But John Key…

Whataboutism, like “what about John Key…” is common.

Urban dictionary:

When you deflect criticism by pointing out flaws in your opponent, specifically using the phrase “what about x?” This is an attempt to excuse you from changing you behavior by painting your opponent as a hypocrite.

An example came up yesterday in one of many defences of Jacinda Ardern pulling out of two weekend interviews, instead choosing to appear at a carefully stage managed rally in from of a hand picked audience.

@rorymccourt was taken to task for claiming Key didn’t do RNZ interviews. McCourt has since deleted his tweet, but in response to it:

Obviously sensitive to the criticism McCourt followed up.

Just to be clear: my original tweet was intended to make the point John Key pulled out of many RNZ interviews, not that he never appeared on RNZ. That would be ridiculous. Some have clearly taken it the wrong way. I don’t want to appear to spread mistruths so I’ve deleted it.

I found many instances where he pulled out of interviews over his 8 years. That was the comparison with the current PM I wanted to show. But the whole truth is important: and both of them did/do the bulk of their interviews.

Price:

As expected, you were lying in your follow up tweet too. You couldn’t cite three examples of John Key agreeing to, and then cancelling scheduled interviews. I’m disappointed with your dishonesty.

McCourt’s political background (from Young Gisborne voters to be a loud voice):

Mr McCourt has been involved with the Labour Party since high school. He was Tairawhiti Youth Council president in 2010, Victoria University of Wellington Students’ Association president in 2013 and New Zealand Union of Students’ Associations president last year.

He has also been on the Labour Party’s list ranking committee.

His might be a bit more careful what he says in the future.

59 Comments

  1. Blazer

     /  September 17, 2018

    Key was impossible to critique.
    He was always transparent,accountable,truthful and is a wonderful compassionate,caring human being ,who also donated a portion of his salary to charity.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  September 17, 2018

      He also had brains and ability, B.

      • Blazer

         /  September 17, 2018

        he knew where money came from and devoted himself to ingratiating himself in that world.

      • Corky

         /  September 17, 2018

        And never needed a coalition reset.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  September 17, 2018

          One needs more than that to succeed, Blazer; your envy is showing here. If that was all that was needed, there would be many more millionaires.

          • robertguyton

             /  September 17, 2018

            There are “many more millionaires” and Blazer’s correct: knowing where money comes from and ingratiating one’s self into that world are both characteristics of many millionaires, of which Key is one, and their path to “success”.

            • Corky

               /  September 17, 2018

              So why aren’t more socialists millionaires? They know the kaupapa of money, yet they still want mine. I don’t remember Key wanting my money for his power bill.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  September 17, 2018

              Key didn’t, but Winston is quite happy to get the power cheques!

            • Corky

               /  September 17, 2018

              Damn criminal in my opinion, High Flyer. I wonder if my money wound up at the racetrack?

            • Blazer

               /  September 17, 2018

              @Corky as a taxpayer Key bundled up your power assets and sold 49% of them off to foreigners=Wall St investors mainly.A shitty ,crappy deal if ever there was one.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  September 17, 2018

              You can ingratiate yourself as much as you like, but if you don’t have brains and ability you won’t succeed. Contrary to what you and Blazer seem to think, people like John Key don’t make money by being ingratiating. It takes brains and hard work. My stepfather didn’t make his money by sitting on his arse being ingratiating, he made it with hard work, determination and intelligence. He began life as one of nine children of a widowed mother in a workingclass area of Ulster and his first job was as a linesman. When he decided to go into business, he said that one day he’d have 100 men working for him. He probably had quite a few more than that at the end.

  2. Gezza

     /  September 17, 2018

    He might be a bit more careful what he says in the future.

    Meanwhile, 💵 🏌 💵 has moved on, & I care about wtf this lot’s doing.

    When 💵 🏌 💵 was running things I cared about what he & his lot were doing.

  3. robertguyton

     /  September 17, 2018

    Helen Clark ever get mentioned here? When the John Key-led Government was in power, did anyone ever mention Helen? Suppose not. Wouldn’t’ve, couldn’t’ve (otherwise, hypocrisy!)

    • I’m sorry. Next time I mention a Prime Minister I’ll mention all the previous Prime Ministers for balance.

      The point of this post is making false and/or sweeping statements about past Prime Ministers.

  4. robertguyton

     /  September 17, 2018

    I thought it was about whataboutism, the reason being, your post starts:
    But John Key…
    Whataboutism, like “what about John Key…” is common.

    Urban dictionary:

    “When you deflect criticism by pointing out flaws in your opponent, specifically using the phrase “what about x?” This is an attempt to excuse you from changing you behavior by painting your opponent as a hypocrite.”

    • PDB

       /  September 17, 2018

      The post makes the natural progression about common use of whataboutism in general to someone making false accusations about John Key through attempted use of whataboutism.

      Is everything so hard for you to comprehend?

      • robertguyton

         /  September 17, 2018

        Pete provided an example to illustrate the topic of the post, whataboutism.
        I have no problem with comprehension.

