Greens – landfill levy (rubbish dump tax)

On the second and most important day of their annual conference the greens announced an environmental policy – a ‘universal landfill levy’ – in old vernacular, a rubbish dump tax.

It won’t happen until 2020 at the earliest and will be put to public consultation first.

I don’t know how well this will be received by the public, if it’s noticed much at all.


Associate Environment Minister Eugenie Sage has announced a programme of work to take action on New Zealand’s long-neglected waste problems.

Today at the Green Party’s 2018 Annual Conference in Palmerston North, Eugenie Sage announced a work programme approved by Cabinet to tackle waste by looking at options to better manage waste going into landfills, how to improve gathering of  data on waste and options to expand product stewardship schemes.

“Our Waste Minimisation Act is a great Act, which began as a member’s bill by Green MP Nandor Tanzcos and was picked up by the Clark Labour Government and passed in 2008, but it’s tools have not been used to the full,” Eugenie Sage said.

“Ten years on from 2008, the Green’s confidence and supply agreement commits this Government to minimising waste to landfill with significant reductions in all waste classes.

“Little action over the past decade has seen volumes of waste going to landfill increase and New Zealand has been left woefully unprepared for the impact of international events, like China’s decision to close its borders to the world’s low-quality recyclables.

“Today I am announcing that Cabinet has approved my work programme to deal with some of the big problems in waste.”

Eugenie Sage said the Ministry for the Environment would lead work on:

Landfill waste management, which would include options to expand the waste disposal levy to apply to more than 400 new landfills as a tool to encourage more materials recovery and diversion of material from landfill. There will be public consultation on the levy review.

Improving New Zealand’s waste data by requiring landfill operators to report on the composition and quantity of waste, and obtaining data from councils and the private sector on how much is reduced, reused and recycled.

Analysing where investment is most needed to help businesses minimise waste, increase our local processing capacity for recyclables and provide local jobs. Technical experts are also identifying priority sectors where waste can be significantly reduced and where changes in the supply chain can help.

Whether to implement a greater mix of voluntary and mandatory product stewardship schemes for products like vehicle tyres, e-waste (starting with lithium batteries), agrichemicals, and synthetic greenhouse gases to ensure we better manage their disposal.

“This work will generate a world leading step change in how we manage waste in New Zealand. This leadership will accelerate the long overdue shift to a circular approach to the economy and help to create a sustainable, productive and inclusive economy.”

 

157 Comments

  1. Gezza

     /  August 19, 2018

    I was just watching that on 1ewes at 6. Another bloody levy (#moretaxes).

    I can already see all extra the rubbish that will now be dumped in my bloody stream by people who will just say: “Fk ’em ! 😡 I’m not paying any more for it than I do now.”

    • robertguyton

       /  August 19, 2018

      So those who say, “Fk’em…” get more support from you than the party calling for a more appropriate fare for rubbish disposal?

      • Gezza

         /  August 19, 2018

        Be an idiot with somebody else please robert

        • robertguyton

           /  August 19, 2018

          Gezza: if the issue is people who say “Fk’em” to the true costs of waste disposal, who should you be targeting with your frustrations?

          • Gezza

             /  August 19, 2018

            The Greens. They thinking #moretaxes instead of how do we make this pay for itself without burdening people with more taxes and encouraging them to dump stuff out of sight into my fkn stream. I’m clearing it of enough rubbish already. I can’t go looking for who the hell is dumping it in there and nobody else will either.

            • robertguyton

               /  August 19, 2018

              As a community, we have to change our behaviour when it comes to waste creation. To do that, we have to pressure the creators of that waste. We’re not doing it willingly (do you protest the plastic wrapping on most of the products you buy at the supermarket by unwrapping at the checkout and leaving them to dispose of the waste?) so new incentives/disincentives are needed. Good on The Greens for beginning the discussion. Clearly it’s one that needs to be had!

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              Sanctimonious twaddle.

              Haven’t you seen the plastics recycling bin at the supermarket for packaging ?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              THAT has been going for some years now; it began under National. It was a government funded scheme at first.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              It has, PDTs, google it and see for yourselves. 2015, National.

              The Greens are kidding themselves that nobody has worried about waste until now when they have finally begun talking about it.

    • Ray

       /  August 20, 2018

      Well hasn’t Robert been busy little fireman, thirty comments on one post!
      And while he has been busy hosing down, he has not bothered to explain how a tax on a tax (we already pay for our rubbish to be deposed) will change behaviour except to make waste disposal more expensive and encourage illegal tipping.
      As I have said before the Greens are all about punishment but with different rules for their elites which reminds one of the worst of communist states.

      • robertguyton

         /  August 20, 2018

        30 comments, Ray! Thanks for the heads-up; I’ll make this my last.

        • Gezza

           /  August 20, 2018

          I’m a bit miffed with how the Greens are tackling this issue, robert, but I do find some of your comments on alternatives of interest & value.

  2. Kitty Catkin

     /  August 19, 2018

    Next Up; Air Tax on Breathing.

    Why not use the tyres for building or other useful things ?

    • robertguyton

       /  August 19, 2018

      “Air Tax on Breathing”
      Dopey suggestion.

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  August 19, 2018

        We pay $1.50 a 60 l black bag, the rates went down by the cost of two bags a week….so I save almost $150 a year. My next bag will be the 3rd this year, as I reduce, reuse, recycle and have a dedicated bag in the laundry (made from reused material 😀 ) for soft plastics. I will need to put a rubbish bag out in a month or so.

