Free Speech – are we for or against it?

Post from Gezza:


“OPINION: It seems I’m as Aryan as you can get, with a DNA test to prove it, but I’m less thrilled about it than Lauren Southern, the suitably blonde agitator who wasn’t allowed to speak at the Auckland Council’s Bruce Mason Centre.

The 23-year-old self-described journalist calls to mind an inane pop song once banned by the BBC, Jump Up and Down and Wave Your Knickers in the Air.

She’s white and proud and wants to kick arse about the accident of her birth, for which she has no more reason to preen than the rest of us whiteys. But boy, is she shrill, is she self-righteous, and is she in-your-face provocative.

Rosemary McLeod: The Free Speech Coalition is wasting its money.

ROSEMARY MCLEOD

Rosemary McLeod: The Free Speech Coalition is wasting its money.

I’ve taken a dislike to her. In case you wondered. Southern and fellow Canadian Stefan Molyneux are internet identities with a far-Right agenda that would have appalled Bruce Mason, a leading Kiwi playwright and sensible liberal.”

More…

… … …
As I posted the other day, Rosemary McLeod is at it – a classic liberal feminist, playing the “Nazi Aryan Maiden” card, without citing any actual evidence to back up what she appears to have heard elsewhere.

She, like the rest of us, has no idea exactly what these two were going to say, & she is appalled that Don Brash is in favour of allowing people to express “racist” views. I happen to agree with Brash on this.

My take: Molyneux is a sleazy character who, among other fad topics of appeal to the low-IQ North American conservative to far right spectrum reportedly peddles the debunked “IQ is linked to race” theory. I haven’t yet seen him doing this – but I wouldn’t be surprised if he does.

if you’ve watched a lot of his 90 -120 minute plus interminable online harangues – as I now have – after half an hour of his superciliously snide side-comments you can quickly write him off as awful to listen to, devious, a frequent distorter of facts & outright liar, whose false claims among the facts are easily disproved and dismissed. Which is what should happen.

So far I haven’t heard him directly advocating that whites are superior, although the hoary old ‘race-based IQ’ revival he is said to promote carries that obvious implication, disguised as it is with the false claim that Ashkanazi Jews are top of the high IQ list and whites are only at third from top in the pecking order.

Southern is another story. She doesn’t lie. She holds strong views about the values of Western European culture & systems & argues against people and groups who practice white racism & have cultural practices, ideas & values that conflict with or are inconsistent with them, & challenges those who allow, support, or encourage people traffickers to keep up the flow of floods of people from such countries into Western countries, where there is evidence of the real & projected adverse outcomes & impacts on the host populations & their own cultures that these sudden massive influxes create.

Both of them seem to have views also on the impact of feminism and its attendant anti-male rhetoric & influence in modern society because of the negative outcome statistics for, basically, emasculated, anxiety-ridden, lost young men – often fatherless – who have grown up indoctrinated by a female-friendly childcare & education system and are now showing up quite prominently in sociological studies apparently believing that being typically male makes them violent, dominating, evil people, & so never become young men & never get out there & realise their potential.

That, contrary to the incessant clamour of strident feminists, stats show that, in the US at least, ‘the system’ is actually now benefiting women far more than men, something which is not known and/or acknowledged by feminazis.

These are valid issues that need an airing & to be discussed in rational debate. I have never heard Southern claim anything about whites or females being superior.

In this article I think McLeod proceeds to display her own intellectual superiority blinkers. I think she rather proves their case that free speech is now actually being suppressed by such people as Rosemary who just don’t want to hear & debate this.

Leave a comment

130 Comments

  1. David

     /  July 20, 2018

    Thank you Gezza, saved me the effort of finding out more about these two. I like her message and as a father (solo Dad of 2 boys for 13 years) I worry about the same things she does, and the excellent Jordan Peterson, with the suicide rate for young men seeing an appalling increase globally.
    I probably wouldnt agree with the guy all that much but I am surprised by the opinion pieces in the newspapers advocating for curbs on free speech for people they dont agree with, what if the pendulem swings and lefty views were deemed dangerous..which they are and her lot were no platformed.

    Reply
  2. Blazer

     /  July 20, 2018

    ‘She, like the rest of us, has no idea exactly what these two were going to say’
    This may suit your argument,but is hardly plausible.
    The discussion seems to have lost its focus.These 2 have been denied council venues to put on their show.As alternatives are available its a storm in a teacup.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 20, 2018

      Remind me what Goff’s reason for denying them a council venue was?

      Reply
    • Griff

       /  July 20, 2018

      Indeed
      De platformed is not the same as stopped from speaking.
      I am certain there are hundreds of alternative venues within driving distance of Ak they could use.
      I am just as sure that many venues would also refuse to offer them a platform.
      I am also fairly certain that many complaining about free speech would have a different attitude if the council allowed its venues to be used by radical Muslims pushing sharia and jihad.

      Reply
      • David

         /  July 20, 2018

        As a ratepayer I would rather not have an eco loon from Greenpeace, given their law breaking, access to council owned facilities to preach their hatred of capitalism but sometimes people with different opinions wont have access to private facilities.

        Reply
      • MaureenW

         /  July 20, 2018

        The people in question don’t push sharia or jihad or any equivalent of it.

        Reply
        • Griff

           /  July 20, 2018

          No they push alt right ideas.
          My uncles thought a war against their sort of nonsense.
          You might have heard of it .
          WWII
          Against the fascist far right .

          Reply
          • Alloytoo

             /  July 20, 2018

            Actually, against National Socialism, far left.

            Reply
            • Griff

               /  July 20, 2018

              That is nonsense
              There is a national socialist commenting on kb
              Despite the frequent claim that national socialism is far left many on KB agree with his position.
              What confuses some is the extremes of either side of politics must become more authoritarian to enforce their ideas on the majority.
              Hence horse shoe theory that says the extremes of the political spectrum are closer to each other than the center .

            • Gezza

               /  July 20, 2018

              National socialism if The Nazis are his model is fascist:

              Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies. – Wikipedia

          • MaureenW

             /  July 20, 2018

            Express ideas to those who want to listen either because they agree with some of those ideas or those who want to debate those ideas because they don’t. How scary.

