Using te reo is good, unless someone is offended

Last month during Māori language week there was widespread encouragement of increasing the use of te reo, but it seems that some want to limit it’s use to things they find acceptable.

Lizzie Marvelly (15 September): The language of the land is being spoken

We are in the middle of another Māori renaissance at the moment. Te reo classes are jam-packed, with long waiting lists for those hoping to jump aboard the language waka. The language of the land is being spoken more and more on the airwaves. Macron use is becoming increasingly common in major publications. It’s an exciting time for people who love Te Ao Māori. Kōrengarenga ana te whatumanawa i te manahau. My heart is overflowing with joy.

This week – this special, sacred week; a celebration of a language that has arisen from the ashes – has been full of reminders of the importance of our reo fight. I have loved seeing the many innovations unveiled to encourage use of the reo.

There’s no doubt that the recent history of te reo Māori has been a difficult one, but what has struck me most this week is the excitement of thousands of New Zealanders trying out new te reo words for the first time. In years to come, I like to imagine a future in which te reo Māori is spoken by most New Zealanders, having been taught at school. There is no downside. Bilingualism is great for your brain, te reo is fun to learn, and understanding Te Ao Māori strengthens our cultural partnership.

The future is Māori. Haumi ē! Hui ē! Tāiki ē!

But there appears to be a but.

In the time since, in the replies to that tweet, I’ve been accused of being “outraged”, told to lighten up, told that I was doing a disservice to te reo Māori, been called a “perpetually outraged radical feminist who hates men esp white men”…

old to “get off [my] fucking high horse”, told to get a life, called a boring snowflake etc. etc.

The response was fascinating. How do you go from someone pointing out that a phrase seems surprising and out of place, to instant hysteria? What happens in people’s minds to make them respond so vehemently?

The accusations around te reo were the most frustrating. Just because a te reo word is in a phrase doesn’t nullify the implications of the phrase as a whole. The phrase “less hui, more do-ey” plays into negative stereotypes about Māori. It has always had negative connotations.

So anything that someone thinks has negative connotations should not be said? Haven’t Māori used the term themselves?

And I’m aware that it was aimed at the Government, rather than at Māori, but it uses a racial stereotype to derive its meaning. So I was surprised to see it in that article, especially when Air NZ has done some good stuff to support te ao Māori.

I don’t think it uses a racial stereotype to derive it’s meaning. The meaning goes back a long way. It is simply a variation on the term ‘less talk, more action’ with a Māori flavour.

Hui are an important means of Māori consultation and discussion, but like any meetings, especially series of meetings, they can become dominated with talk at the expense of taking meaningful action.

Talking things over is usually a good thing, but interminably talking can be a form of procrastination.

Duff was being critical of Māori inaction.

But they look like white men so shouldn’t have joined this korero.

But I don’t think Deborah Coddington is Māori.

Leonie Hayden:

I’ve found it amusing in the past when I first heard it used (by Māori) but I don’t love it when it’s used by non-Māori, especially when you can tell it’s the only time they use the word ‘hui’.

Non-Māori teo users are discouraged, and could well be discouraged from using te reo if there is tolo much preciousness over how it is used.

Leonie Pihama:

Even the use by our own I find insulting. It is based on the hegemonic idea that talking, giving depth reflection and resolving ways of doing things is not “doing anything”.

I don’t think it is based on that at all. It doesn’t imply action without talking, without reflecting, without trying to resolve things through discussion. All it suggests is that sometimes there can be too much talk and not enough action. Māori are not immune from that, and they shouldn’t be immune from criticism if they don’t take enough action after talking things through.

I joined the twitter discussion –  If you want a living language, especially co-existing with another language, there will always be the chance that people will use it in ways we may not like. There’s a lot of English usage I’m not fussed on. But trying to dictate usage, especially based on race, seems crazy to me.

It also moved to a discussion on pronunciation.

More from Wairangi Jones:

Dialect variances don’t stack up as an argument. Regardless of dialect Te Reo has been mispronounced. The root cause of mispronounced Te Reo is racism because of colonisation, something the English language has never experienced.

The English language was and is not mispronounced in NZ. Te Reo is. Colonization is the cause.

English is pronounced differently eg Sth Africa and Oz like Te Reo dialects. I am talking about NZ and nowhere else. English pronunciation with the NZ twang is normal. Mispronunciation of Te Reo isn’t.

