the unique culture and identity of our city and be enjoyed equally by Māori, the wider community and international visitors,” he said.. Narcissists think there is no distinction between what they feel and you feel; the line between me and you is blurred. What you think is just a minor irritation.

      Reply
  4. wooden goat

     /  15th July 2018

    I’m interested in finding out from left-wingers why it is that they believe that the ideology of Islam isn’t dangerous. Getting answers to these questions will help me understand why they hold that view.

    ( Note – I do not intend at all for this post to be offensive. I’m just asking questions that I’m sure many people would like to see answered. )

    “Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle called,: “War is deceit”. ”
    – Sahih Bukhari 4:52:268

    Would left-wingers agree with me that the 1400-year history of Islam has been a violent and hateful history? (Oh, and please don’t bring Christianity into it – I want to focus exclusively on Islam here. No red-herrings please. ).

    Would left-wingers agree that Muslims view “the word of Allah” as being perfect, Mohammed as being perfect and therefore because of these things, Islam cannot change (by definition)?

    Do left-wingers know that Muslims owe their allegiance to Allah (not to any Western country that they live in), and that to Muslims, Islamic laws (because they come from Allah) triumph over Western (man-made) laws?

    Do left-wingers accept that Muslims seek concessions to their beliefs from Western authorities (e.g. separate swimming times, prayer rooms, times for prayers, halal food……. )?

    Are such concessions a “good thing”? If so, why? How do we know that these concessions are not *subversion* – the gradual “warming of the frog in a pot of water”?

    Would left-wingers agree that Muslim-dominated suburbs and/or cities in the West (especially violent ones) are effectively tiny Muslim-controlled “enclaves”? If not, why not?

    Is the existence of such violent Muslim-controlled suburbs/cities in the West a “good thing”? If so, why?

    Would left-wingers agree that it is possible for an ideology to seem good and peaceful on the surface, but when you look below the surface it is bad?

    Finally, I present a quote from this document by the Muslim Brotherhood on their plans for America –
    https://clarionproject.org/muslim_brotherhood_explanatory_memorandum/

    Quote – ““The process of settlement is a ‘Civilization-Jihadist Process’ with all the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the **Western civilization** from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house **by their hands** and the hands of the believers…”

    “[W]e must possess a mastery of the art of ‘coalitions’, the art of ‘absorption’ and the principles of ‘cooperation.’”
    – end quote

    Does it not make perfect sense that if a hostile ideology is unable to beat an enemy militarily, it would seek to beat them by deception, infiltration and stealth?

    Are you not convinced that Islam is hostile to non-believers?

    Given this kind of stuff, why is it that left-wingers find it so hard to believe that Islam is aiming to infiltrate and subvert Western countries, including New Zealand?

    I apologise for the long post, but I am struggling to get my head around why it is that despite its violent and bloody 1400 year history (and the hundreds of hateful verses in the Koran), so many people find it hard to believe that Islam seeks to subvert and take over the non-Muslim world.

    After all, the SAS use stealth and *they* are dangerous.
    ( So does a cloaked Klingon starship, but by the time it decloaks, it is too late. )

    – w.g.

    P.S. – I’m off to the gym this afternoon so will try to respond to any replies tonight.

    Reply
    • The seperate Muslim swimming times has been exposed as a myth, Some pools have women only evenings. No place in NZ would have enough Muslims to have Muslim only times, even it the Muslims asked for it which they have not.

      So have the supposed demands for prayer rooms. A Muslim can pray anywhere on a prayer mat, which they carry with them. Prayer rooms in places like hospitals are for all comers. The distorted story about a school whose Muslim students demanded a prayer room was a lie. The school made a room available for people of all religions.

      The halal food is another myth, The fact that it’s available doesn’t mean that it was demanded, any more than kosher or vegetarian food is. I see Muslims in Pak & Save, buyiing the same as the rest of us.

      It seems that whether or not the requests are genuine, and they seldom are, the word demand is used,

      If the NZ Muslims are bent on infiltrating and taking over, they are being singularly unsuccessful at it. Could it be that people who leave an extremist culture want to escape it ?