            Reply
      • High Flying Duck

         /  July 20, 2018

        De-platformed for seemingly political reasons. A terrible precedent and one that cannot be left to stand.
        I assume your uncles fought a war against oppression and subjugation of free speech – you are contorting your ideology to justify silencing views you disagree with.
        Far left and far right are so similar the semantic arguments become meaningless. Neither bear any semblance to the general right / left political differences of the mainstream.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  July 20, 2018

          ‘ seemingly political reasons’…we have disowned Goff….we swapped him for a man with a conscience=Jim.

          Reply
          • Lauren Southern is a suicide blonde, as the old saying goes; dyed by her own hand. No doubt she does this to highlight her pure Aryanism, the silly tart.

            Her so-called graduation photo with the guns must have been a purely attention-seeking exercise as she only went to university for two years. A Claytons graduation ?

            Reply
  3. sorethumb

     /  July 20, 2018

    My take: Molyneux is a sleazy character who, among other fad topics of appeal to the low-IQ North American conservative to far right spectrum reportedly peddles the debunked “IQ is linked to race” theory. I haven’t yet seen him doing this – but I wouldn’t be surprised if he does.
    ……………….
    IQ is linked to race

    While most people will agree that finding a genetic explanation for an elevated rate of disease is important, they often draw the line there. Finding genetic influences on a propensity for disease is one thing, they argue, but looking for such influences on behavior and cognition is another.

    But whether we like it or not, that line has already been crossed. A recent study led by the economist Daniel Benjamin compiled information on the number of years of education from more than 400,000 people, almost all of whom were of European ancestry. After controlling for differences in socioeconomic background, he and his colleagues identified 74 genetic variations that are over-represented in genes known to be important in neurological development, each of which is incontrovertibly more common in Europeans with more years of education than in Europeans with fewer years of education.

    Reply
    • Griff

       /  July 20, 2018

      As an Aspie I have read much of the research.
      Asperger syndrome is linked to the genetics of high IQ however Asperger’s is a negative when it comes to other facets of the human condition. High IQ is not the only potential genetic advantage that humans have in their genome. Looking only at IQ in an attempt to justify your belief that white men are superior is a form of naive cherry picking .

      Reply
      • Corky

         /  July 20, 2018

        ”Looking only at IQ in an attempt to justify your belief that white men are superior is a form of naive cherry picking .”

        So, what other factors are at play that have made white men superior if IQ is only one facet associated with white superiority?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  July 20, 2018

          Black men & women with access to the same environmental conditions & education do just as well as well as whiteys. They just have a harder job availing themselves of them & using them to their full potential. And when they do, they tend to want to go into areas like law & community employment to serve their communities, rather than rocket science & physics.

          A concern I have is American black celebrities & some entertainers for their own enrichment promoting “yo bro” rap culture so heavily & dumbing their youth down. We already know educated blacks can be every bit as sophisticated and articulate as any educated white professional. It’s a cultural problem – but a youth culture impediment, not an African culture one.

          Reply
        • Griff

           /  July 20, 2018

          Examine you comment and find were the content is not congruent with my statement.
          Our Maths system is based on Arabic research from a millennium ago as is many concepts in medicine. The Greeks and Romans are not “white” as such and many of their ideas permeate our culture.
          The Chinese explored much of the world long before Europeans discovered ocean voyaging as did the Polynesians . South American cultures has complex civilizations long before we manged the same as did Egypt.

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  July 20, 2018

            I have already stated time and again, Whitey was swinging from branch to branch while other cultures were laying the foundations of our sciences.

            That was then. It is not NOW. Something has changed.

            Reply
            • Griff

               /  July 20, 2018

              We discarded the shackles of religion during the enlightenment and discovered secular democracy.

            • Gezza

               /  July 20, 2018

              Yes. We also sparked & went through the industrial & now technological revolutions & they generated the need for an educated population. Education, built on centuries of accumulated knowledge from the work of many previous cultures, gave ours a massive leg up.

              We also used it to kill ourselves in almost unimaginable numbers twice last century, so we know that baser, more brutal ape drives are still just as present in us below the surface as in other cultures yet to experience our advantages & break out of the ancient, small village tribal loyalties that hold them back.

            • Corky

               /  July 20, 2018

              ‘We discarded the shackles of religion during the enlightenment and discovered secular democracy.”

              Yes, we did. And for the better. That split had to come. Religion kept the general populace in ignorance. It will eventually join up again once man has progressed.

              Did you know Sir Isaac Newton was an alchemist? And science was only a side branch of his alchemical studies? The same goes for Arabian
              alchemists come scientists….Chinese ones too.

              So don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. There is religion for the masses…and there is enlightened religion.

            • Griff

               /  July 20, 2018

              A religion is sometime a source of happiness, and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong. The great trouble with religion – any religion – is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both.
              Robert A. Heinlein,

            • Gezza

               /  July 20, 2018

              Charles Manson was hugely influenced by Robert Heilen’s Stranger In A Strange Land.

            • I would not imagine that Newton’s alchemy studies are news to most people.

            • Corky

               /  July 20, 2018

              ”One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both.”

              I broke religion into two streams.

              ”There is religion for the masses…and there is enlightened religion.”

              Alchemy is one of the enlightened religions. However, it must be practiced, not parroted. Then you can come to understand faith isn’t an abstract concept, but a living force that can be manipulated to produce concrete results and insights. Newton is an example of that.

              As for Kitties nonsense about Newtons alchemy studies not being news to most people…well, that’s nonsense. In my debates with different folk only one knew Newton was an alchemist. It’s not that this is a secret, it’s just lightly mentioned at best. Or obliquely criticized and downplayed.

              Here is an example of what I mean.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton

            • Griff

               /  July 20, 2018

              Enlightened religion.
              Oxymoron.

              Most intelligent peploe would be aware that Newton was an Alchemist.
              Alchemy was simply Chemistry before we developed Chemistry.