This is nonsense. there are quite a variety of English pronunciations in New Zealand. There is no normal ‘NZ twang’ – there are regional and racial variations her, and English pronunciation here has kept evolving for two centuries, as it has elsewhere. There has been a distinct Māori  on local pronunciation of English. That’s what happens with language.

If people like Marvelly and Jones try to insist that no te reo that may offend someone be used by non-Māori , and if they demand purity of pronunciation, they will deter people from using te reo and even from using Māori words.

If New Zealand had not been colonised, if there had been no foreign language exposure at all, if UK and US and Australian television had never been seen here, then Māori language spoken now would have evolved from how it was spoken 200 years ago. It is likely regional dialects would have become more pronounced. That’s what happens with languages.

Demanding purity now is likely to deter wider use.

Getting precious over the use of Māori words by anyone deemed not Māori  enough to use them is likely to deter wider use.

I don’t think Lizzie Marvelly, who seems to prefer her Māori  side and forgets like most she also has ‘coloniser’ ancestry, has not been condemned for using a non-pure non-Māori name. Lizzie as opposed to Irihāpeti is not exactly kātuarehe, but who cares?

I think use of te reo should be encouraged, and those who integrate Māori  words into English phrases should not be ostracised.

Māori will struggle to be a living language let alone widely used if it is stifled through preciousness and demanded perfection.

 

131 Comments

  1. Ray

     /  October 8, 2018

    “The English language was and is not mispronounced in NZ.”
    Oh really, I give you the word beloved by sports people and pollies “learnings”
    Or “you fullers” or “eh boy”.

    • Gezza

       /  October 8, 2018

      Well, the US has probably pumped more new words phrases into the English language than any country – for pollies the new word for politicians, congresspersons and senators sweeping the world seems to be “lawmakers”.

  2. robertguyton

     /  October 8, 2018

    I always thought the expression was, “all hooey, no dooey”, hooey meaning :
    “hooey
    nounINFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
    nonsense.
    “the emphasis on family is pretentious hooey”

    • Gezza

       /  October 8, 2018

      Nope – the phrase is “less hui, more doey”. It’s a good one. Jonesy uses it. It’s been around now for yonks. My kuia friend uses it. In fact I’d mostly heard it from Maori. Pakeha are starting to pick it up & use it too. I think it’s great, I like it, when it’s used in the context that one usually hears it – which is “the time for more korero is over: let’s just get feckin get on with doing it !

      This is all from Lizzie Marvelly. I’ve already switched off.

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  October 8, 2018

        All hui and no do-ey, I think was the original. It was used of a particular situation that I forget now, but is used generally now as an alternative to ‘all talk and no do.’ ‘Hooey’ makes little sense in this context.

        It’s a Kiwi phrase and it’s probably here to stay despite nitpickers reading all sorts of meaning and insults into it. It’s used now of any occasion where people talk and talk and do nothing.LM is a very precious wee princess with not enough to think about.

        When I hear ‘all talk and no do’ I don’t take it to be a stereotyped insult to Pakehas.

  3. “The English language was and is not mispronounced in NZ”

    The English language was and is mispronounced, mis-spelled, misused and magnificently, meaningfully mangled in every way imaginable in every country on the planet, as well as every town, county, village, street and pub in England, and no-one bats an eyelid. That is one of the reasons it is so successful: it is allowed to evolve and serve its users, and no-one gets defensively precious about it.

    The way to kill a language stone dead is to tout it as more important than the people it is meant to serve. The way to keep it alive is with more do-ey and less hui.

    • PartisanZ

       /  October 8, 2018

      @thesailor – “The way to kill a language stone dead is to tout it as more important than the people it is meant to serve.”

      This topic is a maze of hastily prepared blind alleys … I know it’s dark but can you feel the solid impassable wall at the end of this one?

      The way to nourish and sustain a living language is to tout it as being very important to the people it serves.

      Thanks Lizzie Marvelly for doing so.

  4. Corky

     /  October 8, 2018

    As far as I’m concerned this learning of Maori language is all crap. Currently it is a cool accessory to have. However, fashions change, and passions cool.

    I could take these groovy dudes to places that would cure them of Maori culture forever.

    For myself, I have proven time and again, Hui not doey is the trademark of Maoridom. I don’t need anyone to tell me different. When it comes time for spade work about half a days sweat is where it ends for many Maori.