      More than once in the UK, Muslims and Jews have been used by people who want Christmas decorations and festivities banned but haven’t the guts to say so. The British Jewish and Muslim federations have said that no such demand was ever made by either and they tire of being used in this way. A school in NZ wanted hot cross buns banned because it
      offended the local Muslims. The local Muslims responded by saying that they were NOT offended by hot cross buns and were capable of speaking for themselves about such things.

      The ignorance about Islam among people who have no idea of the fact that not all Muslims are clones is abysmal. So is the deliberate and malicious defamation by some people. Corky is an obvious example of both of these types, a prime example of what Pope meant by a LITTLE learnng being a dang’rous thing.

      Christians; first loyalty is supposedly to God, but look at the variations in Christianity, from Eastern Orthodoxy to people like those in Gloriavale. The saintly Father Sophrony of Essex (memory eternal) is as different to Brian Tamaki and the revolting Westboro Baptists as a cat is from a dog.

      Why can people not see that Muslims vary, too ? Far from infiltrating, they are contributing to NZ for the most part.

      Do you think that Gloriavale is representative of Christianity ? When did you last see a Gloriavale woman doctor ?

      Reply
      • Corky

         /  15th July 2018

        ‘ Separate Muslim swimming times has been exposed as a myth, Some pools have women only evenings. No place in NZ would have enough Muslims to have Muslim only times, even it the Muslims asked for it which they have not.”

        I’ve asked you before not to repeat that LIE Hastings council instigated women’s only swimming times at the behest of Muslims. They may now be open to all women, I don’t know.

        TAKE HOME POINT: Muslim women asked for it. Isn’t that sexism?

        ”So have the supposed demands for prayer rooms. ”

        The story I read about a prayer room, if I remember correctly, was asked for by Muslims, but was to be used by all people as a meditation or religious observance space. Given few
        people meditate or have Christian observances, it naturally will become a defacto mosque where others will feel uncomfortable. And a women dare not be present when the bros are praying to Allah.

        We have been through this debate before. You obviously aren’t worried about the facts..are you.

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  15th July 2018

          Nor are you. The pool in question, about which the misinformation was disseminated, was in Auckland.

          Request and demand are not synonyms.

          The rest of what you have said is utter nonsense, No evidence, just opinion and ill-informed opinion at that.

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  15th July 2018

            Confused again ..with a poor memory. Have you forgotten we had this debate before? And what did I tell you? I told you I emailed the pool in question after seeing the story over at Whaleoil? Do you remember what the reply said?

            ”Request and demand are not synonyms.”

            Prattish nit picking. Of course, Islam does not make such fine distinctions.

            ”Seeing and reading definitely aren’t synonyms.”

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  16th July 2018

              Corky and ignoramus are synonyms.

              If you seriously imagine that I note and memorise every word that you babble, you are a conceited idiot,

              You personify Blake’s statement about generalising and idiocy,

              Look up a dictionary – if you have one.

              Meshuggenah.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  15th July 2018

          In fact, the segregation in mosques varies, with most not practicing it. You may (or probably are not) familiar with the teachings of St Paul on the place of women in churches, , both literally and figuratively.

          One only has to go to a marae to see segregation, with women at the back.

          I take it that you have never been in a mosque, or you would not talk such utter nonsense about them. I have.

          The prayer rooms in hospitals and other places are open to all. The idea that they will become de facto mosques is rubbish, based upon nothing at all. As is your statement about hardly anyone having beliefs or meditating. I see no reason why anyone should be made uncomfortable because someone else has been praying in a room.

          Women-only nights have been welcomed by Muslim women, but not ‘demanded’ by them. I wonder if you are confusing Hastings in the UK with the Hastings here.

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  15th July 2018

            Let’s see.

            ”In fact, the segregation in mosques varies, with most not practising it.”

            Bullshite..

            No need to answer the rest of your post. Your ignorance and bluff is quite astounding.

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  16th July 2018

              You don’t want to answer it because it’s true and you can’t refute it.

              The ignorance and bluff is yours, and like all ignorant bluffers, you can’t stand it when someone comes up with the facts.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  15th July 2018

          Then there is the small detail that the prayers are said at set times, and that a prayer mat is used, so that they could be done anywhere. For most people, only one of the 5 set prayers would be during a working day.