          • sorethumb

             /  July 20, 2018

            it isn’t for me to defend the data but it seems robust. I just sit back and listen to peterson, Murray and co. I have yet to see an expert debunk what they say.

            The knives are out for Peterson and he would be slaughtered if what he said was wrong?

            Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  July 20, 2018

        Looking only at IQ in an attempt to justify your belief that white men are superior is a form of naive cherry picking .
        ………………………..
        That is a slur, implying anyone who believe whites are on average more intelligent to whites goes around with a hard on. Your average white person isn’t likely to go around feeling very to anyone. On the other hand you need an IQ of 120 to be an engineer and build infrastructure. It matters at the margins where certain groups are more likely to be delving into your intestines with a scalpel. On the other hand if you believe some groups with low IQ are more likely to be criminals – there is evidence for that.

        Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  July 20, 2018

        @Griff – “Looking only at IQ in an attempt to justify your belief that white men are superior is a form of naive cherry picking”

        Well, yes, that too … along with being a form of racism … or a “naive cherry-picking” theory that’s imminently translatable into racist action …

        Reply
        • Arabs invented 0 and, I hear, coffee.

          The Chinese were far ahead of the West in civilisation for centuries, and so was India. Modesty forbids me to expound on the contribution of Jews to civilisation..But we were using txt thsnds of yrs ago.

          I was brought up hearing that the Irish were saints and poets, scholars and storytellers when the English were running around on all fours and eating each other. A slight exaggeration, perhaps. But not much of a one.

          Reply
          • When my mother heard that I was marrying an Englishman, her first words were that she supposed that he couldn’t help it….

            Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 20, 2018

      He’s only basically talking Ashkenazi Jews in there, and in a particular context regarding a particular subset – those with very high IQ’s. He doesn’t contend there that other racial or ethnic groups as a whole are intinsically smarter than others. Like all reputable psychologists, sociologists & commentstors he qualifies many of his statements with wise caveats – although I now notice with Peterson how much he plays up to an audience & is stridently insistent on the correctness of his own views.

      I watched the New Zealander Flynn below too. Nodded off – it’s a problem with Molyneux videos. Peterson wakes one up. Similar caveats & cautions. And he focuses mainly on environmental impacts on IQ over time, not race, (Obviously people in disadvantaged circumstances who perpetuate them aren’t going to get any smarter, but watching the white trash folk who regularly appear on the Jeremy Kyle show gives a pretty clear picture of how dumb people at the bottom producing more dumb people in any population occurs across the spectrum of ethnicities.

      I’m curious why this preoccupation with scientific racism is so important to you. What are you trying to do with it?

      Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  July 21, 2018

        Gezza
        I’m curious why this preoccupation with scientific racism is so important to you. What are you trying to do with it?
        ………
        why wouldn’t you want to see a try picture over a PC one?
        There are costs if we run society on false assumptions. Charles Murray covers the effects of IQ on placement at universities.
        Basically we False paradigm of human human nature therefore “racism came with European Colonisation” etc.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  July 21, 2018

          No I’m happy to see a true picture over a politically correct false assumption. I’m all for that.

          If Murray has a problem with affirmative action type programmes lowering the academic entry standards for university courses for coloured students (I’m assuming), squeezing out those who should be getting in & leading to disasters, deaths & sundry mayhem in, say, the medicine or engineering or industrial fields then I can see how that would be a problem & I have no issues with that being pointed out & debated.

          If he’s concerned that taxpayers are paying for these people to go into the Humanities field to do silly research like analysing surveys of the feelings of a tiny fraction of the 2% of people who don’t consider themselves to be either male or female, and within that either hetero, gay, or bisexual – and who are just attention-seeing self-entitled whiny little weirdos to force everyone to consider their oddballness important enuf to be given celebrity treatment – then I think that should be up for debate too.

          But that’s just a case of telling the universities to stop lowering academic entry standards.

          Why are you so fixated on the contention that IQ is race based? Most researchers in the IQ field caution against taking the concept too far in drawing conclusions about that because DNA research & genomes analysis is proving people in racial groups are far more ethnically mixed than was known,

          And because people of any group at the very top end of the current IQ test data statistically do very well for themselves in life, but for those below that level in any population the factors that predict for success in Western societies are many, & include environmental factors such as social status, upbringing, education & culture.

          And further, that people at the bottom end of the IQ scale tend not to. That this is also true of white people is immediately evident to anyone who watches the white trash wreckages who regularly appear on the UK (& probably US) Jeremy Kyle shows.

          So – not sure why you like to constantly seem to be suggesting that people of different races are superior to others, when the researchers themselves aren’t particularly concerned with this & don’t draw that conclusion.

          If this is NOT what you are saying, then I have no problem.

          Reply
  4. sorethumb

     /  July 20, 2018

    FASTER EVOLUTION MEANS MORE ETHNIC DIFFERENCES

    A wall has long protected respectable evolutionary inquiry from accusations of aiding and abetting racism. That wall is the belief that genetic change happens at such a glacial pace that there simply was not time, in the 50,000 years since humans spread out from Africa, for selection pressures to have altered the genome in anything but the most trivial way (e.g., changes in skin color and nose shape were adaptive responses to cold climates). Evolutionary psychology has therefore focused on the Pleistocene era – the period from about 1.8 million years ago to the dawn of agriculture — during which our common humanity was forged for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

    But the writing is on the wall. Russian scientists showed in the 1990s that a strong selection pressure (picking out and breeding only the tamest fox pups in each generation) created what was — in behavior as well as body — essentially a new species in just 30 generations. That would correspond to about 750 years for humans. Humans may never have experienced such a strong selection pressure for such a long period, but they surely experienced many weaker selection pressures that lasted far longer, and for which some heritable personality traits were more adaptive than others. It stands to reason that local populations (not continent-wide “races”) adapted to local circumstances by a process known as “co-evolution” in which genes and cultural elements change over time and mutually influence each other. The best documented example of this process is the co-evolution of genetic mutations that maintain the ability to fully digest lactose in adulthood with the cultural innovation of keeping cattle and drinking their milk. This process has happened several times in the last 10,000 years, not to whole “races” but to tribes or larger groups that domesticated cattle.

    https://www.edge.org/response-detail/10376

    Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  July 20, 2018

      I read that 8% (?) of the human genome is post moving out of Africa.