        Our ‘green bins are OSFA’, but they want paper to be bundled and put beside the bin.

        We have an Inorganic Collection, very useful, although they have cut down on what can go out in it.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  August 19, 2018

          That went in the wrong place.

          For someone who whines when he thinks that people are making personal slurs, you seem not to have any qualms about being gratuitously insulting yourself.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  August 20, 2018

            What is wrong with the idea of using tyres for building and the other uses to which they can be put, like rubber doormats ? It seems perferable to dumping them. Taxing them won’t make any difference to the numbers discarded; why not reuse them rather than burying them ?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 20, 2018

              I find it incomprehensible that people would think that dumping is better than recycling !

          • robertguyton

             /  August 20, 2018

            The suggestion that there will be a tax on breathing, your “Air Tax”, is dopey.
            There’s nothing “gratuitous” about calling it that; such a suggestion deserves to be called what it is. If you don’t want to collect such a response, don’t make dopey suggestions. In any case, the criticism is of the comment, not the commenter so can’t be regarded as a “personal slur” as you claim. Use that mind, master!

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 20, 2018

              It’s your opinion that it’s dopey. It’s sophistry to claim that an insult to someone’s words isn’t personal.

              Don’t be a nitpicker,

              You had already commented on the air tax – had you forgotten this ? Old age has its drawbacks, alas.

  3. Local councils already charge for rubbish (landfill, refuse disposal, rubbish dumping) so the Green levy will presumably be on top of that.

    Dunedin City Council rubbish bags:
    – 40 litre 3.00 each
    – 65 litre 3.20 each

    Dump charges:
    – car – small load $20, large load $45
    – station wagon – small load $32,large load $72
    – cars and single axle trailers, vans and utes – small load $48, large load $91

    http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/rubbish-and-recycling/landfill-charges-and-prices

    These all include ‘ETS’ which I presume is Emission Trading Scheme

    What does it cost elsewhere?

    • Pink David

       /  August 20, 2018

      In the UK, the landfill tax is about $180/ton. Given the EU landfill directive is the inspiration for this policy, I imagine the Greens have a number like this planned.

      Based on that level, those prices would roughly triple, or more.

  4. Gezza

     /  August 19, 2018

    Household collection:
    60 Litre Rubbish Bags $2.75 or $27.50 for a pack of 10

    Council website obviously designed by a millenial kid with no idea anyone might want to see the complete list of fees in one document – so you have click the radio dots for each one to find out what the charges are. Fk em.
    https://poriruacity.govt.nz/services/rubbish-and-recycling/spicer-landfill/.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  August 19, 2018

      We pay $3/bag but a huge amount gets separated and recycled here. Paper, cardboard, green, brown and clear glass, two kinds of milk, clear, green/brown or misc plastic containers, tins and aluminium cans. Plus batteries, whiteware and electronics.

      Well, certainly it gets separated and hopefully it is recycled after it is trucked away.

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  August 19, 2018

        We pay $1.50 a 60 l black bag, the rates went down by the cost of two bags a week….so I save almost $150 a year. My next bag will be the 3rd this year, as I reduce, reuse, recycle and have a dedicated bag in the laundry (made from reused material 😀 ) for soft plastics. I will need to put a rubbish bag out in a month or so.

        Our ‘green bins are OSFA’, but they want paper to be bundled and put beside the bin.

        We have an Inorganic Collection, very useful, although they have cut down on what can go out in it.

  5. Matt Oliver

     /  August 19, 2018

    Another tax on a tax. We pay for the rubbish dumps (through rates +GST on the rates), then pay to use the dump, plus GST of course, now you want to add another levy (plus more GST again I bet). Greens Snatch and Take policy. Nope, I don’t support this idea one little bit.
    Recycling won’t be made profitable through tax.

  6. Ray

     /  August 19, 2018

    There has never been a tax/levy that the Greens don’t love, maybe one on hemp or beards might fail that definition but you all know what I mean.

    • robertguyton

       /  August 19, 2018

      Wake up, everybody: we are complicit in the creation of so much waste, we will be buried in it unless we do something meaningful about it: charging significantly for waste disposal will bring the issue to the forefront of popular thinking. We have forever, dumped our waste at a cost, not to us, but to the environment and to our children and theirs. If you personally don’t wish to be charged for waste disposal, don’t produce any!!!

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  August 19, 2018

        Of course it’s a cost to us. How on earth do you think it has been paid for?

      • PDB

         /  August 20, 2018

        All that will happen is illegal dumpings will increase at the expense of ratepayers to remove at a much higher cost at the dump. It will cost us all more in the end regardless of your personal waste disposal practices.

  7. Alan Wilkinson

     /  August 19, 2018

    What is this tax supposed to pay for? “Experts” in talk-fests or is it just a tax for the sake of having a tax?

    • robertguyton

       /  August 19, 2018

      It’s designed to bring the reality of waste creation and disposal into the mind of “the public”. For too long, we’ve been unconscious of what our wasteful lives are doing to the environment and the community.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  August 19, 2018

        Anyone who has just paid their rates will realise just how fatuous that is, Robert.

        • robertguyton

           /  August 19, 2018

          Are they proposing an increase through rates, Alan, or user-pays; that is, if you have a bin-full to be disposed-of, you pay for that.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  August 19, 2018

            We already pay for it, you clowns. Why do you think we should pay twice for it.

