Nonsense on ‘multiculturalism’ and ‘free speech’

I’ve resisted doing much on Southern and Molynuex, but some of their claims while in New Zealand are ridiculous.

From NZH: Andrew Little happy ‘insidious’ alt-right pair leaving the country as bomb threat claim emerges

Southern then said it was because people wanted to be involved in “their own civil rights movement” because “they have been told it is the greatest good to be involved in these civil rights movements”.

“And because there isn’t one in this day and age, there’s no real oppression other than … the only laws I can think of that are biased against a certain race in the Western world are ones that are anti-hiring men and white people because of affirmative action … these battles have already won. So they do have to create these villains.

What a load of barely coherent nonsense. Trying to claim they are victims of something or other.

The problem in New Zealand is not laws, it’s how laws are unevenly policed and applied that’s still a major concern. And why such a high proportion of those prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned are Maori. It’s a complex issue, but the application of laws rather than the laws themselves that are contentious.

She said protesters had not heard the pair speak and were “only repeating what the media have told them and the media are not a particularly clever lot, are they?”

More unsubstantiated bollocks.

It’s not the media who have been driving opposition to and criticism of Southern. They have actually had a go at giving her and Molyneux a say while in New Zealand, which is a good thi9ng, because it has enabled me to see how crazy they can come across.

Molyneux said the difficulty the pair had finding a venue was linked to multiculturalism and its impact on Western values such as free speech.

I don’t see that it had anything to do with ‘multiculturalism’, which has become a meaningless term a bit like ‘neoliberalism’.  Both are now used as labels of something thagt’s supposed to be terrible, but most of those who think they are virtual swear words seem to have little if an y idea what they actually meant, or might mean.

“We had free speech, now we have multiculturalism and free speech is under significant attack and it is crumbling, in particular, in places like New Zealand.”

When did we have ‘free speech’? And what of that has suddenly disappeared because he came to New Zealand?

I’m hearing him speak (via media reports and interviews), and he seems quite free to spout his nonsense.

There are threats to free speech in New Zealand, as there is elsewhere in the world, but it’s a potential threat only. It hasn’t suddenly changed since Molyneux arrived here on Thursday. What happens here is not all about him, it’s not all because of him.

Free speech is not ‘crumbling’ here, that’s a pathetic claim.

Southern added: “If we are to have multiple cultures involved in every facet of our lives does that mean we now need to have witch doctors at our medical conferences or in our hospitals because we can’t make Western medicine the supreme leading medicine in our society.”

Inanity overload there.

I doubt that Southern was forced to wear a grass skirt or kilt, eat fish and chips, fried rice  and mutton roast and sing our awful national anthem while she was here. I don’t think everyone is forced to consume maple syrup and eat seals when they go to Canada.

If Molyneux and Southern dare so averse to cultures mixing why did they come here? We might get tainted!

To me multiculturalism means allowing varied cultures to coexist, overlap, integrate and be enjoyed by anyone who wants to experience them.

That’s how New Zealand has been for two hundred years.

There will be few places in the world that can experience a monoculture frozen in some time warp (which would have to mean no contact with the rest of the world).

I’m glad that Southern and Molyneux had the freedom to be interviewed and to be reported on while in New Zealand. It has shown me how ridiculous some of their ideas are.

But they are likely to be forgotten fairly quickly by nearly all of New Zealand – back to their anonymity up until about a month ago. They won’t be missed.


Multiculturalism, the view that cultures, races, and ethnicities, particularly those of minority groups, deserve special acknowledgement of their differences within a dominant political culture. …

Most modern democracies comprise members with diverse cultural viewpoints, practices, and contributions. Many minority cultural groups have experienced exclusion or the denigration of their contributions and identities in the past. Multiculturalism seeks the inclusion of the views and contributions of diverse members of society while maintaining respect for their differences and withholding the demand for their assimilation into the dominant culture.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/multiculturalism

That’s a bit different to what I thought.It doesn’t mean that Italian immigrants will insist on crucifixion (except pretend once a year).

It still sounds like nothing to be worried about. That’s still how things have in Aotearoa for yonks.

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93 Comments

  1. Gezza

     /  August 4, 2018

    This might be a good place for me to re-post something I just posted in Open Forum.

    I’ve spent a lot of time doing late night listening to Molyneux’s videos. Enuf for me to pick up that he’s dodgy. That he distorts things & basically lies a lot. That his audience for his phone-ins are mostly pretty dumb lost white young men & women in the US. The more I saw of his horribly long YouTube videos & listened to him & checked out things that sounded unlikely or suspicious & turned out to be false the creepier he became.