      Reply
  5. Corky

     /  July 20, 2018

    Ah, Rosemary McLeod. I had a frank and vigorous exchange of emails with her ten years ago. Seems she’s still at it.

    Reply
  6. lurcher1948

     /  July 20, 2018

    Isn’t free speech great?on a nearby right wing blog they like it so much that they can block any poster by down ticking him enough say 40 downticks,then the right then brag how clever they all were getting rid of the comment, they truly like free speech on the right as long as it’s want they want to…hear

    Reply
    • Grimm

       /  July 20, 2018

      Soooo, the commentor that got 40 downticks, still got to comment, right?

      Don’t confuse the right to speak, with that speech being judged as stupid.

      Reply
  7. sorethumb

     /  July 20, 2018

    So far I haven’t heard him directly advocating that whites are superior, although the hoary old ‘race-based IQ’ revival he is said to promote carries that obvious implication, disguised as it is with the false claim that Ashkanazi Jews are top of the high IQ list and whites are only at third from top in the pecking order.
    …………………..
    F for comprehension
    Comments
    Expecting black students to keep up academically with whites and East Asians is akin to demanding a victim of polio keep up with Marathon runners: It’s unfair to those who are more talented and cruel to those who are less.

    It is a bell curve result where bell curves don’t exactly line up.

    Reply
  8. PartisanZ

     /  July 20, 2018

    What about the economic paradigm that essentially demanded women move into the workforce? And moreover, in many cases, created the economic necessity for them to do so?

    Or, at least in part, manufactured the ‘demand’ from them to work, without any commensurate demand (or financial viability … or acculturation) for men to become, or even choose, full-time child-rearing?

    In Western societies governed by corporate-capitalist-political elites, where we know without a doubt that almost everything happens “top down”, are we really going to maintain that the now Rightie-despised ‘feminist’ movement was entirely a “bottom up” phenomenon …?

    @Gezza – “That, contrary to the incessant clamour of strident feminists, stats show that, in the US at least, ‘the system’ is actually now benefiting women far more than men, something which is not known and/or acknowledged by feminazis.

    These are valid issues that need an airing & to be discussed in rational debate.”

    Whoops! You blew it! Wild, unsubstantiated claim – “benefiting women far more than men” – followed by a derisory, derogatory name – “feminazis” – is hardly offering the subject “rational debate”, is it?

    Let’s see the stats, shall we?

    The Right Brigade similarly claim that the system here is “actually now benefiting Maori far more than Pakeha” …

    I have it on good advice from a lawyer that the Free Speech Coalition’s legal challenge will fail miserably on exactly the basis Blazer outlines immediately above …

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  July 20, 2018

      ”I have it on good advice from a lawyer that the Free Speech Coalition’s legal challenge will fail miserably on exactly the basis Blazer outlines immediately above …”

      You must think members of the Free Speech Coalition are morons…especially given they have a lawyer on board- Stephen Franks .

      The point is they have stood up to be counted. Hopefully they are setting a template others can follow because this war is just starting. And it’s going to get ugly.

      Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  July 20, 2018

        ”I have it on good advice from a lawyer that the Free Speech Coalition’s legal challenge will fail miserably on exactly the basis Blazer outlines immediately above …”
        …………………………….
        As far as I can see Section 16 of the HR Act contradicts the right to free speech but has a high bar. Eg the Atlantic has argued that Isis use the correct interpretation of Islam. Or can you ban them (as Espiner suggests ) on the basis that they say tat (on average) blacks have a lower IQ than whites?

        Reply
      • Blazer

         /  July 20, 2018

        having a lawyer ‘on board’ is moot.
        In court there is usually a winner and a ..loser.
        Its a flashpoint ,faux outrage, publicity stunt…nothing more.

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  July 20, 2018

          You missed my point, Blazer. I’m sure the Coalition want to win. But my point is they have taken a stand and said ‘no more.’ That type of action wouldn’t have happened a few years ago. Whether it is a publicity stunt, or not, isn’t important for free speech advocates.

          And who can we thank? Why President Trumpy. He has brought the foaming hate and nastiness the Left have seething under the surface of their ” we care” bs to the surface. And now people are waking up.

          God speed Mr President…and thankyou for saving us…from ourselves.

          Reply
      • High Flying Duck

         /  July 20, 2018

        Statement of claim (as summarised on KB):

        – The decision to cancel was made before a health and safety plan was due to be submitted,
        showing that health and safety concerns must be phony
        – One of the plaintiffs had already booked airfares from Dunedin to attend, so Goff’s actions
        have caused people to be out of pocket
        – The organisers did not expect the venue to provide security. They are very experienced in
        providing security for events including several larger events in Australia
        – RFA refused to engage with the organisers about their alleged security concerns
        – Goff said on Radio NZ that it was his decision to cancel the licence but now claims it was
        made independently
        – The organisers were unable to get a private venue at ASB Showgrounds as Goff is a vice
        patron of them

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  July 20, 2018

          love to know who this is!- One of the plaintiffs had already booked airfares from Dunedin to attend, so Goff’s actions’

          action will get short shrift…but keep the far right with something to rant about.-

          Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 20, 2018

      Whoops! You blew it! Wild, unsubstantiated claim – “benefiting women far more than men” … Let’s see the stats, shall we?

      No I didn’t. Watch some Jordan Peterson. I believe he sources his claims & stats beneath his own videos. Then when you have located some to debunk, happy to have that discussion.

      – followed by a derisory, derogatory name – “feminazis” – is hardly offering the subject “rational debate”, is it?

      It’s an opinion piece. In my thinking make a personal distinction between normal women, feminists, & radical feminists – otherwise known as man-hating feminists, or feminazis. They are a small but very vocal radical group. Far feminists, if you like. And it’s those women I’m referring to. I just didn’t want to muddy my main point by writing out huge TLDR screeds explaining all that, like some people do.