          However, the truth is unlikely to have any effect on your bigotry.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  15th July 2018

            Just a small point. A prayer mat does not appear to be a requirement for the daily paying of obeisance & undererved praise to Allah The Terrible. I have seen Muslims kneeling & touching their foreheads directly onto the sand many times, in video shown on Aljaz tv, often during lulls in the deadly process of trying to kill each other in a number of the current fundamentalist-driven wars in the Middle East.

            Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  15th July 2018

        As Samuel Huntington.’ points out: Immigrants to America came to become Americans, but Turks in Germany have no wish to become Germans; and one might add, Muslims in Australia and New Zealand may not en bloc wish to assume the national identity at the cost of being first and foremost Muslims. They can maintain this stance, as the legal situation at the present time is grounded in the Human Rights Charter which does not condone state orchestrated enforced assimilation and guarantees cultural freedom and the free practice of religious worship. culuronfredom nd rche free practice of religious worship. Especially what is regarded as religious freedom enjoys an iconic status

        Talks about Australia having a risk management approach so not prejudice but true.
        That is why the UN set up the Alliance of Civilisations.

        Reply
    • “I’m interested in finding out from left-wingers why it is that they believe that the ideology of Islam isn’t dangerous.”

      I’m not a left winger, but I don’t think ideologies are dangerous, it’s people who use ideologies badly who can be dangerous.

      Do you think “the ideology of Islam” is:
      – actually dangerous
      – potentially dangerous
      – theoretically dangerous

      And how do you think any possible danger compares to other dangers already obvious in New Zealand, like domestic and public violence, the road toll, suicides, obesity and poor diets?

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  15th July 2018

        Your last paragraph. These days, it adds snother one to the mix that wasn’t there before.

        Reply
    • I don’t like how Islam is practiced in some parts of the world (neither do I like how some other religions and ideologies are practiced).

      We have no control over how things are practised elsewhere in the world. Nor can we control things like nuclear risks, pollution risks, political risks and finnancial risks.

      I’m wary of what could happen here at some time in the future, but I don’t think it is anywhere close to New Zealand’s biggest danger.

      I remember in my lifetime when other groups of immigrants were ostracised and feared by some, but we have survived those scare campaigns.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  15th July 2018

        Apart from the long past “yellow peril” & the (understandable) fears of Japanese & German 5th columnists among our communities during world wars 1 & 2, I don’t think we have ever needed to fear being murdered by terrorists motivated and/or justified by their religion. And you only have to take an air flight to see how serious a threat the world considers this to be.

        Reply
      • duperez

         /  15th July 2018

        Do you think there could be those who think no immigrants should be allowed? Or that those immigrants who do not fit the current cultural norms shouldn’t be allowed in?

        Do you think at some stage of the history on New Zealand there was mass immigration of those who did not fit the current cultural norms? Should they have been allowed in?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  15th July 2018

          I see that’s adressed to PG, dupers, but for my 2 cents worth:
          Do you think there could be those who think no immigrants should be allowed?

          Yes.

          Or that those immigrants who do not fit the current cultural norms shouldn’t be allowed in?

          Yes. I’m one of them. Although I think there are practical, diplomatic, & potentially economic difficulties with developing immigration critera & implementing a policy that gives effect to this in such a way that migrant selection is not applied universally to people solely by country of origin when there are some eho may be happy & able to adapt. So it’s not going to happen any time soon, if ever.

          Do you think at some stage of the history on New Zealand there was mass immigration of those who did not fit the current cultural norms?

          Yes. They took over.

          Should they have been allowed in?

          No. But Maori couldn’t stop them. There is the lesson.

          Reply
  5. lurcher1948

     /  15th July 2018

    So Trump lovers,here’s your man.dosnt look like a bright spark…sorry for upsetting your Sunday

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  15th July 2018

      No offence taken, Lurchy. This was the moment Trumpy demonstrated what he would do to Obama if he was his proctologist .

      Reply
      • lurcher1948

         /  15th July 2018

        I thought he was showing his fan base the finger he wipes his butt with

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  15th July 2018

          No, Lurchy. This was during the presidential debate with Hilary. You know, when he stalked her onstage.

          Reply
  6. Alan Wilkinson

     /  15th July 2018

    There is no Muslim country I would want to live in. Why do Muslims want to live in our country?