    I’ve been assuming the people objecting to him haven’t been listening to him, because some of what he says is right, or it SOUNDS right, or it might seem like it’s right, because Jordan Peterson, or some discredited scientific racist in past, said it too (but on checking, often Peterson doesn’t – or not with the thinly-veiled racist construction Molyneux puts on it).
    … … … ….
    sorethumb / August 4, 2018
    Define racist

    0 0 Rate This

    Gezza / August 4, 2018
    Define racist
    Stefan Molyneux

    Although it’s most likely his current self-marketing strategy. He now has a long history. I just stumbled across this, & the very comprehensive website linked below. A lot of links inside other articles on that site seem worth a read too.

    “What are the criticisms of Stefan Molyneux?

    There is just so much to tell that I don’t really know where to start. The very worst of it is that he has always encouraged people — especially young people — to abandon their families of origin if said family was “abusive”. Sounds good until you realize that Stefan defines abuse as not agreeing with every single point Stefan makes.

    Unlike most other cults, Stefan doesn’t the provide a physical home and community for the people he’s brainwashed. Instead, he has people cut ties to families who could offer financial and physical help and support.

    That’s probably the worst of it. Other than that, he is the kind of guy who clearly will say anything for donations. He has shifted from anarcho-libertarianism / anarcho-capitalism to far right / alt-right stuff. He used to rail against the evils of the state. Now he rails against the evil of the non-white races, immigrants, feminists, etc.

    He made this jump from libertarian apologist to Trump-supporting race realist without batting an eye. He has gone from anarchist to fascist authoritarian all the while claiming that he is morally consistent and ALWAYS RIGHT about everything.

    Despite his claims about being a philosopher, he is in the end an textbook narcissist and failed actor who has managed to use YouTube to get an audience. Initially he used the fringe anarchist movement to entertain and from which to get donations. His natural inclinations and realization that anarchists don’t have as much money as Republicans has led him to swap out anarchists for Trump supporters.

    But don’t take my word for it. Watch some of his earlier stuff. Watch him now. Read about the way he’s lied about his childhood, about the real nature of his IT “career”, about deFOOing, about his wife’s career and reprimand. You’ll see that he really is little more than an opportunistic actor.”
    More:
    http://www.fdrliberated.com/

    Reply
    • lurcher1948

       /  August 4, 2018

      WHAT WHAT Gezza are you saying NAZIs/alt rightwingers lie what would Corky say….I’m shocked just saying

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  August 4, 2018

        No. That’s not what I said Lurch. I’m talking about Stefan Molyneux. I don’t think he’s a Nazi. He might be an arsehole – and the more I delve into him the bigger a fundamental orifice I think he is – but not all arseholes are Nazis. Although an arsehole like this would certainly appeal to some neo-Nazis & mysogynists & incels and suchlike.

        Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  August 4, 2018

      That website you posted is just a silly hatchet job. it is as credible as the Standard.
      You are defining racist based on his views (or views of those he interviews). Rightly or wrongly studies of IQ show average differences between races (geographically isolated populations). You can’t handle that so you throw a wobbly.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  August 4, 2018

        Did you check out all the available links in that (I haven’t checked them all yet) – and some of his early videos, for example. They’re quite hard to find.

        Re the racism thing I’ve already explained to you twice that I think you’re a racist, (and now it’s blindingly obvious that so is he) & so I won’t be discussing these continual race-based IQ rants of yours with you. I’ve also explained exactly why. I know you’ve read my reasons & if you don’t like them, tuff titty.

        So throw all the “wobblies” you want at me – that’s all there is and there ain’t no mo, bro.

        Reply
  2. Gezza

     /  August 4, 2018

    Most modern democracies comprise members with diverse cultural viewpoints, practices, and contributions. Many minority cultural groups have experienced exclusion or the denigration of their contributions and identities in the past. Multiculturalism seeks the inclusion of the views and contributions of diverse members of society while maintaining respect for their differences and withholding the demand for their assimilation into the dominant culture.

    It still sounds like nothing to be worried about. That’s still how things have been in Aotearoa for yonks.

    …………..
    That’s not really true from my perspective. Apart from the initial flood of predominantly British settlers who overwhelmed Maori with numbers & firepower & both exploited some Maori, & allowed or encouraged other Maori initially to exploit or battle each other, because it wasn’t all harmony & song before they got here – the prevailing culture for over a hundred years has been a Western European English-speaking society.

    Subsequent immigrants from other cultures have simply mostly assimilated into it either immediately or within a generation. It’s what most immigrants have done here & elsewhere. They have in some cases brought restaurants or a little ethnic flavour to festivals etc. But they’ve fitted in.