          • Pink David

             /  August 19, 2018

            “Are they proposing an increase through rates, Alan, or user-pays; that is, if you have a bin-full to be disposed-of, you pay for that.”

            As your policy is very similar to the EU landfill directive, would you care to explain why council rates in the UK increased so much to deal with the impacts of the taxes & fines introduced there? One council I know of now has no less than 5 different recycling bins, all collected on different schedules. Do you think that comes for free?

            The funny bit being almost all of it ends up in incinerators. There simply isn’t any use for most of the output of the recycling plants. Almost the entire amount of waste that has been diverted from landfill is now incinerated.

            This is what actually happens under your policy.

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  August 19, 2018

        I have to admit that our council doesn’t make us pay twice for this service, Alan,they did reduce the set charge for rubbish removal. It suits people like me who use very little rubbish, but some people still think that they are paying twice for rubbish.

        Robert must be using the royal or editorial we.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  August 19, 2018

          We already user-pay for our rubbish disposal on top of our rates. And now Robert and the Greens want to impose a tax as well. Idiocy.

    • Ray

       /  August 19, 2018

      Judging by their efforts so far it is punishment and the monies collected will allow the Green MP elites Business Class trips to Conferences on the other side of the world staying at the very best hotels of course.
      The last Parliamentary Enviroment committee trip was to the UK to see how they keep the lower classes down, oops I mean how to arrange the red tape.

      • robertguyton

         /  August 19, 2018

        That’s not smart at all. The proposed levy is intended to create behavioural change; don’t gather up stuff that has to be disposed-of and you won’t have to pay a cent.

        • Ray

           /  August 19, 2018

          Terrific, just leave it lying about then, doesn’t sound like a way to make the environment better to me.
          It would be better to pay people to collect rubbish and dispose of it in the most sustainable way possible but that doesn’t seem to be the Green way.
          Like I said above there isn’t a tax the Greens doesn’t like.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  August 19, 2018

            I am not a fan of leaving it lying around, either, Ray,

            I am surprised to hear Robert advocating not gathering it up !

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              How bizarre that I am downticked for that and Ray upticked for the same thing.

              PDTs are childishly downticking because of the person, not their views. Whatever gives you pleasure, PDTs.

        • robertguyton

           /  August 20, 2018

          “Don’t gather stuff up” – by which I meant don’t buy stuff that’s destined to become rubbish requiring disposal by the means that presently cost money; if you don’t want to pay, don’t gather stuff; it’s a personal responsibility thing, Righties.

          • PDB

             /  August 20, 2018

            Guyton: “The proposed levy is intended to create behavioural change”

            It will by creating more illegal dumpings for ratepayers to pay for.

  8. artcroft

     /  August 19, 2018

    Great, more rubbish left on the side of the road cos a***holes won’t pay the tax.

    • robertguyton

       /  August 19, 2018

      Sort out the a***holes (bet the greenies aren’t counted amongst them; if not greenies, the who’s doing the dumping: non-greenies???)

      • Gezza

         /  August 19, 2018

        Has to come out of current taxes robert. Sit down with the other parties and work out what gets dropped off the Budget list. Maybe diplomacy, overseas aid, corporate welfare, whatever – has to be cost neutral or they’re not trying hard enuf.

        • robertguyton

           /  August 19, 2018

          It’s a user-pays tax, isn’t it? If you don’t produce any waste, you don’t have to pay.
          In any case,
          “It won’t happen until 2020 at the earliest and will be put to public consultation first.”
          What’s with all the panic?

          • Gezza

             /  August 19, 2018

            What? You want every road tolled as well? My rates are increasing every year. Petrol’s going up. My groceries are already going up. The only thing not increasing is my income. The chicken doesn’t vote for the bloody axe. They need to be doing smart thinking not #moretax thinking.

            • robertguyton

               /  August 19, 2018

              Roads?
              Don’t follow your (seemingly overheated) logic there, Gezza.
              If you don’t produce waste, you’ll not have to pay for its disposal; how is that not fair?

            • Gezza

               /  August 19, 2018

              I’m already paying for it.

              Roading:
              Revenue for land transport comes mostly from motorists through fuel excise duty (petrol tax), road user charges on diesel vehicles (RUC), and vehicle licensing charges. The Land Transport Management Act 2003 ring-fences this revenue for investment in land transport, including building and maintaining State highways and local roads.

              State highways are funded entirely by central government, with maintenance responsibilities and expenses falling on the NZ Transport Agency.

              The costs of building and maintaining local roads are shared between central government (through the NZ Transport Agency) and local councils. Councils contribute to the cost of their land transport activities from rates and borrowing, in what is known as the ‘local share’.

              The government’s priorities for land transport funding are set out through the Government Policy Statement on Land Transport, which allocates ranges within which road improvements and maintenance can be funded. Each local council then prepares a Regional Land Transport Plan, which the NZ Transport Agency considers when preparing the National Land Transport Programme (NLTP). The NLTP allocates funding to individual roading projects. This separation of the Minister from individual funding decisions is designed to help avoid perceptions of conflict of interest.

              From time to time the government may wish to fund projects which are unable or unsuitable to be funded by charges on motorists alone, or might want to exercise more control over investment than is permitted through this process. In these cases the Crown is able to direct additional funds through the usual Budget processes. Recent examples of this are funding for the Accelerated Regional Roads Package, Urban Cycleways and the SuperGold Card public transport scheme.

              By your logic if you use the road you should pay a toll and scrap all the rest. Pfft!

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              We could all live in trees, Gezza, and walk everywhere.