      And you have commented, indicating you want to have a debate. Are you saying you don’t want to be rational?

      Reply
  9. -D

     /  July 20, 2018

    Whether you believe him or not I don’t think Stefan Molyneux comes across in this interview as provocative. He does voice opinions about race and IQ that, as far as I can tell, are valid topics for discussion and potentially quite key to understanding some important things going on in the world.

    Why would anyone want to stifle discussion such as this?

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 20, 2018

      They’re perfectly valid topics for discussion. What he doesn’t do – or I’ve not seen him do it yet – is DEBATE the Race-based IQ (also known as scientific racism) theories with one or more professional psychologists who have actually analysed & updated the research, has up to the minute, not old, skewed data, & who disputes the research.

      But that is precisely my point – the views dhould be heard & debunked – if they are debunksble. Banning him only gives him a bigger audience, not a smaller one.

      Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  July 20, 2018

      Huh! Why would I listen to the opinion of a self-confessed “amateur” with, according to him, a mass of scientific evidence, who, when he debates these issues always demands links himself … ?

      If there are “professional” scientists and experts with this evidence, why aren’t they debating it?

      IMHO the whole debate hinges on a massive transumption anyhow: Western, therefore Caucasian or White Society, racially defined, and its way of measuring IQ is superior to all the other societies and civilizations …

      Hence, by White standards, Australian Aboriginals are IQ bottom-feeders. This is what justified them being hunted like animals back in the day yeah? And maybe what justifies their neglect today?

      Who are the greatest architects in the world? The great engineering civilizations who enlist vast technology, masses of labour – including often slave or indentured labour – and voluminous materials sourced elsewhere to build monumental structures … or Aborigines … who use sticks and branches sourced from within metres and dig a shallow hollow in the earth to protect from the elements …

      That’s smart if you ask me, but White IQ doesn’t measure it …

      Was Western civilization that much better than the sophisticated civilizations they found in the Americas? No … It was simply more powerful … even more brutal … and felt it had to destroy rather than learn from them …

      That’s fucking dumb if you ask me, but White IQ doesn’t consider that …

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  July 20, 2018

        I agree it’s a valid topic for discussion by the way … that’s why I’m discussing it …

        Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  July 21, 2018

        Hence, by White standards, Australian Aboriginals are IQ bottom-feeders. This is what justified them being hunted like animals back in the day yeah? And maybe what justifies their neglect today?
        ………………….
        Aboriginal Upper House seat proposal rejected by Tasmanian Government, Indigenous group
        http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-03/direct-aboriginal-seat-rejected-by-government-indigenous-groups/8322202

        Average IQ 64?

        Reply
        • ‘by White standards’…’Average IQ’

          How do ‘whites’ get on on an Aborigine intelligence test?

          “This is what justified them being hunted like animals back in the day”

          No. Wanting to steal land, and having superior weapons and transport, did not justify slaughter and genocide at all.

          Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  July 20, 2018

      He wants to fix problems in society by telling Blacks they have lower IQs than Whites because of their race … Okay … So that’s actually a counter-productive or ‘fucking dumb’ idea to begin with … but okay … its worth discussing …

      Like, go to Africa and tell the starving millions they’re starving because they’re Black, and therefore not as smart as Whites … and its genetic and more-or-less transmutable …

      I don’t hear any suggestions about HOW to do the ‘fixing’ … (though I admit I kinda skimmed it, so correct me if I’m wrong) …

      I think that lack of HOW to fix problems is because, translated into socio-political (and even economic) ACTION, you’ve got something quite ugly that looks, swims and quacks like a duck … and cannot be dressed up to look like anything other than a duck …

      The money’s to be made from speaking and writing about it … not from putting it into action … not from actualizing it in the world …

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  July 20, 2018

        The biggest problems in Africa currently seem to be most commonly corruption – at all levels – largely the result of ethnically tribal politics still dominating the voters’ choices, Muslim extremism, exploiting the misery that this corruption & tribalism, creates, inter-tribal warfare, & lack of education & the development & employment opportunities that could flow from it.

        Power & money is concentrated in the hands of crooked & /or incompetent politicians. There’s not a lot the West can do about it. Even where Western companies operate with sound business practices they can’t determine how their money gets spent by the governments who take it.

        This is why the migrants fleeing the place for Europe are doing it. They simply csn’t get jobs & can’t see things changing. And their educated elite having been doing the same thing, legally, for two decades, according to those I’ve seen discussing this very subject on Aljazeera tv. Some say they would really love to go back & put their skills to work developing the resources & opportunities they know are there – but they simply csn’t & it frustrates them. They can’t see the situation changing.

        It’s long past the point where blaming it on their colonial past is a credible excuse for the failure of their democracies to deliver good governance, and social & development programmes, and none of the young black people I’ve heard discussing the problems of Africa, except black South Africans, do.

        If they can get on top of this problem, there’s no reason Africans can’t thrive in every field of human endeavour that everyone else csn, in my view. But it’s a huge task for them to fix the problem of ignorance, incompetence & tribalist corruption.

        The Chinese are becoming particularly adept at exploiting the greed & incompetence of politicians there. While Western companies have to enter into joint venture/joint benefit type arrangements or face criticism & sanctions, the Chinese are getting African governments to dign up to development project deals that if unaffordable (as some possibly will be) the state-controlled Chinese development company owns the whole port or railway or dam & electricty plsnt or whatever the project is.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  July 20, 2018

          Tribalism is fear of the outside world. It leads to corruption and injustice and eventually killings and dictatorships.

          You can see elements of it on both sides of the political divide in the US.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  July 20, 2018

            Not the tribalism they’re talking about. They’re talking about inter-tribal & village-based fights & rivalry of the pre-colonial kind that fundamentally hasn’t evolved. It has continued – & extends into, & dominates, the poltical system.