    In the process they’ve sometimes subtly changed the prevailing culture but, not much.

    Where this is still happening in NZ (I see it in Porirua) immigrants from other ethnic groups are still largely assimilating in this way & I see the communities as more multi-ethnic than multi-cultural.

    However it may be changing as the multi-cultural dogma seems to encourage people to preserve & bring with them customs & lifestyles (like, say, large families among Pasifika that are harder to support in NZ & require more government resources) than are the norm for the resident European population, & more situations where Kiwis used to hearing everyone speak English don’t understand things being said by immigrants around them – who know they don’t understand.

    It leads to enclaves & that can lead to strife for anyone not welcome or not comfortable in them.

    For me the jury’s out on whether multiculturalism is what we have & whether we should. I favour expecting assimilation into a bicultural Pakeha/Maori society as the norm. Or I expect there to be trouble down the track. But that’s just me, & my own opinion, & it’s just based on being an amateur historian who has read a lot about how nation states developed.

    Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  August 4, 2018

      All the evidence is that increased diversity erodes social capital, however if we want to know if that is happening someone has to fund the research. Who would do that? Someone like “cohesion expert Paul Spoonley who worked for the UN and gets to go to conferences overseas and tell people how NZ is accepting of difference (Fox minds Chickens). The Labour Government started multiculturalism (against the wishes of New Zealanders) and National is heavily into the property sector.

      Reply
    • Trevors_elbow

       /  August 5, 2018

      I think you’re correct Gezza and this is why importing hard line Muslims is not healthy for NZ… assimilation is not on their agenda. You see their agenda in the UK and I can tell you it ain’t pretty. And the local populace is getting increasingly restive about it

      If we look at an example of multi-culturalism in Singapore, then that isn’t very pretty either. Very strict laws in place to limit inter-religion and culturally conflicts (Malay Muslims, Indian Hindus, Chinese following Daoist/Confucian mores plus Christian’s of various flavours) e.g. limits on where festival parades can be held and how often. Basically the culturals coexist ok because a strong central authority exists to ensure they play nicely together and rules with a very heavy hand when required

      Basically assimilation is what works – pepper potting cultural almost always leads to conflicts UNLESS an authoritarian, mainly agnostic goverment keeps a lid on. Look at what happened in Lebanon when the Palestinians arrived.. a balanced society was shattered very quickly… look at Yugoslavia when authoritarian control was lifted when Tito popped his clogs….

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  August 5, 2018

        Yep … Assuredly … That’s what we need … Strong, authoritarian control …

        We need a REAL leader … like Marshal Tito

        Excellent unintended Rightie comedy on a Sunday morning!

        Reply
  3. admiralvonspee

     /  August 4, 2018

    The funniest part…Molyneux’s IQ views on ethnicity have been largely formed by…NZ research.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  August 4, 2018

      One NZer’s research, I think. Molyneux’s views on race seem actually to be designed to just cause friction & in so doing raise his profile. And they are not the same as that chap’s at all. (Is it James Flynn? I forget for the moment. Might check later.)

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  August 4, 2018

        Molyneux’s views on IQ & race or ethnicity – he has a history of swapping those two around to suit his audience) I meant to say.

        Reply
        • I really was surprised by what a bore Molyneux was. He was also very rude (and I am not remotely a fan of Patrick Gower; anything but) and his ideas were badly expressed and full of strawman arguments….the thought of an entire evening with him does not appeal at all. I cannot see how this unpleasant person attracts fans.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  August 4, 2018

            Mostly thickos or bigots.

            Reply
            • I really expected him to be a more riveting & convincing speaker, regardless of his views. But this was just an unoriginal, instantly forgettable monologue. Yawn, yawn.

            • Gezza

               /  August 4, 2018

              Yes, I plan to watch them on tv one’s Sunday programme, although I expect it will be a once over lightly & we’ll hear more about the reporter or presenter ssys than what they actually said.

              Molyneux was very typical of the criticisms I’ve made of him & that I see are expanded on in that link above. He presented himself as an authority on our Treaty & history & made basic mistakes. But his overseas audience of bigots & thickos will lap it up because they’ll have no idea he just made stuff up, as usual.

            • duperez

               /  August 4, 2018

              I admit I was looking to seeing/hearing Mike Hosking’s views on the big evening with the two.

            • Gezza

               /  August 4, 2018

              I’ve got really interested in Molyneux now, dupers.

              I’ve been following up on the links in that site I posted in my first comment. This guy is just total bad news.

              I was cutting Southern some slack but guilt by association is my predominant impression now. Either she’s too dumb to know who this guy is & what he’s been up to all these years – or she does, but she’s happy to ignore it, or to capitalise off it.

