Brexit is Titanic

“Brexit means Brexit, and we are going to make a TITANIC success of it”.

27 Comments

  1. PartisanZ

     /  August 16, 2018

    Yeah … That’s Right … You pull out of FTAs and Economic Unions at your own risk …

    Or rely on bare majority referendums in a populist environment …

    • Corky

       /  August 16, 2018

      Democracy…such an impediment to what people think should transpire.

      • PartisanZ

         /  August 16, 2018

        Well, in the case of a 50.5% majority its an impediment to and often a negation of what 49.5% of people think should transpire … or in other words “very nearly or a hair’s breadth less than half” …

        If you reckon that’s a useful outcome I guess you have the democracy you deserve …?

        • Missy

           /  August 16, 2018

          The EU referendum result was 52% to 48%, not 50.5% to 49.5%.

          So, maybe a little more than you thought…..

          • PartisanZ

             /  August 16, 2018

            Simple majority remains simple a long way beyond 52% to 48% …

            Imagine for a moment this represented 100 people having a tug-of-war?

            The 48 might easily be physically stronger than the 52 people …

            The same goes for arguments, common sense, compassion and ethics.

            Participatory democracy must be tempered with deliberative democracy …

            If people can deliberate together and arrive at a 75/25% or higher decision, then we have something really healthy going on ..

          • It was incidentally the Remain crowd that pushed for a simple majority as they were confident of winning but feared it might be by a small margin. Given that Cameron would not have held the referendum at all if he had not been totally confident of getting a Remain result, one could say the Remainers were hoist with their own petard.

            Does PartisanZ think that when the All Blacks win a match by 52 points to 48 the result should be cancelled as it is not “a useful outcome”? Or should it be deemed an approximate draw, or perhaps even some strange sort of ‘win’ for the losers? Maybe it is just a “negation of what the team scoring only 48 points think should transpire as they actually ‘very nearly won'”? Strange how the mind works.

            • Gezza

               /  August 17, 2018

              Yes I’m still pondering that one. While I can see that a 75/25% majority seems a more geninely democratic decision outcome, if a problem with democracy is that the majority’s will overrides the minority’s, surely it matters not whether the aggrieved minority are 25% or 48% – if their wishes have been ignored & they are obliged to abide by the majority’s decision?

              That said – there are certainly bound to be some circumstances where it is desirable that a simple majority is not enuf and a super majority – say 75% – should be required.

              Brexit doesn’t seem to be one of those circumstances. You are either in or out of the EU.

        • Corky

           /  August 16, 2018

          ”If you reckon that’s a useful outcome I guess you have the democracy you deserve.”

          You either have an agreed upon democracy or you don’t. There is no maybe. If the vote came down to one person voting to leave the EU…Britain would be obligated to leave. That’s democracy.

        • Missy

           /  August 17, 2018

          “If you reckon that’s a useful outcome I guess you have the democracy you deserve …?”

          That could be said of a coalition Government with 44.1% of the vote propped up by a party with 6.3% of the vote, only just getting over 50% (50.4% I believe)…..

          Maybe that isn’t a useful outcome either.

    • Missy

       /  August 16, 2018

      The single market is not an FTA, and all countries that currently have an FTA with the EU have said they are willing to roll them over to the UK in the interim until a more bespoke FTA has been negotiated. So they aren’t pulling out of the FTAs, as for Economic Union, the UK is not part of the Single Currency, so technically not part of the Economic Union.

      Parti, you sound like a Remainer to be honest, so here are some questions to you.

      1. Would you want NZ Parliament to be subservient to a ‘parliament’ based in a foreign country where other country’s get a say over our laws? Would you want NZ Parliament to have to implement laws they oppose?

      2. Do you think NZ should reinstate the Privy Council as our highest court? A Court based in a foreign country ruling on cases in NZ and overruling decisions of our highest court?

      3. Do you believe that NZ should have open borders and free movement of people from countries whose economy is so much worse than ours, be able to collect benefits, bring their foreign born spouses and have more rights than foreign spouses of NZers?

      4. Do you believe that NZ should cede control of our defence policy to a foreign power?

      5. Do you think NZ should cede the ability to negotiate trade deals that benefit NZ to a foreign entity?

      If you answer no to any (or all) of these I wonder why you believe the EU is a good thing and the UK should remain in the EU.

      the vote was not based on populism as you believe, that is the spin the remain and left biased media put on it, the main reason given by most people for voting leave is to regain control over laws, justice, trade, and borders. It isn’t populist to want your nation’s Parliament to control what happens in your country, it is natural.

      Calling it populist is what those who don’t want to debate the real issues say in order to dismiss the valid reasons people had to vote to leave.