            Reply
        • David

           /  July 20, 2018

          Good post.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  July 20, 2018

            Never mind the Raj Rover David ..heres a real mans machine…

            Reply
            • David

               /  July 20, 2018

              A jeep with a Mark-19 photoshopped onto it is really not up to much. It looks like a real pain to change a tire too. Land Rovers have been obsolete for for quite some time.
              An Extenda is what you want.

      • sorethumb

         /  July 21, 2018

        He wants to fix problems in society by telling Blacks they have lower IQs than Whites because of their race … Okay … So that’s actually a counter-productive or ‘fucking dumb’ idea to begin with … but okay … its worth discussing …
        ………….
        Misrepresenting is juvenile.

        Reply
  10. sorethumb

     /  July 20, 2018

    The plethora of left-wing journalists saying Race and IQ have been debunked seems related to their desire to simply ban views they can not handle.
    As Chris Trotter asks:

    Do We Really Lack the Courage to Debate the Alt-Right? Do We Really Lack the Ideas to Defeat Them?
    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2018/07/do-we-really-lack-courage-to-debate-alt.html

    Reply
  11. sorethumb

     /  July 20, 2018

    On the left, race and IQ plus population (15 kids) are to climate science on a right-wing blog.

    Reply
  12. High Flying Duck

     /  July 20, 2018
    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 20, 2018

      Oops. Didn’t see that. Posted about this below. I must try & find out exactly what it is they are speaking about in Oz. Like, opposition to Political Correctness & supression of free speech? Feminist extremism? Downside of mass immigration of Muslims? They’re getting lumped together (even by me) as both pushing the same themes, & there’s probsbly overlap, but the thing is we don’t know what they intend to say here.

      And if its bullshit, I’d rather hear it & have it called out for what is than have dummies rushing to view their webcasts on YouTube just because they’ve been ‘banned’, believing anything untrue, & never hearing the counter facts.

      Reply
    • Blazer

       /  July 20, 2018

      Book your tickets…interest is high,and I heard she might be appearing in a…bikini!

      Reply
  13. High Flying Duck

     /  July 20, 2018

    Outstanding column from Liam Hehir on this issue. Too long to post, but well worth a read:

    However, there are more sober sceptics of broad freedom of speech protections out there. They are often at the commanding heights of the academy, media and culture. They are serious and deserve to be taken seriously.

    And their critiques are having their effect. A study published by the prestigious Brookings Institution last year shows marked hostility to freedom of expression from students. One-fifth supported using force to silence people making “offensive and hurtful statements”.

    So what’s the argument against broad free speech protections?

    One common criticism is a boiled-down version of “the paradox of tolerance”, as articulated by philosopher Karl Popper. The argument is that tolerance for the intolerant puts the latter in power. The intolerant will then destroy tolerance for everyone.

    This view is often presented in the form of an internet meme. It is often flourished as if it were some kind of definitive answer to hand-wringing about free speech concerns. What it really amounts to is an argument in favour of destroying tolerance in order to save it.

    Popper did say that, in some circumstances, the suppression of speech may be required to halt intolerant movements. But this was something he saw as a last resort, not a first response. His argument did not support the early interventions demanded today.

    Popper could not resolve who will determine what speech is a threat to a tolerant society. This leads us to one of the biggest and most persistent failings of liberals today: a curious refusal to look around corners. Time and time again, the rationalisations we make and the precedents we set today are used against us tomorrow.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/105502399/donld-trumps-fake-news-cries-are-far-from-the-only-threats-over-who-says-what

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  July 20, 2018

      if the duo in question are so passionate about getting their message across…they should have used their initiative and booked another venue….wee bit thick are they!

      Reply
      • High Flying Duck

         /  July 20, 2018

        Your ability to miss the point is legendary. Councils and/or Mayors should not have the authority to ban speakers based on their political leanings. Full stop.
        Also, the Council cancelled the booking at late notice with no explanation, limiting their ability to find other suitable options.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  July 20, 2018

          no you miss the shakespearean point….’much ado..about nothing’.
          Btw Goff is a typical right winger in the mould of Douglas,Prebble and other miscreants.

          Reply
    • This AW is a truism:

      “,,,,tolerance for the intolerant puts the latter in power. The intolerant will then destroy tolerance for everyone”

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  July 20, 2018

        more donations needed..Sky News….’Southern has been hit with a $A68,000 ($NZ74,000) bill by Victorian police for protecting her Melbourne event…’

        Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  July 20, 2018

      Quite. You don’t have to suppress speech to challenge and defeat intolerance.

      Reply
    • High Flying Duck

       /  July 20, 2018

      Tim Watkin (probably as left as Hehir is right) also has a good article on the issue on the Pundit:

      “My concern is the people who have slipped into talking about ‘hate speech’ as views that “insult’ others. In social media comments and news stories, I was concerned to see comments from people on all sides of the political debate equating ‘insult’ and ‘offense’ with ‘hate’. Even Phil Goff fell into that one.

      That is a terribly dangerous and unwise stance, in my opinion. We have every right to insult each other. Indeed, I struggle to think of positive social change that hasn’t involved offending and insulting some. Sure, punching down should be resisted and the most vulnerable defended. But we do not defend victims of prejudice by banning the expression of certain opinions. Rather, as I argued in my other post on this topic, we defend them by winning the argument and exposing the flaws in the prejudice.

      Sure, I understand the ‘that’s easy for you to say’ argument, but for all our sakes we need to ask the victims of prejudice to be robust enough to withstand the insults. We ask them to pay a price for freedom, a price that only some have to pay but that we all profit from.”

      https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/who-do-we-think-we-are-the-free-speech-debate

      Reply
  14. PartisanZ

     /  July 20, 2018

    All this “race & IQ” stuff … Elephant in the room question IMHO is: What’s the point of these people harping on about this stuff all the time? What is the point?

    At rock bottom it can surely only be: I don’t want to be governed, taught, informed or related to by people of races other than my own, who have lower IQs simply because of their race?

    Funnily enough, as it happens, me and my race are white and they’re all brown or black.

    Q: How do I achieve this ‘separation’? A: By deriding and denigrating them at every possible juncture, enlisting every possible method, including so-called ‘science’.