              Rationalwiki at one point describes Molyneux as a proponent of PIDOOMA (pulled it directly out of my arse) & Yep, that fits.

      • admiralvonspee

         /  August 4, 2018

        Yes, world-reknowned Professor James Flynn. He posits that if you take 1 of 2 positions on IQ differences—you’ll be criticised.

        1. If its genetic—racist!
        2. If its environmental—blaming the victim!

        Flynn argues that culture/environment is the strongest predictor of IQ. Molyneux’s view is that mixing low-IQ + high-IQ cultures is problematic at the edges, e.g. appeasement to sharia law.

        You could argue Molyneux has an agenda to drive but Flynn has not discredited his statements as far as I have seen/read/heard across numerous interviews and/or studies.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  August 4, 2018

          so how is I.Q measured and by who’s decree?

          Reply
        • Gezza

           /  August 4, 2018

          Flynn probably knows nothing of Molyneux’s history or what claims he uses it to support. I’ve been surprised to find out long Mo,yneux’s been active although I certainly picked up from his videos what a shit he is.

          Reply
          • admiralvonspee

             /  August 4, 2018

            Flynn probably knows nothing of Molyneux’s history or what claims he uses it to support

            I don’t know about that. They spoke for 1 hour and 15 min on the very topic at hand. A recommended listen regardless of one’s leaning on the subject.

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  August 4, 2018

            I think I might have seen this. If so it bored the hell out of me – he’s not a riveting speaker. I’ll check later though.

            Reply
          • sorethumb

             /  August 4, 2018

            Most of what Molyneaux does is interview. You don’t have to watch him but you are not qualified to stop other people.

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  August 4, 2018

            Most of what Molyneaux does is interview.
            In that video (I have seen it before)? Yes. But then he misuses that sort of interview to mislead the gullible, & con & win over the bigots in other his other interminably long misleading video presentations, because he has a sly racist schtick as well as his other often highly questionable schticks.

            Of course I’m not trying to stop other people watching his stuff. I’m recommending people watch as many of his videos as they can. But if they’ve not got a really strong racist or misogynist or libertarian or authoritarian bent, most people won’t bother – they’re too feckin long & he’s incredibly irritating in his soliloquies because he behaves quite weirdly in those. That in itself ought to warn normal, sensible people off, imo.

            Reply
        • sorethumb

           /  August 5, 2018

          Gezza says people who think race and average IQ are connected are Racist.
          Flynn thinks race and IQ are linked
          Therefore Flynn is Racist.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  August 5, 2018

            No I don’t say that.

            Reply
            • sorethumb

               /  August 5, 2018

              Identify statements by me you find racist?

            • sorethumb

               /  August 5, 2018

              Re the racism thing I’ve already explained to you twice that I think you’re a racist, (and now it’s blindingly obvious that so is he) & so I won’t be discussing these continual race-based IQ rants of yours with you. I’ve also explained exactly why. I know you’ve read my reasons & if you don’t like them, tuff titty.

              Specific examples would be useful?

            • PartisanZ

               /  August 5, 2018

              One might say … In the same way that there is everyday racism and subconscious racism (or subconscious racial bias) then everything you say that relates directly, pertains or alludes to favoring White Superiority is ‘racist’ …

              I’m convinced that the maintenance of White Superiority with all its colonially appropriated advantages and privileges is the real agenda of these people and of the “assimilation” movement …

              Assimilation is the modern-day equivalent of the ‘White Australia’ policy … and much closer to Apartheid than any so-called Maori race-based privilege can ever be …

            • Gezza

               /  August 5, 2018

              Well, tbh Parti, I’ve come to the conclusion you’re an anti-Western White European racist too, so that’s the problem with discussion with discussions on race & culture, isn’t it? People adopt fixed positions based on their prejudices, & then we get nowhere because we’re echo chamber territory.

              My issues with Molyneux are that the more I look into him, the more I find & the guy’s a pathological liar, conman, & all douchebag – so I’ve gone right off him.

            • sorethumb

               /  August 5, 2018

              PartisanZ
              everything you say that relates directly, pertains or alludes to favoring White Superiority is ‘racist’ …
              ……..
              EG?

            • sorethumb

               /  August 5, 2018

              Gezza your reaction is exactly like my friends. My friend did a psychology degree 30 years ago where he learned race and IQ weren’t connected. He now attacks the messengers: their character; their motives; their expertise rather than looking at the evidence.

            • Gezza

               /  August 5, 2018

              I’m not attacking Flynn. He hasn’t been exposed multiple times as a pathological liar, manipulator & con artist. Molyneux has. Molyneux has a racist angle to his rants. Flynn hasn’t. But I’m just not interested in your fixation on this matter.