    Country Calendar and Coast Watch programmes gives us a small window into what I mean.. On one hand Maori tell us they are guardians of the sea; on the other Coast Watch shows Maori pillaging Kaimoana in an unsustainable way for profit.

    Then we see farmers on Country Calendar preserving and planting native bush. Don’t hear of many Maori initiatives to do like wise..do you?

    So what has this to do with Te Reo? Well, nothing really. That’s my point. The end product is nothing.

  5. robertguyton

     /  October 8, 2018

    “no-one bats an eyelid”
    Eyelids bat like crazy when Simon mangles his and our beloved English.

    • Gezza

       /  October 8, 2018

      Jesus Christ. Have you actually listened to Jacinda? She doesn’t even recognise the letter t. She thinks it’s a d.

      • Gezza

         /  October 8, 2018

        Here’s a representative sample of Jacinda English:

        UNDERSTANDING YAW PRY MINISDA

        Anythink – anything
        Oppichoonidy – opportunity
        Pryorridees – priorities
        Povidy – poverty
        Kwolidy – quality
        Risponsibilidy – responsibility
        Suppording – supporting
        Sumpthink- something
        Yewdilize – utilise
        Woarda – water
        Wycaddo – Waikato
        – – – – – – – – –

        Simon pronounces his “i’s” and “why’s” as oys and woys. I think beyond that his English is certainly no worse than hers and possibly akshilly bedda.

        • robertguyton

           /  October 8, 2018

          Gezza – whaddaboutism, from you?
          Akshully, I don’t hear either of them very often at all, not having a television set glowering at me from the corner of my lounge. I read about the linguistic failings of various politicians here, so am aware that there is a range of competence amongst our Elected Ones. In any case, I like language when it’s mangled – it’s interesting and funny – the only mashing I don’t like is that which issues from the mouths of drunkard – that annoys me. Mind you, Dave Allen used it to good effect, as did Dean “Everybody loves somebody sometime” Martin.

          • Gezza

             /  October 8, 2018

            Kiwinglish will be nearly unintelligible to people from overseas eventually, I suspect.

      • Blazer

         /  October 8, 2018

        try AB coach Hansen….cringeworthy,nasal,dry twang.

        • Gezza

           /  October 8, 2018

          Yeah – but at least he only says about 6 sentences, & they’re all short, and they’re often pretty much the same ones – & then it’s over 😀

          • Gezza

             /  October 8, 2018

            Come to think of it: I was thinking about Griz, and a few others. I think there is actually a language one might call Rugby English. It consists of a limited number of drawled words and a short selection of repeated phrases & is a language subset many people just automatically lapse into when talking about rugger.

  6. Patzcuaro

     /  October 8, 2018

    All spoken languages are evolving especially English which is spoken by different people in different places. Latin on the other hand hasn’t change for centuries.

  7. Zedd

     /  October 8, 2018

    Whilst it is is usually called ‘Te Reo Maori’.. IF all folks in Aotearoa/NZ are to claim it & learn it, as the language of this land, then perhaps we should call it ‘Te Reo (o tenei whenua) Aotearoa’

    Ive even heard some ‘expert speakers’ say (paraphrased) ‘it is better to try it & make mistakes.. than not try, for fear of criticism’

    “Ka pai korero ki a koutou katoa” 🙂

    • Gezza

       /  October 8, 2018

      I call it Te Reo Maori. Te Reo just means the language, so I don’t use that phrase.

      • robertguyton

         /  October 8, 2018

        “Te Reo” would only ever refer to Maori, wouldn’t it, being nga kupu Maori.

    • robertguyton

       /  October 8, 2018

      I like that comment of Zedd’s. Chuck it all in there, I reckon; mix words from all over and enjoy our own “Esperanto” of sorts; the more the merrier, I reckon and if someone doesn’t like it, they can do a Kitty and cling to “Proper”, keep their plum intact, raise the tip of their nose and revel in their irritation.

      • Zedd

         /  October 8, 2018

        since the time of the treaty.. Te Reo has been changed to include words & ideas from the cultures that came to Aotearoa/NZ. It is therefore no longer the ‘pure language’ it perhaps once was, but a hybrid version.