        • Gezza

           /  September 17, 2018

          Have you had any time yet to do that expert translation into Maori of that bit of Welly Hospital history you said “no problem” to me for the other day?

          • robertguyton

             /  September 17, 2018

            No, and I won’t/can’t – it’s too complex and in any case, having got two kupu wrong, one of them the simple “moturau”” for moutere – can’t believe I did that – I’m out of practice, my confidence has plummeted. I have a question for you, Gezza, if you don’t mind: why do you fire demeaning insults at me, such as “you’re a 10 year-old” or “you use crayons to write your comments” etc? I thought personal attacks were frowned upon and wonder how you justify, to yourself, using them.

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              Because I think your attacks on posters you disagree with are like really snide, snarky schoolboy kidstuff & they irritate me. They’re obviously meant to simply disrupt & derail discussions. I’m highly adaptable in my writing style. You’ve done it to me. I’m responding in kind in the way I’ve seen others do this – and they’re kids, aged 10.

            • robertguyton

               /  September 17, 2018

              It’s okay to personally-insult another poster then? By your reckoning?

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              Only you or someone else, when they do it. I’m excessively empathic. I try to show someone how what they are doing feels or what it does when they do it & are blissfully unaware they’re doing it. Mostly I just say what I think & play a straight ball.

              I scrap with Al because I know the bugger’s grinning like a cheshire cat & it’s a game with us. I’ve met the man & spent a lot of time with him.,

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  September 17, 2018

              Sir Gerald abuses me in the nicest possible way. So I treat him kindly, Robert.

            • robertguyton

               /  September 17, 2018

              Yes, I understand your empathetic thing, Gezza and that you find my style “irritating”, but I can’t see why you think that justifies personal insults. If I was using them, initiating them at least, then fire away, but I’m not. You may disagree, in which case please copy/paste some examples. I can find many instances where you’ve begun a volley, so it shouldn’t be hard for you to find instances where I’ve insulted an individual. Thanks. Had it occurred to you that I too find comments from some posters here to be, “really snide, snarky schoolboy kidstuff & they irritate me”? Have I called them “idiots” or “smart-arses” as a result? ” “What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.” – hat-tip, Kitty.

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              Had it occurred to you that I too find comments from some posters here to be, “really snide, snarky schoolboy kidstuff & they irritate me”?
              I can see there are some posters who know how to really push your buttons but they don’t irritate me like you do for some reason & I think it’s just that they’re more into a witty, adult style of sarcasm. Except for one, tweeter maybe, & even he can be genuinely witty sometimes.

              You get a lot of leeway here, we all do, to be robust & to respond in kind and even to attack the blogmeister’s integrity with stuff that if you said it to other blogmeisters you’d get the boot with remarks about festering penises & suchlike before morning tea time.

              Don’t do that.

              Have I called them “idiots” or “smart-arses” as a result?

              I don’t know. I don’t look to others for inspiration as to the words to use to describe someone saying deliberately silly OTT things that just take up space, lashing out in defence of their tribe.

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              PS: Nobody’s perfect robert. Not even me. Although my Mrs thought so because one of her favourite endrearing remarks to me was : Oh yes, & you’re Mr Perfect, aren’t you?

            • robertguyton

               /  September 17, 2018

              After wading through all that, Gezza, I can only conclude that you do believe that delivering personal insults is okay, if the target irritates you. My comments irritate you because they aren’t witty and the sarcasm isn’t “adult” as that of other posters here. Am I getting this pretty much right? I’m assuming though, that you wouldn’t condone my using personal insults aimed at anyone here – correct me if I’m wrong.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  September 17, 2018

              Inults need to be pertinent, original and witty. Then they spice up debate.

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              That is correct. But if someone says something really idiotic or childish to me I’ll tell them they’re being an idiot or childish. That’s not an insult. I go on what people write. I don’t try to pretend to read minds & tell other people what they really mean either, & no one should try to read mine & do the same. So sarcasm along those lines is wasted on me. I think we’re done here on this. I am anyway. You asked me reasonable questions & I’ve given you honest answers, I’d rather have a look around & see if anyone has posted any interesting I haven’t thought about in relation to the topic. I mostly skim over long shit fights that aren’t interesting & that I’ve not got sucked into.

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              *anything interesting (sorry)

            • robertguyton

               /  September 17, 2018

              This wasn’t a shit-fight, Gezza. I politely asked you to explain something.

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              Sorry, that was just a bit of general info about me.

              I know this was not a shit fight & I have politely & honestly answered your questions. I try to follow internally consistent rules. We are both sensitive I can see that but we both have plenty of testosterone & that sometimes kicks in more strongly & instantly than we might realise or admit.