            • Pink David

               /  August 19, 2018

              “If you don’t produce waste, you’ll not have to pay for its disposal; how is that not fair?”

              Robert, it would be great if you and your Green Party explained this goal to the NZ public. A waste free society is an extremely poor one.

              I can just see you now admiring all those Venezuelan’s searching through the trash looking for something to eat. No waste there…..

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              Unless people eat animal bones, fruit stones and other things that can’t be composted, any society will have some form of waste.

              Wastefree is never going to happen.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              All right, PDTs, explain how it can be done instead of pointlessly downticking the obvious statement that it can’t be.

              Do you nbuy and eat skin, bones, hooves, claws, teeth and all when you eat animal corpses (meat) ? If not, where do you put them ? or where do you think that they go ?

              .

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              Great answer, PDT, most informative.

            • robertguyton

               /  August 20, 2018

              “Do you nbuy (sic) and eat skin, bones, hooves, claws, teeth and all when you eat animal corpses (meat) ? If not, where do you put them ? or where do you think that they go ?”
              Into a compost head, a soup, a Bokashi bucket, a hole in the ground…
              How was that answer too difficult for a mastermind like you?
              I have to say though, that I don’t buy a lot of claws, teeth or hooves; do you???

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 20, 2018

              I am vegetarian, I don’t buy and cook animal carcases, so that doesn’t apply to me.

              If you make soup from the heads, bones,skins, teeth and claws, they will need to be disposed of afterwards unless you eat them.

              Good luck composting bones, teeth and claws in a compost head (sic). Burying them = landfill. Bones thousands of years old have been discovered.

              Just because you haven’t put them into landfill yourself doesn’t mean that they have not been put in by someone.If you buy dead animals minus claws, teeth and hooves, these things have either been buried or burned. A small amount may be made into blood and bone, but I would guess that most isn’t.

        • robertguyton

           /  August 20, 2018

          Kitty asked:
          “Do you nbuy and eat skin, bones, hooves, claws, teeth and all when you eat animal corpses (meat) ? If not, where do you put them ? or where do you think that they go ?”
          If not, where do I put them? Nonsequitur, Kitty, surely? Or just nonsense: if I don’t buy stuff, where do I put it???
          Where do I think the bits I don’t buy, go?
          Pet food. That’s where I think they go. Or sausages. That possibility keeps me from ever eating sausages. Bones and teeth into meal for hen or plant food, maybe farmed fish. Landfill, you reckon, Kitty? Not a very imaginative answer.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  August 20, 2018

            Non sequitur, it’s two words.

            You said ‘into a hole in the ground’, which is another name for landfill,The lack of imagination was yours. Or, you said, into soup (bone, skin and tooth soup, ick) or into a compost ‘head’ .

            You said nothing about pet food; that’s an obvious face-save.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 20, 2018

              If you think that either sausages or pet food are made of claws, hooves, bones, skin and teeth, you must be non compos mentis.

            • robertguyton

               /  August 20, 2018

              I told you where I put, or would put the things you listed. Compost head/heap was a typo (not a tyop). Have you not heard the bone soup, where the marrow is the desired ingredient, is very popular amongst the Weston Price set? Pet food? It wouldn’t surprise me to have confirmation that chicken legs, claws intact, the skin of slaughtered animals, their hooves or parts thereof and more, goes into pet food. I know the cadmium-heavy offal does, that which can’t be sold overseas because of the toxic levels of cadmium applied to our New Zealand soils by farmers, so doubtless there’s other “Undesirable” materials in pet food as well. Ground hoof? Probably, is my guess.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 20, 2018

              ‘Tyop’ is a well-established deliberate typo used for humorous effect. I am amazed that you have never encountered it before. Greens are not renowned for their sense of humour, alas.

              Marrow is IN the bone, it’s not the bone itself,

  9. Pink David

     /  August 19, 2018

    “Little action over the past decade has seen volumes of waste going to landfill increase and New Zealand has been left woefully unprepared for the impact of international events, like China’s decision to close its borders to the world’s low-quality recyclables.”

    How does taxing rubbish going to landfill have anything to do with the Chinese ban on recyclables, other than increase the cost of this disposal…

    • robertguyton

       /  August 19, 2018

      You have a suggestion for the problem of waste disposal in NZ, Pink David? Let’s hear it!

      • Pink David

         /  August 19, 2018

        Yes. Landfill. It works remarkably well, is sustainable and has the added bonus of being very cheap.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  August 19, 2018

          And the extra bonus of lifting us higher above Griff and his dreaded sea level rise.

          • Pink David

             /  August 19, 2018

            There is that. There is also the bonus that as we get better technology, any useful resources put into landfill can simply be mined back out.

        • robertguyton

           /  August 20, 2018

          Chuck it in a hole in the ground, David?
          Inspirational!
          Have you any idea how many problems occur as a result of that practice?
          Leachate to groundwater and methane to air aside, having a Big Hole to biff redundant crap into encourages continued consumption of short-lived products and does nothing to reverse the massive waste-stream that is padded-out with packaging; single-use, last a lifetime or more. BAU is not an option.

          • Pink David

             /  August 20, 2018

            “Leachate to groundwater and methane to air aside, having a Big Hole to biff redundant crap into encourages continued ”

            A number of things can be done here. Leachate can be treated and contained in the landfill with good engineering. The landfill is then capped and the methane captured and burned for energy. Landfills can also be aerated, which leads to a much faster break down (20 years down to 4 or so) and stablisation. Operators don’t like this, as it significantly reduces the gas that can be very profitably burned for energy at very attractive feed-in tariffs that the UK govt subsidies.