  4. Alan Wilkinson

     /  August 4, 2018

    My understanding was that Maori also oppose multiculturalism?

    Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  August 4, 2018

        Some are government sock puppets.

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  August 5, 2018

          Evidence, please.

          Reply
          • sorethumb

             /  August 5, 2018

            Biculturalism institutionalises Maori culture with a Maori Bureaucracy. They join in the “we are so happy we are multicultural” chorus. “Institutionalisation of public discourse”. Ella Henry etc.

            Reply
    • admiralvonspee

       /  August 5, 2018

      I’m waiting for the backlash when it’s suggested that the All Blacks perform a haka/dragon dance remix before each match, to accurately represent a diverse and inclusive society.

      Reply
  5. “I’m glad that Southern and Molyneux had the freedom to be interviewed and to be reported on while in New Zealand. It has shown me how ridiculous some of their ideas are.”

    Not a bad argument for absolute Free Speech, I’d say.

    “To me multiculturalism means allowing varied cultures to coexist, overlap, integrate and be enjoyed by anyone who wants to experience them.”

    Couldn’t agree more. I grew up in a big, cosmopolitan seaport in England, and the experience was very rewarding and beneficial. The problem currently faced by
    Western Civilisation, however, is not multiculturalism – which most people in my experience rub along with quite happily – it is the increasingly enforced violent, backward and savage monoculture of Islam.

    Islam’s sole reason for existence, and the reason it sends its programmed Muslims into Western societies, is to destroy their cultures and replace them with its ruthlessly monocultural self. There is no coexistence, no overlap, no integration, and certainly no joy. Islam has never brought anything with it but hatred and violence of a depth, intensity and depravity that ordinary Westerners simply cannot fathom.

    If this nettle is not grasped by Western cultures, then very soon there will be no Western cultures. Or Eastern or Northern or Southern cultures. There will be only Islam; and the desolation that always accompanies it. If you don’t believe me, research it; but widely: Islam’s tentacles already reach into a lot of Western places. In Britain today you can be arrested simply for clicking a link pointing to criticism of it. It is called a ‘hate crime’. I defy anyone to claim that that is for the good of mankind.

    Reply
    • phantom snowflake

       /  August 4, 2018

      …violent, backward and savage…destroy their cultures…ruthlessly monocultural self…hatred and violence of a depth, intensity and depravity…
      Jesus H. Christ! If the term ‘Islamophobia’ had never been coined it would definitely be needed now purely to describe your rant! My suggestion is that you try talking to some actual, real world Muslims rather than the cartoon characters in your head.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  August 4, 2018

        Where? ? Riyadh? Jakarta? Tehran? Islamabad?

        Reply
        • phantom snowflake

           /  August 4, 2018

          ‘thesailor’ was referring to Muslims in The West; so I’ll go with Henderson…

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  August 4, 2018

            Do you think the Bible & the Quran are true?

            Reply
            • phantom snowflake

               /  August 4, 2018

              I was born into religious fundamentalism, so any answer I would give is certain to be biased. That is all.

            • Gezza

               /  August 4, 2018

              No worries. I was born into a Catholic family & went right thru the Catholic education system. I served as an altar boy at mass regularly & got the religion prize in both standards 3 & 4.

              So any answer I’d give would be honest. That’s all I’m asking of you. You’re not giving an honest answer to a simple question.

            • phantom snowflake

               /  August 4, 2018

              You’re right, that wasn’t honest. My extremist upbringing has left me with zero appetite for religious debates; that’s what I’m wanting to avoid. I haven’t read any of the Quran but excelled at memorizing Bible verses at Sunday School. I consider the Bible to contain much truth but even more BS. I’m happy to take the bits I like and dump the rest; an attitude that puts me at odds with those in my family who insist it’s “All or Nothing.”

            • Gezza

               /  August 4, 2018

              My extremist upbringing has left me with zero appetite for religious debates; that’s what I’m wanting to avoid.

              That’s what they’re all wanting to avoid. And that’s how you get blackmailed into not having them. And yet we must – because their holy books books teach lies & bad stuff. And the good stuff doesn’t need to be in their holy books.

              We’ve taken it out – most of it is empathically based anyway – & that stuff is not confined to Abrahamic mythical religions. You don’t have to be an atheist, but all the bullshit & conflicting stuff should be talked about. Widely. The unjustiable fear of eternal torture to enforce compliance is obnoxious to reason & humanity.