        Even in ‘Te Tiriti’ they added the word ‘Kawanatanga’ which was a ‘maori-ised’ version of Governorship, because the translators (from English) could not find a word in the existing lexicon to use. Rangatiratanga means Chieftainship which appear to ‘high in status’. They wanted a word subordinate to ‘Kuini Wikitoria’

        This has continued to the modern version. which includes many words, that are English or other.. that were made to sound ‘maori’.

    • Gezza

       /  October 8, 2018

      Ive even heard some ‘expert speakers’ say (paraphrased) ‘it is better to try it & make mistakes.. than not try, for fear of criticism’

      it’s no different from English. There are Maori who say that, and Maori who slam you for mispronouncing it (I rarely mispronounce it – learn the vowels and that there are no syllables that are stressed and you’ve pretty much sussed the pronunciation. Thank you Latin for that much at least).

      I can’t complain that some Maori hate hearing Te Reo Maori mispronounced – I hate hearing English mangled.

      • robertguyton

         /  October 8, 2018

        Otautau is a nearby town, know locally and almost forever as “a – tow(n) – tow(n)”. Say oar-toe-toe and the stares are blank.

        • Gezza

           /  October 8, 2018

          Maybe so, but I’d know it if I spotted it on a road sign or a map. I don’t want to speak for South Islanders but up our way in Te Ika the generation of Pakeha who call Paraparaumu Paraparam are dying out.

      • PartisanZ

         /  October 8, 2018

        Luxon evidently has not “made a mistake” though eh Gezza?

        • Gezza

           /  October 8, 2018

          I dunno, I don’t know if he pronounced it hooey or hwee or hui. I don’t have any problem with what he said. Some wankers might?

          • PartisanZ

             /  October 8, 2018

            Really the topic is about his intent in using the whole phrase Gezza … nothing to do with pronunciation of “hui”… though some wankers don’t seem to recognize this and have more-or-less completely derailed it …

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              I think use of te reo should be encouraged, and those who integrate Māori words into English phrases should not be ostracised.

              Māori will struggle to be a living language let alone widely used if it is stifled through preciousness and demanded perfection.

              That’s the point of the post – and although it has morphed here into a discussion of pronunication – this issue are closely related because getting hammered for mispronouncing it deters some people from giving it a go.

              As for derailing, if I were you I’d give you an award for your facility at turning just about anything into a rant about colonialism and the evils of capitalism.

            • Pickled Possum

               /  October 8, 2018

              Gezza said…
              “I dunno, I don’t know if he pronounced it hooey or hwee or hui. I don’t have any problem with what he said. Some wankers might?”

              Well, Gez I can honestly say I don’t wank,
              and I do have a problem with the mantra Less Hui More Doee
              It alludes to lots of meetings and nothing gets done.

              When some Maori say it to each other it is an acknowledgement of a ‘long process’ like Raupatu where some hapu iwi have been seeking redress for dishonestly confiscated lands for 50+years.

              That man Luxton meant the phrase for the government.

              Incorporating English and Maori is ok in my book
              as long as it is not laced with bigotry.

              Actually, IMHO people just want to pile into Marvelly for the mere reason she is a woman, lesbian, Maori, Investigative journo, gawjuss looking (according to some menfolk), Jez take your pick.
              Is she a rightie or a leftie? Does it matter?
              I think I will have to google her now.

              She Also has the power of the pen.
              To say this woman has nothing of relevance to say says a lot about the sayee or is that the sayer.
              Just a pack of twitter twits getting outraged and having their say.
              And that’s the news of the day.

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              @Possum
              Well, Gez…I do have a problem with the mantra Less Hui More Doee
              It alludes to lots of meetings and nothing gets done.

              When some Maori say it to each other it is an acknowledgement of a ‘long process’ like Raupatu where some hapu iwi have been seeking redress for dishonestly confiscated lands for 50+years.
              Yes I can well imagine it being used in that context if they are referring to meetings with the government – and it probably applies to the government negotiators themselves if they are trying to get some agreement on who wants what.

              But it’s also quite commonly used in less formal settings and in a jocular fashion as well without there being any intention to denigrate the more formal assemblies like hui taumata, hui-atau or hui taurima for example.

              Incorporating English and Maori is ok in my book
              as long as it is not laced with bigotry.

              I see no evidence that Luxton did.