            “BAU is not an option.”

            That is an ideological decision made by you. The actual outcome of your ideas can be seen in Europe, all the waste that used to go to landfill ends up in an incinerator. Waste volumes are not reduced at all.

            The other serious issue is that all those landfills that used to get a good mixture of waste, now get almost entirely a mix of food and plastic wastes. That has led to leachate being far more toxic and much harder to treat.

            Your ideas are foolish, and have bad outcomes for the environment. I do not believe you care about the environment at all, your goal is clearly just to mess with peoples lives for your own pleasure.

      • Gerrit

         /  August 19, 2018

        Land Fills are extremely good for electric power generation. The local Greenmount tip has been closed since 1990 and the biomass contained in the mountain of rubbish has been generating electricity, via the methane gas produced, ever since. Enough to power 10,000 homes continuously (along with the long closed Rosedale tip land fill site).

        https://www.bioenergyfacilities.org/facility/greenmount-landfill

        More landfill = more electricity.
        More electricity = more EV cars

        What is not to like about a landfill?

        Now if we were to use more biodegradeable plastics, we would generate even higher levels of methane to power more gas electricity generators.

        https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/biodegradable-plastics-emit-methane-faster/

        • Gerrit

           /  August 19, 2018

          Just for comparison, the Tesla Battery in South Australia can only supply electricity to 30,000 homes for 1 hour.

          Making landfill much cheaper to produce electricity than the $50M spend on a Tesla battery.

          • chrism56

             /  August 19, 2018

            They could generate a lot more electricity if they burned the rubbish in large incinerators like most of Europe and North America does.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste-to-energy_plant But the Greens were against that as recycling was going to stop landfills. How times change.

          • Griff.

             /  August 20, 2018

            The stunning numbers behind success of Tesla big battery
            https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-stunning-numbers-behind-success-of-tesla-big-battery-63917/

            During Australian Energy Week, McKinsey and Co. partner Godart van Gendt boasted about the stunning efficiency of the 100-megawatt Powerpack system, which is connected to Neoen’s Hornsdale wind farm.

            “In the first four months of operations of the Hornsdale Power Reserve, the frequency ancillary services prices went down by 90 percent, so that’s 9-0 per cent,” van Gendt said Thursday, as quoted by Renew Economy.

            “And the 100 megawatt battery has achieved over 55 percent of the FCAS revenues in South Australia. So it’s 2 percent of the capacity in South Australia achieving 55 percent of the revenues in South Australia.”

            The Australian Energy Market Operator calls upon the FCAS to provide back-up energy whenever generators fail or fall short. This service has typically relied upon costly gas generators and steam turbines, with electricity rates up to $14,000 per megawatt during these outages.

            But Tesla’s big battery, which was designed to feed South Australia’s unstable power grid, has changed the game. Whenever it has needed to discharge its power to the grid, costs have hovered as low as $270 per megawatt, as The Guardian noted.

            As Renew Economy noted, “various estimates have put the cost savings to consumers from the FCAS market alone at around $35 million, just in the first four months of its operation.”

            It cost 100million to build and saved consumers 35 million in the first four months of operation.
            That’s what I call a good ROI.

            • Gerrit

               /  August 20, 2018

              Tesla Battery backed up by 9 gas/diesel powered back up generators. Battery capacity is 30,000 homes for 1 hour. Back up generators required for the other 23 hours, the next 24 hours and the 24 hours after that, ad infinitum.

              Saving $35M but at a cost of $360M.

              ROI, is good if measured jus tt for the battery. Disastrous when the cost of back up generators is taken into account.

              http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-21/cost-of-sa-state-owned-power-station-finally-revealed/9279852

            • Griff.

               /  August 20, 2018

              Non sequitur.
              It does not follow that the battery is in anyway linked to the need to purchase the generating plants..
              They were required before the battery was installed .

          • robertguyton

             /  August 20, 2018

            What percentage NZ-wide?

            • Gerrit

               /  August 20, 2018

              Get of your shiny…do the research yourself.

            • robertguyton

               /  August 20, 2018

              Meh, electricity generation from decaying rubbish doesn’t interest me much. Changing our collective consumption and waste-creation behaviour does.

  10. Pink David

     /  August 19, 2018

    “Analysing where investment is most needed to help businesses minimise waste, increase our local processing capacity for recyclables and provide local jobs. ”

    Recycling jobs are almost entirely low skill, low wage ones. How is this comparable with the claims of trying to improve NZ productivity?

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  August 19, 2018

      I read that while polyprop ‘green bags’ can be recycled, they can’t in Australia (and not here either for the same reason) that they have to be unpicked because the stitching can’t be recycled…and it’s not economic to pay people to do that.

      • Pink David

         /  August 19, 2018

        ” it’s not economic to pay people to do that.”

        Well, only if they use slaves to do it….i.e. make you do it at home by law, and use anti-terror laws to monitor people who recycle incorrectly. (yes, this really has happened in the UK).

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  August 19, 2018

          Be fair, Pink; they use surveillance cameras to monitor illegal dumping (or so I understand it) 😀

          In Germany, every house has to have seperate bins IN THE HOUSE for green, brown and clear glass, corks, different plastics, paper, card, tins etc etc….too bad if you don’t USE those things, that won’t get you out of it. One woman I met lived in a small apartment and had so little room left in the kitchen that it was difficult to get in and use it.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  August 19, 2018

            Yes, it is that, they are using the technology but not the laws.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              I wouldn’t mind unpicking a bag, but I bet that most of these go in the dustbin.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  August 19, 2018

              Hello, Robert.