            • Gezza

               /  August 4, 2018

              *unjustifiable

            • phantom snowflake

               /  August 4, 2018

              I may have been unclear. (again) I’m all in favour of religions being debated; it’s just not for me, I have religion overload. “The unjustiable fear of eternal torture to enforce compliance is obnoxious to reason & humanity.” Amen to that, brother! What traumatised me most in Sunday School was the thought that when I died I would be singing hymns with the angels forever and ever and ever… Cruel!

            • Gezza

               /  August 4, 2018

              Yes it’s the carrot and stick approach. Do what the bits of this silly book we like says and you will see your loved ones again in this beautiful paradise where all you will all want to do is praise this powerful narcissistic fairy king with major low-self-esteem issues. Don’t and it’s eternal torture – or nothingness, so you’ll miss out on the good bits.

              It’s not true, there’s no reason to think that it is – & I could never say that to my mum because she wants to see dad & her dead family again & after a lifetime of believing it she couldn’t emotionally handle the idea it’s not true. And she was my mum. So I couldn’t hurt her.

      • sorethumb

         /  August 5, 2018

        My suggestion is that you try talking to some actual, real world Muslims rather than the cartoon characters in your head.

        Reply
    • I am dubious of the link-clicking leading to arrest, as this would be impossible to police (or all but) How would anyone know ?

      The other ideas are simply scaremongering.

      Reply
      • Try NZ., there are plenty of them here.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  August 4, 2018

          No there’s not. It’s quite a small community. Their Islamic Federation here thinks criticism is blaphemy & that shouldn’t be allowed. They can get stuffed on that one. That’s the sort of thing people like Molyneux & Southern can point to to bolster their claims that Islam tries to dominate Western secular culture when they get well established in Western countries.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  August 5, 2018

            43,000 or something like that, and I see no signs of them trying to dominate. The Muslim girls don’t try to change the uniform of their school; they just adapt it (longer skirts, scarf in school colours) as do those who work in supermarkets.

            I couldn’t find anything online about simple criticism being blasphemy, and it is unlikely to be, I suspect that that was put about by people like Corky.

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  August 5, 2018

            Well no, I mean a simple criticism of mine is that Allah doesn’t exist & that if he did in any case he would be a narcissistic, homophobic, misogynistic, sadistic, lying arsehole who lied about all sorts of things & whose supposed communication strategy with an illiterate arab warlord via a mythical angel Gabriel was so pathetically bad, contradictory & generally confused that Muslims still can’t agree on exactly what it meant.

            And that Muhummad is a terrible example of the supposed perfect man except for maybe worse Arabs than him at the time he lived & that his claimed unwitnessed divine communications with Jaweh now Allah obviously never really happened.

            Pretty sure this to Muslims is blasphemy, but to anybody rational who has read the Bible & the Quran & just applies the most basic form logic & rational analysis – it’s true.

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  August 5, 2018

            AND, Kitty, if you go back & read the content of the letter from the NZ Islamic Federation (or whatever its exact title is) to the MoI requesting that these two not be allowed to enter NZ it specifically mentions among its reasons that they blaspheme. I’m not sure if Molyneux has – he’s got 10 years of saying all sorts of shit about all sorts of things, but Southern went around saying Allah is Gay.

            Obviously if you read the crap in the Quran his character is the opposite – or Muhummad’s certainly is.

            But who cares? She bullshits about that & Muhummad bullshits about other stuff. Anybody can bullshit in our society. And they can get called out for it. And that’s how it should be. One group of people who believe & promote bullshit can’t demand that another person can’t bullshit.

            Reply
        • sorethumb

           /  August 4, 2018

          Israel should send boats to the Mediterranean – Oh I know “God gave Israel to the Jews”.

          Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  August 4, 2018

      “To me multiculturalism means allowing varied cultures to coexist, overlap, integrate and be enjoyed by anyone who wants to experience them.”
      ………..
      to me it involves territorial rights. I don’t see why we as a small land based economy should be flooded by people from places that are not equal and accessible to us. There is a study which states that 80% say they think a society should be made up of different cultures. That is a trick question as it doesn’t address proportions.

      The managerial state wishes to weaken, if not cripple altogether, any social group not under its control. The favored minorities who benefit from multiculturalism depend entirely on the state for their enhanced position: strengthening them weakens those who might prove recalcitrant to the state’s domination. A majority culture not created by the state is in a position effectively to resist its absolute mastery; hence the state claims that the historically dominant culture is but one of many competing groups, enjoying no privileged status. As a result, civil society loses its independent status and becomes totally subject to the state’s power.

      https://mises.org/library/multiculturalism-and-politics-guilt-toward-secular-theocracy-paul-edward-gottfried

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  August 5, 2018

        Oh God … I debunked Gottfried a couple of days ago on here?