    However, when I go to the supermarket, megastore or fast food outlet, and even some government departments, I’m happy to ‘served’ by them …

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 20, 2018

      You blew the end, Parti. If your theory includes, as you state, that they don’t want to relate to people of other races, they wouldn’t even want to be served by them.

      I think there’s a lot of truth in all the rest of what you say, although the Muslims they refer to from the Middle East are often very fair skinned, surprisingly. It’s their religion & cultural demands they rail against.

      Molyneux is the one I think is dodgy, & so far I’ve only heard him pushing the Race IQ crap, not Southern. I don’t buy it. I do think Islam probably knocks back the collective IQ of many Middle Eastern Muslims, but the Iranians are obviously well up with the play in the nuclear sciences so it’s not like none of them can understand the science or that lack technical competence.

      Reply
      • High Flying Duck

         /  July 20, 2018

        Religions in general tend to be anti-knowledge. As such being caught up in religion reduces your knowledge and ability to think cognitively, no matter your native intelligence.
        I remember in a previous lifetime selling encyclopedias door to door.
        More than one household told me the only knowledge they needed came from “the good book”.

        Reply
        • PartisanZ

           /  July 20, 2018

          Yet here we are with a so-called “tolerant”, relatively secular society full of knowledge and riddled with problems …

          What’s wrong with that family’s truth being ‘true’ for them?

          Reply
          • High Flying Duck

             /  July 20, 2018

            I have no issue with people living as they wish, as long as they accept the consequences of their choices & don’t bang on about inequality and rich people from their self chosen status.

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  July 20, 2018

            It’s not really that great having too many in a population believing a lot of stuff thats simply not true, and self-evidently so. But if they want to do that, as long as its harmless, there’s probably nothing wrong with it as long as they can handle being told it’s not true if it’s ever necessary to tell them that. E.g when they won’t let their child receive urgently needed life-saving medical treatment because the Bible says gathering together and praying for the child to be healed in Jesus’ name will cure them.

            Reply
        • Blazer

           /  July 20, 2018

          oh gawd!..the man from P.F Colliers…thought you were too young for that…car salesman now I presume.Bol.

          Reply
          • High Flying Duck

             /  July 20, 2018

            Wasn’t Colliers.

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  July 20, 2018

              Britannica then.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  July 20, 2018

              Nope.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  July 20, 2018

              I can’t actually remember what it was, but it was not a great one and believe they ended up on Fair Go for their tactics. I didn’t do it for long, but had fun.

            • Blazer

               /  July 20, 2018

              that type of vocation is a wonderful learning experience for someone young.
              It lays the foundation and instills cynicism for the average hamster as they enter the…wheel of life.

      • PartisanZ

         /  July 20, 2018

        Assuming “technical competence”, nuclear sciences and all the rest, e.g. the Western paradigm, is the only measure of individual, collective or ‘racial’ IQ …

        If you’re raised Muslim, or Black or Maori or Aboriginal or other-than-Western, and you’re whole Being and World-View are other than Western, the Western measure of IQ simply may not apply?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  July 20, 2018

          Yes. That is true, & acknowledged by reputable researchers in the sociological / psychologcal fields. How IQ is measured has changed & is still evolving, as they say.

          Technical competence in fields involving science or other complex fields are, however, important to tne development of modern infrastructure & systems to support urban development & economies. So if you don’t develop them yourselves among your own populations you have to import them from other populations, or you may have continue to live rural village lifestyles, unless you have resources that make you a mint.

          There was a very interedting item on 1ewes the other night. Somewhere in the central NI geothermal area a compsny has partnered with a local iwi & created a world first plant that is extracting saleable silicon, in crystal & liquid forms, as a by-product from a nearby thermal spring fed lake that is high in it. It’s an environmentally friendly operation & a female representative of the iwi was on briefly saying they’d invested in it for the job opportunities it was providing for their tamariki.

          Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  July 20, 2018

        Gezza, I’d say the modern-day concept of ‘service’ does not include human interaction … there is no ‘relationship’ …

        Reply
  15. Alan Wilkinson

     /  July 20, 2018

    Any defence that the speakers have other alternative venues available will fail on the basis that the Council is not empowered to direct their public assets to advance and protect their own political positions.

    Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  July 20, 2018

      That would be the case if that is what they did … only they didn’t …

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  July 20, 2018

        That will be debated. Goff will deny it but I don’t think he will be credible.

        Reply
        • His lawyers will argue for him you mean. Mr Goff himself is well known for being TAPS

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  July 20, 2018

            TAPS?…you got him mixed up..with Fred Astaire.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 20, 2018

              I suspect it’s a rural analogy as to his thickness.

          • Gezza

             /  July 20, 2018

            TAPS The Atlantic Paranormal Society (New Jersey)
            TAPS Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors
            TAPS Trans Alaska Pipeline System
            TAPS Tarapur Atomic Power Station (India)
            TAPS Tazewell Animal Protective Society (Pekin, IL)
            TAPS Totally Automated Personnel System
            TAPS Transactions of the American Philosophical Society (publication)
            TAPS Texoma Area Paratransit System (Texas)
            TAPS Tool for Auto-Registered Phones Support (Cisco tool to manage VoIP phones)
            TAPS Training and Performance Support
            TAPS Turbulence Auto-PIREP System
            TAPS Two-Axis Pointing System
            TAPS Theory and Practice of Software (conference)
            TAPS Trans-Atlantic Paranormal Society (forum)
            TAPS Test Access Paths
            TAPS Technology Area Plans
            TAPS TETRA Advanced Packet Services
            TAPS Tactical Area Positioning System
            TAPS Trajectory Accuracy Prediction System
            TAPS TSPI Accuracy Prediction System
            TAPS Travel Automated Payment System
            TAPS Target Analysis and Planning System
            TAPS Tracking and Presentation System (provides an audit trail of budget adjustments)
            TAPS Towed Acoustic Projector System
            TAPS Terminal Approach Production System
            TAPS Task Force Area Coverage Prediction System
            TAPS Terminal Area Positive Separation
            TAPS Thick As Pig Stuff (polite form)
            TAPS Tactical Assault Planning System
            TAPS Tactical Protective Shelters
            TAPS Technology Assessment and Planning System
            TAPS TERCOM Aircraft Positioning System
            TAPS Tris-Amino-Propanesulfonic Acid
            TAPS Towed-Array Broadband Processing System (British)
            TAPS Terminal Applications Processor System
            TAPS Turbo Alternator Power System
            TAPS Transport, Access, Parking and Servicing (planning scheme; Australia)
            TAPS Technical and Professional Services (Maryland)

            Reply
  16. Gezza

     /  July 20, 2018

    From Open Forum:

    duperez / July 20, 2018
    I read “Immigration NZ has granted visas to controversial Canadian speakers Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux.”