      • PartisanZ

         /  August 16, 2018

        My first sentence I considered satirical Missy … You know … You can do this but you might wake up one morning with a horse’s head in your bed …

        So, okay, it may not be populist but the general thrust I’m getting is that they’re not going to pull off this Brexit thing … That either the ‘deliberative democracy’ process or powerful corporate-political elites’ vested interests, or both, are going to Trump (so to speak) the popular [but not populist] vote …? (I have to admit I haven’t followed it very closely) …

        Simple majority rule and risk of tyranny of the simple majority is what worries me …

        1) Yes. I believe all nations should relinquish some sovereignty for things like global security, global market regulation and taxation, global Human Rights etc etc … to a suitable global organisation like a reformed UN …

        more to follow …

        • PartisanZ

           /  August 16, 2018

          2) I believe we have reinstated the Privy Council? But anyhow, an Aotearoa New Zealand constituted Supreme Court is fine by me. That I believe this does not negate my tenuous and provisional position on Brexit …

          3) Open borders and free movement of people is a complex two-way payoff system in exchange for and integrated with open borders and free movement of goods, services & ‘investment’ [along with pests and diseases as it turns out] which Right-Wing neoliberalism deemed necessary and foisted upon us undemocratically … There are certainly some odd anomalies in it that could be corrected … But cheap goods & services only derive from cheap labour, either at home or abroad … So you gotta take care of your cheap labour … your ‘wage slaves’ …

          4) You jest, surely? We already have ceded our defense policy to a foreign power … the USA … and before that Britain … In fact, we probably never truly had a defense policy of our own? Most Righties don’t seem to agree with what little of our defense policy we set ourselves anyhow … Nuclear Free … selling the Skyhawks …

          5) If A-NZ was part of an economic union we may need to cede the ability to negotiate trade deals in some circumstances …

          I don’t necessarily want UK to stay in the EU … I concede my initial comment may have sounded as though I do …

          There’s no way you can deem wanting your Parliament to control everything that happens in your country “natural”. Firstly, I’m not talking about relinquishing control of everything. Secondly, I believe patriotism, like numerous other -isms, is learned and acculturated behaviour … which may not be natural at all …

          I believe is that the whole world should be working towards global agreement and united action when it comes to certain global issues … Global solutions for global problems … and that regional unions are an avenue towards that … Perhaps a global Federation of States …?

          The EU was, I believe, originally devised to prevent anything like World Wars One and Two happening again in Europe … That’s a one mighty fine aspiration as far as I’m concerned …

          • “The EU was, I believe, originally devised to prevent anything like World Wars One and Two happening again in Europe”

            You are very naive if you believe that. Research the connection between the fledgling EU and the Nazis towards the end of the War. The EU was set up to enable the Germans to subjugate Europe through economic means rather than the failed military ones. And it is proving very successful at that, to the severe detriment of EU countries other than Germany.

            If you read outside the BBC/Guardian Axis that suckles mightily and obediently on the EU teat, you will soon realise that the EU has all the trappings of a Totalitarian State and all the ambitions of a Super State; with a bit of fluff in the window to trick fools into believing otherwise. It is a nasty, despotic piece of work that traps people in its stifling eurocracy like flies in the web of a spider. I sincerely hope my dear ‘Alma Mater’ will wriggle free of its horrible clutches, and the clutches of the deceitful current UK Government that is hell-bent on keeping it trapped.

            PS: Sovereign is like pregnant: you either are or you are not. It cannot be shared, as the EU and its sycophants slyly claim. Cooperation is quite different, but it is not Britain’s cooperation that the EU wants, it is Britain’s sovereignty. And it has no right to that. The British people should be restored the sovereign right to hire and fire their political servants, which is THE fundamental aspect of Britain’s intelligently loose Constitution.

          • Missy

             /  August 17, 2018

            “I believe we have reinstated the Privy Council?”

            No, we haven’t. Historical cases up until the date we abolished the Privy Council are still able to be appealed to the PC, but no new cases are able to be.

            “But anyhow, an Aotearoa New Zealand constituted Supreme Court is fine by me. That I believe this does not negate my tenuous and provisional position on Brexit …”

            It doesn’t negate your position, but it does show an inconsistency that you believe NZ should have autonomy over its judicial system, but don’t believe the UK deserves the same level of autonomy and should remain in a political union that removes autonomy over their own legal system.

            “Open borders and free movement of people is a complex two-way payoff system in exchange for and integrated with open borders and free movement of goods, services & ‘investment’ [along with pests and diseases as it turns out] which Right-Wing neoliberalism deemed necessary and foisted upon us undemocratically … There are certainly some odd anomalies in it that could be corrected … But cheap goods & services only derive from cheap labour, either at home or abroad … So you gotta take care of your cheap labour … your ‘wage slaves’ …”

            It is interesting you claim that free movement of Labour is a right-wing neoliberalism idea. In the UK it is those on the right of the Conservative Party who are against free movement of Labour on the basis of it driving down wages, and it is those on the far left of Labour and in the Socialist Workers Party who wish to keep free movement of Labour, thus keeping prices (and wages) low.