  11. David

     /  August 19, 2018

    The Greens pointed out the tax switch/gst rise was regressive and hurts the poorest people the hardest so how do they square that with road tolls, waste tax, petrol tax, carbon tax etc etc.
    Just wonder if one side of the party consults the other as it seems the whole Green party is literally opposed to what they want to achieve. Maybe thats why they want to reclaim the C word so they can appropriately describe their situation.

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  August 19, 2018

      Unflattering to cunts…..or did you mean crap ?

  12. artcroft

     /  August 20, 2018

    Greens: making NZ colder, sicker and dirtier.

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  August 20, 2018

      Ban All Mining: Let the Bastards Freeze in the Dark. (bumper sticker)

      Some Greens are horribly sanctimonious and holier-than-thou.

  13. Griff.

     /  August 20, 2018

    Right wing thinking.
    User pays.
    Except when its you who has to pay.
    Rubbish disposal is a cost .
    Now china no longer is willing to take our garbage at cheap rates we have a mounting mountain of recyclable matter that will take money to dispose of.
    A levy on those who produce this crap will allow us to make use of it.
    It is simple.
    Stop buying over packaged tat like fruit that is individuality wrapped and you will not end up paying more to dispose of unnecessary packaging .

    • robertguyton

       /  August 20, 2018

      Dead right, Griff.

      • Gezza

         /  August 20, 2018

        The proposed levy is intended to create behavioural change; don’t gather up stuff that has to be disposed-of and you won’t have to pay a cent.

        “Don’t gather stuff up” – by which I meant don’t buy stuff that’s destined to become rubbish requiring disposal by the means that presently cost money; if you don’t want to pay, don’t gather stuff; it’s a personal responsibility thing, Righties.

        Too much like smacking the kids or the missus about, or collective punishment from the authoritarian regime, for not doing what they want, robert.

        It’s not just “Righties” who’ll get hit by increased tip charges. It’ll be the ordinary & the low income folks.

        All very well for you live-off-the-land long-surviving hippy type guys to say this will MAKE the producers of this waste suffer, by making YOU suffer if you buy it – but the fact is average consumers too often simply don’t have the choice about whether or not the products they need – or can afford – come in damned plastic packaging.

        They’re among the ones who’ll dump it into my bloody stream: the ones who already dump their empty cheezles packets, drink bottles, paint tubs, & old roofing iron, carpet squares, old insulation, carpet cutoffs, & shopping trolleys, into it.

        If you want to hit the producers – figure out a better way than punishing the whole village.

        Where the hell are all the Green producers of scaleable affordable alternatives, all ready to go with recyclable or biodegradeable replacement products? You’ve had decades to organise this.

        • Gezza

           /  August 20, 2018

          *had decades

        • robertguyton

           /  August 20, 2018

          Our consumption-based society has to change, Gezza; we are depleting the earth’s natural capital wastefully; every man and his dog uses excessive amounts of what should more often than not be left in the ground (e.g.; plastic, plastic, plastic) as evidenced by the gigantic mountains of trash we create year in, year out. Making the consumer/dumper pay for what passes through their hands is the fair way to change behaviour. If you have a bag of trash that has to be disposed of by the community in a way that’s effective (not dumping it in a creek, for example) that person should be directly responsible, through cash payment, for the disposal. If you don’t create rubbish, you shouldn’t have to pay for those who do; it’s a personal responsibility thing and when people realise they can save a fortune by not buying crappy goods in the first place, the change will occur. It incentivises change, for the better.
          As for “the Green producers of …” there are a multitude of producers, products and systems available for these purposes, Gezza; which ones to you especially want to know about? I’ve already alerted our resident mastermind to the Bokashi system; do you run one?

          • Gezza

             /  August 20, 2018

            Making the consumer/dumper pay for what passes through their hands is the fair way to change behaviour.

            We’re already paying for it thru rates & tip fees. I’m just not putting up with that sanctimonious claptrap, robert. If you want to force people like me to stop buying frozen vegetables & other frozen consumables in platstic bags, get honest about it & put the brownshirts, grab some Greenie feminazis (not literally: you’ll be a dead man or a eunuch in 2 seconds), arm yourselves to the teeth, & all head on down to the supermarkets & FORCE people to stay away from the freezers & fill their pockets & their forced-purchased hemp bags & backpacks with loose vegies, fruits & nuts & be honest about what you’re doing.

            • Gezza

               /  August 20, 2018

              *put ON the brownshirts (hemp, $27.50, 80% discount, for Green Party Members)

            • robertguyton

               /  August 20, 2018

              Gezza. Tip fees are not sufficient to manage the rapidly burgeoning problem of waste disposal in New Zealand. A change of behaviour is needed. There are many, many steps that can be taken to seriously reduce the amount of waste we create. You’re fixated on the idea/fear of force, I see.. You are already forced to pay rubbish-disposal fees now; do you object to those as well?

            • Gezza

               /  August 20, 2018

              Who’s got it in for cheap hemp shirts ! 😡

            • Griff.

               /  August 20, 2018

              No one is forcing you Gezza.
              Such nonsense is what we usually expect from the more intellectually challenged righties.
              Its called free market economics.
              They are making you pay the cost of your choices for dumping the waste products of your life style on the commons.