    The noise you hear will be venue managers falling over themselves to hire their premises out to them. The biggest racket will be when someone like Auckland University says they have no available spaces.

    Gezza / July 20, 2018
    Interesting. Where did you read this?

    duperez / July 20, 2018
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/105625016/farright-canadian-speakers-lauren-southern-and-stefan-molyneux-granted-visas

    Gezza / July 20, 2018
    The decision was made by Iain Lees-Galloway. His explanation is that of a clear thinker & a genuine advocate of free speech. Good on him.

    He seems to be one of Labour’s competent Ministers, I’ve noticed before, dupers.

    MORE TO COME it says. It’ll be interesting to see what happens next.

    Reply
  17. wooden goat

     /  July 20, 2018

    George Orwell said “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

    This very website had an article here –
    https://yournz.org/2016/11/22/awful-from-nz-muslim-leader/

    – Quote – “A shocking video has surfaced containing excerpts of a number of Auckland sermons and lectures given by Shaykh Dr Mohammad Anwar Sahib between April 2014 and November 2016 in which he repeatedly uses appalling anti-Semitic slanders and libels and denigrates women. In one sermon, he calmly calls Jews “the enemy of Muslims”

    Further down the page, we see the response from the Islamic Women’s Council of New Zealand –
    Quote – “The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had good relationships with his Jewish neighbours & encouraged Muslims to do the same.”

    Really?

    Let’s see what the Islamic texts say.

    “O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.”
    – Quran 5:51

    “Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.”
    – Sahih Muslim 26:5389

    “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men. As they were being taken in small groups to the Prophet, they said to one another, ‘What do you think will be done to us?’ Someone said, ‘Do you not understand. On each occasion do you not see that the summoner never stops? He does not discharge anyone. And that those who are taken away do not come back. By God, it is death!’ The affair continued until the Messenger of Allah had finished with them all.”
    – Al-Tabari, Vol. 8, p. 35

    Muhammad’s dying words included a curse on Jews for building their place of worship at their prophets’ graves –

    “Narrated ‘Aisha and ‘Abdullah bin ‘Abbas:
    When the last moment of the life of Allah’s Apostle came he started putting his ‘Khamisa’ on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, “May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” The Prophet was warning (Muslims) of what those had done.”
    – Sahih Bukhari 1:8:427

    So…. I leave people to judge for themselves whether the Islamic Women’s Council of New Zealand were telling the truth.

    In fact, as nasty as Dr Sahib’s words were, he was merely repeating the stuff that the Islamic texts say.
    By his words and actions, *he* was showing us the truth about *Islam*.

    Southern and Molyneux would tell the truth about Islam too (almost certainly in a fact-filled and non-hateful way), but so many people don’t want to hear it.

    “In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
    – Unknown

    When will we ever learn?
    – w.g.

    Reply
  18. PartisanZ

     /  July 20, 2018

    11.28 and 70+ comments already …

    Clearly this is what we really want to talk about … White folks want to assert their threatened superiority …

    “It is not just that the idea of the native is rejected, but the feeling that is generated by them is also rejected. So a psychological defense must be made against the idea and the affect returning.

    This explains why the question of indigeneity or the racial basis of colonisation is not simply a matter for logical discussion about rights.

    The actual well-being or relative socio-economic or legal status of oppressed peoples has no real bearing on the psychoanalytic functioning of the person that has been raised in racial dominance and expects dominance.” – Danny Butt

    http://dannybutt.net/the-opposite-of-whiteness/

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  July 20, 2018

      No, white folks want to reassert their threatened equality and don’t want to be overwhelmed by destructive tribalism as Africa has been.

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  July 20, 2018

        Yeah … Right … White folks believe their dominance and privilege is “equality” …

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  July 20, 2018

          Yes. That’s why they often inter-marry.

          Reply
          • PartisanZ

             /  July 20, 2018

            The imperative urge to mate and reproduce, or have companionship, both pervades and overrides everything Alan …

            Inter-marriage is irrelevant to the topic.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 20, 2018

              No, it isn’t irrelevant. White folks see their partners as equals whatever their colour.

            • Gezza

               /  July 20, 2018

              What colour do you think these white folks partners are?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 20, 2018

              Mostly dead. Are you pretending they represent mainstream attitudes in this country today?

            • Gezza

               /  July 20, 2018

              They were never mainstream back then either. I could have selected any of several up to date pics of American southern KKK hooded racists but that one was the easiest to show a procession of them & find with an actually postable .jpg address from my FiP.

              Are you pretending ALL “white foks” today happily intermarry with partners of different colours & see them as equal?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 20, 2018

              Are you pretending most white folks today in NZ see inter-racial couples as unequal?

            • Gezza

               /  July 20, 2018

              No. And as you have just tried to shift the goal posts to pretend you were saying something different from the bald all-encompassing statement you actually made I am happy to announce I am retiring from this match with yet another win.

              Splutter on punching at shadows if you wish. I’m off elsewhere to celebrate.

  19. FarmerPete

     /  July 20, 2018

    Best opinion piece on these two appeared online in Stuff today. As for Rosemary MacLoud, why would you read any further than the first couple of paragraphs. We need to be protected from tossers who want to protect us from hearing things they don’t agree with!

    Reply
  1. Free Speech – are we for or against it? — Your NZ – NZ Conservative Coalition

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