              Actually, IMHO people just want to pile into Marvelly for the mere reason she is a woman, lesbian, Maori, Investigative journo, gawjuss looking (according to some menfolk), Jez take your pick.
              Is she a rightie or a leftie? Does it matter?

              Probably are a few haters but I think some people just pile into her when she’s offended them for whatever particular reason. I think she quite likes being provocative and generalises which, as you know can piss people off. It’s all good with me. I’ve mostly switched off from her because she’s got it in for older CIS-genedered hetero white men and I am one. Other stuff she’s written that I’ve read I’ve had no issue with but she’s not a “must-read” for me.

              To say this woman has nothing of relevance to say says a lot about the sayee or is that the sayer. Just a pack of twitter twits getting outraged and having their say.
              Well, exactly. She started all this with a tweet for that purpose I think. So everybody that likes to get outraged on twitter about such matters is probably happy.

  8. Kabull

     /  October 8, 2018

    These people would have followed a very different path had the French succeeded in annexing New Zealand before the British. It was a close-run thing, and the threat of it happening was one of the factors in reaching an agreement with the native inhabitants in 1840.
    And as for claims that “Te Reo is racism because of colonisation, something the English language has never experienced.” – how great was the impact on the English language of the Norman ‘colonisation’ of Britain – or Norse colonisation of the east of England? Or the Roman occupation? Or, today, the ‘colonisation’ from the Sub Continent, central Europe, the Baltic states – even the Caribbean? All those migrant or invasive waves had a significant impact on the culture and language of the English. So, for those who think the Maori language is sacrosanct and something that must be foisted on us without question or alteration – lift your eyes beyond your small corner of the world (the south Pacific) and recognise how mankind has constantly moved and shifted across thousands of years. Do you know, for example, that the Iberian Peninsular was occupied by the Moors (Muslims) for around 700 years? I bet they didn’t worry about whether native language and culture was protected.
    Those pushing for greater use of Maori and the increased adoption of Maori culture in wider society need to acknowledge that any society is going to be influenced by the influx of new peoples from other places – whether by invasion or immigration. It is simply a question of mass – a small native population is inevitably going to be swamped by the language and culture of those who came later. And that is not ‘colonisation’. The native language and culture must of necessity adapt and develop to accommodate those immigrants. Unless they would rather the creation of American-style native reservations where they can live in isolated serenity away from the ‘real world’.
    I do not want to in any way offend by my comments but I do struggle to accept the single-minded drive to push us – New Zealanders of all origins – into a model that is inherently artificial. I’m not suggesting that the Maori language or culture is artificial – far from it; but what is artificial is the attempt to deny the inexorable ebb and flow of linguistic and cultural norms as a result of immigration.

    • Blazer

       /  October 8, 2018

      nice post…Latin was foistered upon students for many years in NZ.

    • Gezza

       /  October 8, 2018

      One thing English is good at is importing words and phrases from other languages and that will happen with Maori words too. It’s not something that will stop because English is a continually evolving language. You can still find words in dictionaries that are identified as archaic English no longer in common usage.

    • PartisanZ

       /  October 8, 2018

      @kabull – ” It is simply a question of mass – a small native population is inevitably going to be swamped by the language and culture of those who came later. And that is not ‘colonisation’.”

      We obviously don’t know who you are Kabull, but it’s interesting you use two ‘l’s in your avatar name, as in “bull” … The city of Kabul being spelled with only one ‘l’ …

      What you have described above is PRECISELY what colonisation is.

      “The native language and culture must of necessity adapt and develop to accommodate those immigrants.”

      This is PRECISELY what Maori have done with Te Reo, and they are often criticized for it.

      “Unless they would rather the creation of American-style native reservations where they can live in isolated serenity away from the ‘real world’.”

      As though Native Americans “requested” they be confined on reservations …? And as though they live there in isolated serenity …?

      Yep … I’ll go with BULL …

  9. david in aus

     /  October 8, 2018

    Set up NZ ‘values’ provision and eventually, a Left-wing government will make it compulsory to be proficient in Maori to procure a government job. This government is putting out the feelers as we speak.

    Marvelly thinks there are only nice words in Maori. The Maori word for Fart is actually translated to the fragrance of rose. Language is not much use if you can’t use it for satire and mockery. Otherwise, it is a dead language, like Latin; to be only used in ceremonies.