            • robertguyton

               /  August 20, 2018

              One of my conventional farmer/councillor mates tells me his equally conventional farming neighbour has applied for a license to grow hemp on a commercial scale.

            • Gezza

               /  August 20, 2018

              Bokashi system? For one horrible moment I had visions of you crashing your burning hemp & bamboo hang glider into the deck of a US aircraft carrier, robert. And then I thought, ok, maybe that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Did they invent plastic?

              In Bokashi composting, kitchen scraps of all kinds — including meat and dairy products banned from aerobic systems — are mixed with some of the inoculated bran, pressed into the Bokashi bucket, covered with another handful of bran, and tightly covered. When the bucket is full, it is sealed shut and set aside for ten to twelve days. Every other day during that time, the leachate that is an inevitable byproduct of anaerobic composting needs to be drawn off. That’s the only care required. (This is very easy with a commercial Bokashi Bucket which has a spigot for this purpose.) When the bucket is opened, the contents, though recognizable, are thoroughly pickled. At this stage, the “pre-compost” as one company brochure terms it can be buried in a fallow spot in the garden. One Caution: It is still so acidic that plant roots should not come in contact with it for two to four weeks.
              https://www.planetnatural.com/composting-101/indoor-composting/bokashi-composting/

              Since the recent invention of the refrigerator in 2014 I hardly have any green waste or meat bones to dispose of. There’s a lot of space & management needed too – & time spent waiting for the by-product to be processed & then non-acidic involved in this system. It might be ok for your thatched mud hut but could be a bit of an ask for erks forced to live in the shoe box apartments that are all they can afford.

            • robertguyton

               /  August 20, 2018

              Gezza; Bokashi “buckets” are specifically designed for those who live in “shoebox apartments”; that’s where they do best. For me, squatting in my thatched mud hut, they are unnecessary; I just tip my food scraps onto the floor for the Guinea pigs to scavenge. Bokashi systems suit tiny spaces; they are odour-free, compact and the “pickled” contents can be disposed of in a small garden or any available soil. I know many people, especially older folk living in units, who use Bokashi buckets and find them an excellent solution to waste-food management. The plants fed with the products grow exceptionally well, it’s worth noting.

            • Gezza

               /  August 20, 2018

              80% discounts on the hemp brown shirts to Green members is unfair, Robert. Some people would call that CORRUPTION!

              Just saying.

              Actually that reminds me, it looked like Country Calendar last nite featured a farming family making a go of the manufacture & sale of hemp oil. They appeared to be claiming all sorts of health benefits. Must watch that today on TVNZ On Demand.

            • robertguyton

               /  August 20, 2018

              Unfair to whom ? Gezza?

            • Gezza

               /  August 20, 2018

              People who don’t live in thatched mud huts with guinea pigs on the floor & make public service CEO job requirements include giving birth with 18 months, robert.

            • Gezza

               /  August 20, 2018

              *within

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  August 20, 2018

              Tip fees are not sufficient to manage the rapidly burgeoning problem of waste disposal in New Zealand

              Utter bs totally unsupported by evidence. The bugeoning problem of local govt bureaucracy is what is unsustainable and all the Greens will achieve is adding to it. Domestic waste disposal is already totally user pays up here. You don’t know what you are talking about.

            • Zedd

               /  August 20, 2018

              @Gezza

              I bought my Hemp shirt & trousers in a shop.. not through the Green party. The difference being they may cost more than cotton, BUT they last 10x longer & they are 100% organic.

              Cotton is one of the biggest users of chemical fertilisers/pesticides.. Hemp does not require either; Hemp for Victory (over pollution) 🙂

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  August 20, 2018

          As the bags that the frozen veg come in can be returned to the soft plastics bin and turned into useful furniture, they are not an issue. What IS one is the sort of packaging that can’t be recycled.

      • robertguyton

         /  August 20, 2018

        Here ya go, Gezza; these people show how it’s done:
        https://www.facebook.com/TheRubbishTrip/?rc=p

          • robertguyton

             /  August 20, 2018

            Read it;
            Today, only 1 percent of Sweden’s waste winds up in landfills. Half of it is recycled and 49 percent is burned in waste-to-energy facilities, up from 39 percent in 1999.”
            Makes a mockery of those here who suggest NZ rubbish should “go to landfills”.
            Incinerators could be an answer to the problem we face; why, do you think, didn’t National build a raft of them when they were in power? They’re for the environment, aren’t they?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  August 20, 2018

              Probably because it would take decades to get a resource consent even if you could.

          • Griff.

             /  August 20, 2018

            ROFL
            Its all the goberments fault according to Alan
            The first time it was novel whenever that was.
            Half a dozen times a day it gets boring as.
            Especially as you never support your hate of the goverment with any content.

            by the way you really dont have an idea
            The rapidly growing mountain of recyclable material formally taken by china is not paid for .
            Now they will not take our crap so we will need to pay for recycling it it somehow.
            I would much rather those that produce the rubbish pay for it than me having to pay more in rates even though I try to minimize the amount that leaves my property.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  August 20, 2018

              Just check how rate increases have surpassed inflation, Griff. I shouldn’t have to tell you but you are obviously deaf in one ear.

            • PDB

               /  August 20, 2018

              We’ll all be paying more through our rates once illegal dumpings go through the roof as people will not pay excessive dumping fees. Already it’s on the rise.

              “People dumping rubbish illegally are costing Auckland ratepayers close to $1 million a year.