            Yes, your initial comment did make it sound as though you were pro Remain.

            Human’s are tribal, we always have been, patriotism and nationalism are forms of tribalism, it is about a sense of belonging to a group of people who are like you, from a similar background, manifested as patriotism where we identify and feel like we belong to a group of people from the same country as us. I see it here every day, NZers, Australians, Irish, Scots, English, Welsh, Americans, Canadians…. they all identify and feel belonging to the group that they belong to – their nationality, which is grounded in the country they are from. It is natural that humans don’t want outside forces to have a say over how that group (whatever it may be) is run. Just because it is a more modern version of ancient tribalism doesn’t mean it isn’t real or natural.

            “I believe is that the whole world should be working towards global agreement and united action when it comes to certain global issues … Global solutions for global problems … and that regional unions are an avenue towards that … Perhaps a global Federation of States …?”

            Global agreements on global issues can be made without a global federation of states. The end goal of a federation of states was the goal of the Romans, the Ottomans, the British, the Third Reich, the USSR, in fact any country that had an empire.

        • Missy

           /  August 17, 2018

          So you appear to be saying you support a Global Government. For countries to lose their own independence in law making for some ideal, oh and taxation. Should this idealised higher authority also tell each country what their taxes are to spent on whilst telling them what taxes they want to charge?

  2. Sunny

     /  August 16, 2018

    I wonder where all the anti-brexit people stand on Australia and NZ becoming a union.

    • Blazer

       /  August 16, 2018

      who cares.

      • Sunny

         /  August 16, 2018

        Agree. Who cares…about brexit either. Their country, their choice.

    • Missy

       /  August 16, 2018

      Many of the one’s I have spoken to don’t understand why we keep the Queen as head of state, when I point out that she is a figurehead and the UK has no say in our laws they think it is a good thing, when I ask them why they don’t want the same for Britain their response is that it is different. I tell them it is different, as Britain hasn’t had the control over NZ that the EU has over the UK for almost 100 years, they have no argument to refute that and get into throwing the racism, xenophobic, little Englander, populist labels around about those that voted Leave.

      • PartisanZ

         /  August 16, 2018

        I don’t understand why we keep the Queen as Head of State either …

        I don’t believe she can be our Head of State and a figurehead and not have any “say” in our laws … If not directly, I mean by identification, persuasion and influence …

        A study of NZ History shows that we went cap-in-hand to Mother England to borrow money for infrastructure, public works and government finance repeatedly, decade after decade … and probably paid as much of a ‘Pommie Immigrant’ price then as we have to our Chinese lenders and American protectors lately …

        We certainly paid in blood to Britain for access to her protein markets in not one but two ‘World Wars’ …

        • Missy

           /  August 16, 2018

          If that is how you feel then you should understand and sympathise with those that voted Leave, not refer to them as populists.

          • PartisanZ

             /  August 16, 2018

            Your not making sense IMHO … The two options don’t correlate …

            Aotearoa NZ becoming a Republic but remaining in the Commonwealth simply doesn’t equate with Britain leaving the EU, does it?

            An equivalent situation might be like asking England to cede from the UK … or abolish the Monarchy …

            • Missy

               /  August 17, 2018

              No, not NZ becoming a Republic. Rather NZ having become independent from Britain, no longer having NZ laws made in the UK and no longer having our highest court of law based in a foreign nation, is like the UK leaving the EU.

          • “populist” eh? As in A supporter of the rights and power of the people? What a dreadful thing to be. Good job very few politicians fit that description.

            • Missy

               /  August 17, 2018

              I should have been clearer in stating that I meant that in the new pejorative and negative interpretation of populism.

              In the UK when they talk populism they are talking about far right values of racism, xenophobia, and isolation, this is not what the Brexit vote was about.

  3. Kitty Catkin

     /  August 16, 2018

    Titanic was a word long before the ship was named Titanic; it means enormous, like the Titans from whose name it was derived.

    I have little time for Boris Johnson, but his unfortunate use of the word needn’t have led to the trivialisation of the hideous tragedy that was the sinking of the Titanic.

  4. Here is an interesting comment that I encountered in a discussion about the horrors of a potential Corbyn PM in Britain trying to take down the Monarchy:

    our constitutional arrangements mean that dear old Lizzy occupies the space that the left would need to take and the Armed Forces swear allegiance to the crown not the PM. A rabble of masked, unwashed, blue-haired, facially pierced, gender studies failures is unlikely to be a match for the Brigade of Guards.

    The Monarchy (on a good day anyway) represents all the people, whereas the Government only represents the ones that voted for it. Whether that will continue when “dear old Lizzy” pops off is another matter. She has been dedicated to her duty all her life and is enormously popular with the ordinary folk of Britain. A Government would attack her at its very severe peril.