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  15th July 2018

      My guess: They want what we have, and they haven’t. But they don’t want us. Little do they realize without us infidels they will have a society similar to what they migrated from.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  15th July 2018

        Of course. Another despotic impoverished hell-hole just like the one they came from.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  15th July 2018

          hey Al….if you figure out how and why places like Iraq,Afghanistan,Syria ,etc became hell holes you would be able to answer your own…question.

          Reply
  7. wooden goat

     /  15th July 2018

    Hi all – thanks for your replies.

    In response to PG – I believe that Islam is *actually* dangerous.
    Fourteen hundred years of blood-soaked invasion of countries from North Africa to India (Timurlane) to Indonesia doesn’t lie. Neither do the Islamic texts – the Koran has over 500 verses that are hateful towards non-Muslims, and

    What about the sexual assaults in Cologne?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/07/10/leaked-document-says-2000-men-allegedly-assaulted-1200-german-women-on-new-years-eve/?utm_term=.f92f9a254487

    Quote – “Officials have linked the sexual assaults to the influx of refugees. “There is a connection between the emergence of this phenomenon and the rapid migration in 2015,” Holger Münch, president of the German Federal Crime Police Office, told Sueddeutsche Zeitung. Many suspects had originally come to Germany from North African countries rather than Syria, officials said.”
    – end quote

    Is that not reason for concern?

    What about Sweden?
    https://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/06/29/sweden-police-commissioner-begs-help-no-go-zones-rises/

    Quote – “Despite the fact the Swedish government refuses to keep statistics on the national origin of suspects, many in Sweden have suspected that migrants make up a large proportion of criminals. The suspicion was confirmed earlier this year when police officer Peter Springare wrote on Facebook that the **vast majority of criminal cases that crossed his desk were committed by migrants**.
    – end quote

    I’d say that with its 1400-year violent history, the hate-filled Islamic texts and events in recent years (like those shown above), there is more than enough evidence to show that Islam is a dangerous ideology – all the more so because it has a thin veneer of religion on top of the part that is actually the problem.
    However, I’ll leave it at that…. 🙂
    – w.g.

    Reply
    • You’re cherry picking from around the world.

      I think we have much more real and pressing problems in New Zealand.

      Reply
      • Trevors_elbow

         /  16th July 2018

        Iraq was a hell hole under Saddam…. he used poisonous gas on his own citizens… they only reason it wasn’t fractured as it is now was Saddams brutal repression via his secret police and the army…

        As for Afghanistan it’s always been a mess.. go read a little of its history….

        Syria and Libya were not pleasure zones but the US is culpable in their current states… but again secret police, repression and the army governed both countries before the US meddled

        Reply
  8. wooden goat

     /  15th July 2018

    Kitty Catkin – “The halal food is another myth, The fact that it’s available doesn’t mean that it was demanded…”

    I beg to differ……
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/western-leader/99432776/new-zealand-muslims-campaign-for-kfc-to-serve-halal-food

    So it is that the “frog in the pot” gets warmer…… and warmer…….

    What about this? A little “puff piece” saying that “Islam doesn’t condone terrorism”…..
    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/terror-attack-prompts-nz-muslims-speak-out

    Oh dear….. they shouldn’t have said that…..

    Check this out – quotes straight from the Quran itself –
    https://www.answering-islam.org/Index/T/terror.html

    ” The Qur’an declares:
    Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers! (3:151)

    “Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. ”
    (8:12-13)

    There are *many* more verses similar to this.

    This would seem to be useful proof that Muslims in this country are not being honest with us.

    – w.g.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  15th July 2018

      The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community are not considered true Muslims by other Muslim sects if I remember correctly. They may as well be Infidels..

      Reply
    • Griff

       /  16th July 2018

      The christian bible declarers.
      But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
      Luke 19:27

      Christians did as Jesus asked.

      Eye witness account of the first christian crusade .
      Raymond of Aguiles

      “Wonderful sights were to be seen. Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shoot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one’s way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services are normally chanted … in the temple and the porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. Indeed it was a just and splendid judgement of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies.”

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  16th July 2018

        The christian bible declarers.
        But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
        Luke 19:27
        Christians did as Jesus asked.

        Jesus didn’t actually specifically ask anyone to do that. One of his parable story characters asked his servants to do that to HIS enemies.

        Reply

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