    • robertguyton

       /  October 8, 2018

      “The Maori word for Fart is actually translated to the fragrance of rose.”
      Unlikely. There were no roses here prior to European settlement and there sure as eggs would have been farts!

      • David in aus

         /  October 8, 2018

        Obviously a joke. A riff on marvelly’s outrage on the negative use of the word hui.

  10. david in aus

     /  October 8, 2018

    “I don’t think Lizzie Marvelly, who seems to prefer her Māori side and forgets like most she also has ‘coloniser’ ancestry, has not been condemned for using a non-pure non-Māori name.”

    This something is very common these days. When being seen as Maori was negative, many would distance themselves. These days, there is a social prestige of identifying oneself in Victimhood.
    The ultimate labels would be Maori, poor and transgender; then you can bask in your virtuous victimhood amongst your Left-wing friends. Acknowledging that you have the genetic, cultural inheritance of the colonial ‘oppressors’ would undercut this image.

    Marvelly has written an article on her bisexuality. What was the purpose of that? Perhaps,
    she was trying to earn Virtue Credits.

  11. Rickmann

     /  October 8, 2018

    Would someone please explain why you pay so much attention to Lizzie Marvelly ? I know she is a lesbian, which is very fashionable in the MSM, and have only just discovered that she is ‘Maori” and so is, like Anika Moa, thrice blessed, but how many people in NZ actually read her column apart from Pete George. Check out the circulation figures for the NZ Herald.

    • PartisanZ

       /  October 8, 2018

      She seems to be the one who has publicly questioned Luxon’s intent in using the phrase “less hui, more doo-ey” …

      And, as you’ve pointed out, she walks around labelled in multiple Rightie targets …

      I’d like to know why anyone pays so much attention to Luxon?

    • Blazer

       /  October 8, 2018

      she has a nice singing voice.

  12. PartisanZ

     /  October 8, 2018

    @Lizzie – “What happens in people’s minds to make them respond so vehemently?”

    There’s the rub!

    @PG – “I think use of te reo should be encouraged, and those who integrate Māori words into English phrases should not be ostracized.”

    I’m fairly confident Luxon won’t feel ostracized … He doesn’t look the type to me …

    This is about intent.

    I think use of te reo should be encouraged and the language respected – within reason – and those who purposely denigrate Māori words and by association Maori culture in English phrases – especially attention-grabbing in the media – should be called out for doing so.

    The comments on this topic demonstrate without doubt who those people and their supporters are. There is evidently a kind of Right-Left divide on this subject.

    • Gezza

       /  October 8, 2018

      Yeah, I dunno. Most the comments I see above I wouldn’t characterise the way you have. Just opinions on the issue raised in the post to me. Apart from Corky, but he’s a chronic Maori basher so I just ignore that sort of stuff becoz I’m not.

      What’s your opinion on whether English words for objects or things like, I dunno, car, areoplane, computer, telephone, should have Maori words translierated – i.e. invented, & used when speaking Maori – instead of just the English word being used when speaking Maori?

      • PartisanZ

         /  October 8, 2018

        Allow me to quote KaBULL – “The native language and culture must of necessity adapt and develop to accommodate those immigrants.”

        Or shall we fix Maori language and culture at 6 Feb 1840?

        Or perhaps earlier, before our Christianity had saved them from …

        • Gezza

           /  October 8, 2018

          shall we fix Maori language and culture at 6 Feb 1840?
          That’s up to Maori. I don’t think they should.

          Or perhaps earlier, before our Christianity had saved them from …
          Well, carry on with that sentence & let’s see exactly what you think it saved them from, if you like.

          And on my question about Maori transliterations, the reason I ask is because I gather that’s a matter of some debate within Maoridom and with the Maori Language Commission – should they invent words or not. I haven’t made up my mind on it – I’ll take it you think it’s a good idea.

          • PartisanZ

             /  October 8, 2018

            I think whatever te tangata decide is fine. Inventing words and transliterations would be a difficult thing to legislate against IMHO.

            English doesn’t need to transliterate Maori words … We have the monopoly on vocabulary I guess …?