        There’s a relatively simple solution … Make it desirable for people to stay in their countries of origin … and, where appropriate, give them territorial status … Why not?

        If Tuhoe own most of Tuhoe land – and can buy back the rest – and want to do so, why shouldn’t they have a Tuhoe Nation?

        The Corporate-Capitalist-Military-Political West could stop exploiting ‘Emerging’* and ‘Third World’ people – along with their own underclasses – and their resources, to a considerable degree, and close the wealth and income inequality gaps …

        You’ll think these ideas extreme and ludicrous, of course … Just as I do the ravings of Von Mises, Rothbard and the other defenders of slavery …

        “Slave owners took all the risk” …. don’t you know?

        *Notice how people become ’emerging’ when they emerge economically into corporate-capitalism?

        Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  August 5, 2018

        The same thing is presented here (multiculturalism requires the majority to be demoted). While the managerial state divides and rules.

        This work thus suggests that for multiculturalism to succeed identities need to be transformed. And, importantly, as Kymlicka suggests, this transformation applies not only to the minority but also to the majority. Indeed, perhaps the major identity transformation is required from members of the majority as their attributes are, as a rule, the same as the ones that define the national identity. Minorities need to be written into the self-definition of the national identity such as to imbue them with existential legitimacy as citizens in parity with the majority

        Such civic definitions serve to place the majority group as a sub-group within the system of intergroup relations,which allows for a new identity to emerge. Legitimacy and status as members of the new community are then less likely to be defined by ethnicity. Such civic based definitions also shape sub-group relations such that ethnically-defined difference becomes less relevant to the community as a whole.

        In a multiethnic/multicultural society, the shift from an exclusive to an inclusive definition of the national prototype requires the emergence of new and consistent discourses about who ‘we’ are (see Kymlicka, 1995). Discourses that do not appeal to ethnic heritage and traditions but to civic values. It is in this context that the role of political leadership comes into place in changing the discourse and creating a consensual view of the national prototype such that it becomes shared by the members of a polity (see Uberoi & Modood, 2013). Moreover, there needs to be an institutionalisation of the public discourse as in line with terms outlined by Parekh (2006).

        Reply
        • PartisanZ

           /  August 5, 2018

          Identities, and indeed National Identity, needed to be transformed in order for Rogerednomics to work … Did you complain then?

          The advertising industry played a big part then, as it does now. Notice the steadily increasing number of Maori, Pacific Island, Asian and Indian faces appearing in advertising over the years … presumably as these ‘ethnicities’ reach an economic status worth advertising to?

          The ‘majority group’ is and always has been a sub-group, it being a group within or ‘under’ the total group … which the majority never was …

          There was a time, ie 6 Feb 1840, when Maori were the majority group …

          When has the ‘National Identity’ been fixed in concrete? Just because it seemed to you as a child that Colin Meads or Fred Dagg was the National Identity doesn’t mean they actually were … National Identities are fluid and, indeed, multifarious … White & Black South Africa for instance … Maori and Pakeha ‘New Zealander’ … Chinese New Zealander …

          Minority citizens ARE citizens in parity with majority citizens … leastwise in Law … or would you have it otherwise?

          Please tell me when, exactly, there was a “consensual view of the national prototype” and when the “public discourse” WAS NOT institutionalized?

          This tract you’ve cited, like the Mises Institute *CRAP*, is largely intellectual word-play.

          Reply
    • Blazer

       /  August 5, 2018

      Reply
  6. Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  August 4, 2018

      Banal. Quite a few in NZ are opposed to free speech. A few no doubt support Southern or Molyneux or both. Probably quite a few support some of their views but not all.

      That sort of nonsense is so pathetic it inclines me to the view that female emancipation may have been a mistake.

      Reply
      • lurcher1948

         /  August 4, 2018

        Alan have you consulted with Kitty with your stupid wacky views

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  August 4, 2018

          Cheer up, Lurch. Left to women, the US would have elected Hillary.

          Reply
      • Blazer

         /  August 4, 2018

        yes id they ever give women the vote.

        Al you will get over your ex before you die..I hope.

        Reply
  7. Tipene

     /  August 4, 2018

    So there was a bomb threat -told ya.

    Reply
  8. Tipene

     /  August 4, 2018

    From a Kiwiblog poster:

    “The bomb threat to the Powerstation was made, by his own admission, by an anarchist by the name of Liam Walsh. A social media post from Walsh which begins “I called in a bomb threat to the Powerstation to troll Southern and her girlfriend…” is doing the rounds.