              Parts of Auckland, particularly in the city’s south and often close to people’s houses, are routinely being hit by illegal dumping, with some rubbish piles growing so big they need security.

              Figures obtained from Auckland Council under the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act show the cost of cleaning up illegally dumped rubbish has steadily grown over the past three financial years.”

              “In total over the past financial year, there was more than 1300 tonnes of illegally dumped rubbish in the Auckland council areas, with 800 tonnes of this dumped in south Auckland.”.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/92059757/clean-up-costs-for-illegal-dumping-increasing-in-auckland

            • Gezza

               /  August 20, 2018

              Not a problem. robert and co will be able to do horse-mounted rifle patrols and shoot the perps.

            • Gezza

               /  August 20, 2018

              (Rates may have to rise a little bit more to pay the people who will have to go round afterwards cleaning up the horse poo & processing it for compost)

  14. Zedd

     /  August 20, 2018

    What was the point of changing the Govt. inc. with the Green party, IF the people did just want ‘More of the same’ ideologies we have seen from Nat-Act for 9 loooong years ?

    There is no magical place called ‘Away’ were all the garbage & PLASTIC disappear to when you put your garbage & recycle bin on the footpath each week. It has to be actually put somewhere or reprocessed. Just dumping it in a big hole in the ground, is not the solution, if it does not breakdown OR eventually ends up in rivers or the ocean.. killing all the fish & other organisms in the interim.

    We only have one planet & we need to take off the ‘Rose tinted glasses’ that make it seem that everything is just OK as it is…. 😦

    “VIVA LA REVOLUCION !!” 🙂

    • Gezza

       /  August 20, 2018

      How much did you pay for your hemp shirt and trousers, where did you get them from, what colours are they and how long ago was it?

      • Zedd

         /  August 20, 2018

        Over 15 years since I bought the white shirt (in Aust.) & about 10 yrs since I bought my Black-dyed trousers (Hempstore in Akld) I think they were about $80..but some ‘label-brand’ jeans are similar price & last only a fraction of that time.

        • Gezza

           /  August 20, 2018

          Interesting. I might have a google later. They need to get the price down to get em into the Warehouse maybe.

          • Zedd

             /  August 20, 2018

            I agree.. but Hemp is still seen as a ‘novelty’ crop & is not very widely grown in most countries. Therefore the cost is HIGH
            btw; I have been asked by some people ‘can you get stoned from smoking it ?’ how narrow minded. If I wanted to get high, Id smoke cannabis bud, not the fibre (<0.5% THC)

            • Gezza

               /  August 20, 2018

              I’d smoke the leaves out of season – but mainly the new tip growth, to help the thing bush, if it was legal.

            • Zedd

               /  August 20, 2018

              ‘I’d smoke the leaves out of season..’ as have I 🙂
              but certainly NOT the stem or processed fibre, eff. totally inert

              There is a saying, ‘you would need to smoke a joint as big as a telephone pole to get high on it’ 😦
              That would be desperation to the MAX !

        • Zedd

           /  August 20, 2018

          BUT if you really want Hemp cloths, look for 100% Hemp.. many sold in NZ are 50-50% cotton-Hemp or other fibre blends. Not as strong or long-lasting

          Original ‘Levis Blue Jeans’.. 100% Hemp 🙂

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  August 20, 2018

      If it doesn’t break down it will be perfectly safe in a big hole in the ground until someone needs it.

      • Griff.

         /  August 20, 2018

        Are you really as silly as you make out Alan?

      • robertguyton

         /  August 20, 2018

        Have you read Riddley Walker, Alan? Post apocalyptic gangs scavenge old refuse sites for technologies no one knows haw to make any more. Filfy wurk.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  August 20, 2018

          Have you not seen how new technologies make remining old tailings feasible?

          • robertguyton

             /  August 20, 2018

            Old tailings aren’t a complex mix of discarded bits of all the crap we chuck out, mixed together, left to rot, rust and otherwise decay, a hazard to the health of anyone opening them up, not to mention the release of greenhouse gases as it’s done, to mention a few of the challenges for anyone planning to mine rubbish dumps in the future. Imagine a million of those disposable nappies and their contents mixed in with copper tubing and asbestos chucked out before the regulations prevented it, our by some dodgy operator (all honest and above board are they, the refuse site people? No pirates amongst them, as there are in every other industry)? Still, doubtless it’ll be tried.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  August 20, 2018

              Sad for you dumb Lefties:
              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12110125

              “And later down the track, Lawrence envisions they will also start mining landfills for plastic and turning that into concrete.”

            • robertguyton

               /  August 20, 2018

              Yay! Concrete! (we need more of that good stuff!).

            • robertguyton

               /  August 20, 2018

              “Lawrence envisions they will also start mining landfills for plastic”
              Lawrence envisions???
              So, Alan, your argument is based upon Lawrence’s envisioning.
              Dreamer.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  August 20, 2018

              We will if we are serious about building infrastructure.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  August 20, 2018

              Far from me to call a Greenie recycler a dreamer, Robert.

  15. Kitty Catkin

     /  August 20, 2018

    I am amazed that nobody has made the obvious riposte about the Green Party and the Brownshirts.

    • Gezza

       /  August 20, 2018

      Just needed the right kind of mind to think of it.

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  August 20, 2018

        One who knows history !

      • Gezza

         /  August 20, 2018

        I know a bit a bit of history but I still haven’t got a clue I’m afraid …