            But if many people think about it, numerous Maori words remain as place names and many more have been incorporated into their parochial NZ English … We’ve tutu’d with it quite a bit … Tane and Wahine alike …

            Gotta go and have a kai …

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              That’s why I haven’t made my mind up about it PZ. English might even have the most extensive vocabulary of any language, I’ve never checked. But it’s probably because it’s evolved from so many different “tribes” over the centuries and it happily accommodates new words – often pronouncing them slightly differently. It does pretty well with a 26 letter alphabet and no accent marks – although spellings could do with an overhaul.

              So it happily accommodates words like korero, hui, and kia ora, and whanau. It’s pointless to suggest as Lizzie seems to have done that it shouldn’t.

              But it also to me means there’s an argument that Maori speakers could do the same and still have a living language without having to transliterate words.

              Dad told me in the Western Desert when they were fighting with the Maori Battalion their soldiers would be chatting away in Maori & would suddenly point to the sky and yell “aeroplane” – which was bloody helpful if it was a Jerry or Eyetie one and they needed to get down.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              @Gezza – “It’s pointless to suggest as Lizzie seems to have done that it shouldn’t.”

              Lizzie wasn’t suggesting English shouldn’t accommodate Te Reo words.

              She was questioning Luxon’s intent at using the Te Reo word “hui” in the way he did …

              And then she asked, “What happens in people’s minds to make them respond so vehemently?”, quite appropriately in my view after the ‘backlash’ …

              I’m prepared to offer an opinion on that, outlandish though it may seem to some: By its association with Maori culture, Te Reo threatens some people’s entire world-view and their commitment to maintaining the status-quo, be it conscious, subconscious or unconscious …

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              From what I can see the criticism is about Lizzie being offended about nothing. From that you have extrapolated all your usuals with little justification in this case that I can see..

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              That would be true if it was “nothing” … but it’s not … It offends me too and clearly numerous others …

              The justification is the backlash she received from her polite question: “What’s going on?”

              If this was a firing range … which it kind of is … Lizzie would be one of the chosen targets today …

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              If Lizzie wasn’t generating backlash she wouldn’t think life was worth living, imo. Nobody would pay her any attention. By all means be offended, you’ve offended heaps of folk here today – but if someone thinks being told they’re making a storm in a teacup and a mountain out of a molehill over something utterly ridiculous, let them be offended & give them the 2018 Most Pointlessly Offended Cup.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              Okay, so now you’ve managed to say … and in order to do so judge … that what was formerly “nothing” is now “something utterly ridiculous” …

              It’s plainly evident that Lizzie, Sarah, Leonie, Leonie, Wairangi and myself don’t think it’s either of those things …

              No-one’s actually said to me that I’ve offended them on here today. I wish they would. Happy to hear it. Happy to respond … like “Grow up” … and “Take a concrete pill” …

              Have I offended you Gezza? I mean … after you all but called me a wanker …

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              Nup. You’re just being you and I’m just being me.

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              after you all but called me a wanker …

              Well spotted. I didn’t … but some people might have thought I did. I’m experimenting with Peterstalk.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              Yeah … “I didn’t push you off the building … You just happened to be near the edge when I nudged you by accident … “

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              Not quite the same thing but happy to let it go at that. He’s very clever with how he uses words. The baubles one was a classic masterpiece where the meaning people took from it depended on what they thought he must mean.

      • robertguyton

         /  October 8, 2018

        If I might offer my opinion, Gezza: it’s a matter of integrity. Transliteration take difficult to say sounds and “soften” them for tongues that a used to forming those sounds. in earlier times, ice-cream was hard to pronounce for tongues that were trained in different vowel sounds and words ending in a vowel, hence “aihikirimi”. Rorohiko, otoh, for computer took brain and electricity and combined them to describe a new entrant to the lexicon. I like all that engineering of language and have now trouble enjoying all ways.

        • PartisanZ

           /  October 8, 2018

          Ae and Aye …

        • robertguyton

           /  October 8, 2018

          No trouble, I have no trouble. Kahore he raruraru.

        • Gezza

           /  October 8, 2018

          Yeah, I can go along with that robert. Preserves the integrity of the language if you go for “as close as” phonetic sounds & drop letters of the English alphabet & just work with the more limited number in Maori language. I think that’s probably the way modern Maori is going to go.I think I prefer transliteration to the idea of calling everything that people might travel in some kind of canoe.

          • robertguyton

             /  October 8, 2018

            I really like the use of wake to express situations where a vessel of some sort is involved: wakahuia being a lovely, poetic example. I love the “family-tree” structure of the reo Maori – have you thought about/seen explanations of “mokopuna” – it’s a lovely example of a word from a language that builds on the bricks of previous concepts, using poetry as its mortar.