    It would appear to be the same Liam Walsh who recently stood in the Northcote by-election under the NAP (Not A Party) banner. He was described in a newspaper story about the by-election as an anarchist. Frighteningly, he got a full FIVE votes, so there are four other people in the Northcote electorate who are similarly inclined.

    I trust he will get a knock on the door very soon from the good officers of the New Zealand Police. Threats of terrorism, even if it is just a boast, are serious stuff”

    Reply
    • phantom snowflake

       /  August 4, 2018

      “Fake News”, as some of you Rightists love to say. Liam Walsh made it clear that his Facebook post was “shitposting” i.e. posting a false claim. Being a dickhead wasn’t a criminal offence last time I checked.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  August 4, 2018

        No, but it is a requirement for the loony Left, phantom.

        Reply
  9. sorethumb

     /  August 4, 2018

    Ethnocentrism includes ethnic self-preference or ethnopreference and a negative attitude toward other ethnicities or races. Ethnocentrism has been a factor in human development and ethnic survival, although ethnic groups are not absolutely distinct or exclusive. Since World War II, the culture of European and European-American (Western) peoples has been loaded with media dramatizations associating their ethnocentrism with historical horrors and tragedy. The resulting repression of ethnocentrism and the psychological defense of “reaction formation” have produced distortions of behavior of some Western peoples, against the survival interest of the individual or group. The positive component of ethnocentrism, that we term “ethnopreference,” is neglected, unrecognized, or suppressed.

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v7n2/TOQV7N2John.pdf
    reaction formation
    nounPSYCHOANALYSIS
    the tendency of a repressed wish or feeling to be expressed at a conscious level in a contrasting form.

    Increasing diversity per se always seems to have the same negative effect (Putnam 2007: 153).
    Most notably, the negative effects of diversity are very clear and significant amongst liberals as well (Putnam 2007: 154), despite the widespread myth that liberals love diversity.

    And even amongst young people the somewhat more receptive attitude to diversity may be nothing but a passing phase of life (Putnam 2007: 155).

    Though Putnam does not discuss the issue, it seems rather obvious that greater diversity is more likely to destroy the chances for a democratic socialist society, a vision so beloved by the left.

    If anything, democratic socialism requires a high trust and hence highly homogeneous society. Diversity is more likely to reduce people to atomised, isolated people, disconnected and distrustful of the people around them.

    http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.com/2016/09/robert-putnam-on-negative-effects-of.html

    Reply
  10. sorethumb

     /  August 4, 2018

    Reply
  11. sorethumb

     /  August 4, 2018

    Jordan Peterson is getting the same treatment on Durham North Carolina with the same Valerie Morse grade arguments

    Ms. Johnson is a Black Lives Matter activist who is reluctant to identify with any political party.

    “We believe that Durham is a place for all of us — black, white, Asian, Latinx, indigenous, and mixed-race, trans and cis, gay and lesbian, queer, and straight, disabled and able-bodied, young and elderly, women, men, and non-binary, native and immigrant, secular and people of faith,” the statement read. “Those who seek to exclude or deny the humanity of others will find no comfort here.”

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jul/9/jordan-b-peterson-blasts-durham-city-council-autho/
    https://jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/durham-city-council-purchases-unearned-virtue-with-the-currency-of-denouncement/

    Reply
  12. sorethumb

     /  August 4, 2018

    Molyneux also cites debunked science claiming race determines levels of intelligence,

    While most people will agree that finding a genetic explanation for an elevated rate of disease is important, they often draw the line there. Finding genetic influences on a propensity for disease is one thing, they argue, but looking for such influences on behavior and cognition is another.

    But whether we like it or not, that line has already been crossed. A recent study led by the economist Daniel Benjamin compiled information on the number of years of education from more than 400,000 people, almost all of whom were of European ancestry. After controlling for differences in socioeconomic background, he and his colleagues identified 74 genetic variations that are over-represented in genes known to be important in neurological development, each of which is incontrovertibly more common in Europeans with more years of education than in Europeans with fewer years of education.

    Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  August 5, 2018

      If scientists avoid candidly acknowledging the proportionate socio-political irrelevance of the topic, they create the vacuum for racist theories … and nourish the racist theories which fill the vacuum …

      Who are all these ‘scientists’? I’ll wager they’re White folks eh?

      Have they thoroughly investigated their own prejudices … which we happen to know affect the outcomes of scientific studies …

      Reply
  13. sorethumb

     /  August 4, 2018

    Reply
  14. Gezza

     /  August 5, 2018
    Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  August 5, 2018

      Sounds like someone who has the capacity for self reflection and learns from his mistakes. It is a credit to a person when in later life they look back and curse the bad things they have said and done.

      Reply

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