            • robertguyton

               /  September 17, 2018

              Well, Gezza, I now know that whenever I’m applying below-gazza-standard wit or sarcasm to another poster’s comments, you’ll likely get irritated and involve yourself in the discussion by calling me names, but that’s okay, because you’re empathetic and I made you do it.
              I, in my childish way, won’t do that. I’ll save my insult-trading to times where I’ve already received one. Put-downs are often funny; I liked the crayon slight, though it’s hardly original, and thought my “finger-painting” reposts was funny also, though it drew no laughs from this dour lot. Must be my lack of “witty, adult style of sarcasm”. Perhaps in a few years time, I’ll have mastered the art, as others here, yourself included, have. Pink David’s in the team, no doubt. His “I thought The Greens had banned horses” hilarious beyond anything I could ever conceive of! That guy!!!

            • robertguyton

               /  September 17, 2018

              riposte

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              It’s good that we’ve had this little chat then. Everything seems to have worked out well in the end. ❤️

            • robertguyton

               /  September 17, 2018

              Hey, that must be some of that “adult sarcasm” you alerted me to! Thanks, Gezza! I’m a’lernin!

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              Hey, that must be some of that “adult sarcasm” you alerted me to! Thanks, Gezza! I’m a’lernin!

              No – you’re not learning about me robert. You’re projecting.

              I had a sarcastic Latin teacher who used sarcasm as his control weapon and he encouraged the nastier component of the class to mercilessly verbally and phyiscally bully the lonely slow short fat kid in our class for years. I simply wasn’t big enuf to defend him from the bigger thugs and they were a gang. I agonised over it: it really tore me up – I wanted to smash their faces in and I couldn’t. I loathe sarcasm – probably as a result.

              I do like to use a little light irony from time to time, and I hope most people get that.

              But I do notice that people who are chronically sarcastic interpret all sorts of responses from me and others as sarcasm because that’s how they are & the distinction between irony, sarcasm, and something straightforwardly honest but opposing a view of theirs is sarcastic.

              That’s all.

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              Sorry last bit was garbled
              *and something straightforwardly honest but opposing a view of theirs is lost on them and they see it as sarcastic.

        • PDB

           /  September 17, 2018

          Robert: “I have no problem with comprehension.”

          In this case I think you do. PG makes no judgement about whataboutism (good or bad), and whataboutism is only used as the opening ‘hook’ of the post. If anything the post is about false equivalence.

          • robertguyton

             /  September 17, 2018

            Splitting hairs, PDB. We don’t agree about what the main point of Pete’s post is; so what?

            • PDB

               /  September 17, 2018

              You must do Robert considering you felt the need to initially bring it up at the very top of this discussion.

      • Blazer

         /  September 17, 2018

        ‘ Labour did it too’ was National policy.

        • Gezza

           /  September 17, 2018

          Every party practising hyporisy like professionals is finely tuned to pull out every example of the other party having done it too.

  5. Zedd

     /  September 17, 2018

    John WHO ??

    oh you mean; ‘Sir Ponytail puller’ :/ 😀

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  September 17, 2018

      Yep, that’s the guy. The one who stole the female vote from Labour.

      • robertguyton

         /  September 17, 2018

        “Yep, that’s the guy. The one who stole the female vote from Labour” – then lost it, due to…hair-pulling.

        • Zedd

           /  September 17, 2018

          I think the FAILED Flag Ref. was not one of his shining moments either 😀

          He perhaps forgot it was supposed to be a ‘new flag’ for Aotearoa/NZ.. Not for ‘Planet Key’ ?????

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  September 17, 2018

          Strangely, no, Robert. He maintained remarkably consistent support through his three terms. I can only presume quite a few women would have enjoyed his attention.

          • Zedd

             /  September 17, 2018

            what about; all the younger ones with long ponytails.. like a certain Ms Ardern ?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  September 17, 2018

              Dunno, Zedd. Does she give you itchy fingers?

            • Zedd

               /  September 17, 2018

              @AW

              pls explain ????? :/ :/

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  September 17, 2018

              Really? You obviously noticed the pony tail so did you want to pull it? Otherwise, what on earth did you mean?

            • Gezza

               /  September 17, 2018

              My recollection is that Key did it – it was an overgrown schoolboy thing that was inaspropriate, he got publicly pilloried for it here & overseas & he stopped it because after that he had to.

            • Zedd

               /  September 17, 2018

              Im just surprised.. anyone still takes ‘Sir John’ seriously.. anymore ?
              what a JokeR 😀

              btw; old saying: ‘those who Forget the Mistakes of the past…..’

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  September 17, 2018

              Do you just post random “thoughts”, Z? Forgive my intrusion and for mistakingly taking you and Robert seriously.

            • Zedd

               /  September 17, 2018

              ‘Do you just post random “thoughts”, Z? Forgive my intrusion and for mistakingly taking you and Robert seriously.’ sez AW

              I just sez it, as I sez it AW… one thing I do know, the prosperity of the human race does not rely upon the greediest top 10%.. even if some ignorant types do believe that.

              Form one planet.. one race, the Human Race.. we are all interconnected, even if some one-eyed selfish pricks cant see it ! :/

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  September 17, 2018

              That’s a clear “yes” then.

          • oops typo: ‘I just sez it, as I SEEZ it…’