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              Well, I suppose there’s no reason to object to both. We can use words like vehicle to describe various types of automobile and planes (aerial vehicle) we also have other names for. I think it’s quite poetic if its being used poetically. Nup – I haven’t heard explanations of mokopuna. I’d be interested to hear yours. I could imagine it being linked to a well or flow from ancestors.

    • robertguyton

       /  October 8, 2018

      Righties denigrate Maori language, Lefties admire it.

      • PartisanZ

         /  October 8, 2018

        Goes a bit deeper I reckon Robert … To generalize wildly –

        – Lefties – I respect your otherness …

        – Righties – I’ll disrespect your otherness whenever I please because you’re not like me.

      • Gezza

         /  October 8, 2018

        Well, that’s not strictly true. I know a few pronounced lefties who denigrate Maori language and Maori. I don’t like them for it. It’s not really very helpful to me to put people in Lefty and Righty boxes and assume they all have the same attitudes to everything as everyone else in that “box”. Bill English surprised everyone with how much Te Reo Maori he’d picked up and was comfortable using, and I’d bet there are quite a few “righties” who speak as much or Maori.

        • PartisanZ

           /  October 8, 2018

          Gosh … I wonder if that’s why I said, “To generalize wildly” …???

          You’re correct of course, the Leftie vs Rightie thing is so unhelpful on here … and so so prevalent …

          • Gezza

             /  October 8, 2018

            I have no idea why you said to generalise wildly. Generalising wildly seems something of a contradiction in terms.

      • David in Aus

         /  October 8, 2018

        Disagree and agree.

        ‘Righties’ do not denigrate Maori Language, they just don’t want compulsion for everybody. The main reason being pragmatics: it is not very useful to communicate amongst ourselves or others. But many see the value of the language amongst Maori especially, because of the inherent linkage of language and culture. We think strong Maori communities, in all senses: spiritually, cultural, economically, is good for NZ as a whole. There are reactionaries (usually NZF voters) and they hate the Maori language, they are not Righties.

        ‘Leftists’ have this sense of rooting of the underdog, which is a noble sentiment. They want to support ‘oppressed groups’. Even if it contradicts some of their other values. If they were compelled to use the language personally, I suspect many would be very unhappy. For most, it is just lip service, many and most are not fluent in Maori or try to learn more than a few rudimentary phrases.

        • PartisanZ

           /  October 8, 2018

          Finely attuned and almost irrelevant sentiments IMHO David in aus …

          For “Righties” you appear to be speaking as though Maori and Pakeha ‘communities’ are completely separate. Whereabouts is this the case?

          For instance, what does a Pakeha tangata pirihimana do? What does he do if he is Senior in the ranks of the Police and attends the powhiri for a new policeman in a community that is 75% Maori, 25% Pakeha …

          I can tell you because I’ve seen it recently … He speaks Te Reo! And he does it well and respectfully … and he admits in English the Police have “a way to go” yet …

          That’s only one instance: What if you’re a doctor, nurse, lawyer, social worker … even town planners and roading engineers are starting to talk in terms of “partnerships with communities” nowadays …

          For “Leftists” you extrapolate your bogus starting premise of them “rooting for the underdog” further and further into Bullshit Land where, with no evidence whatsoever, Lefties only pay lip service to Te Reo.

          I don’t think either side, Right or Left, have any difficulty contradicting some of their own values on occasions …

    • David in aus

       /  October 8, 2018

      “This is about intent”.
      That is very right wing of you. It is about the consequences and offense taken. Do not dare be an apologists for these microaggressions.
      (Sarcasm)

      But I am glad reasonable people can agree that intent is very important. I have little time for those who want to be offended, aka Marvelly, just so they can announce their outrage and display their moral virtuousness.

      • PartisanZ

         /  October 8, 2018

        What the …?

        Why is questioning intent a Right Wing thing?

        Are you seriously saying that if someone comes up and slaps me I should ask, “Why am I offended by that?” What’s my intent in being offended?

        You seem to be saying that while you have no time for Marvelly you have all the time in the world for the “microaggressor” Luxon. [Your sarcasm went over my head there]

        People can happily offend to their hearts content. It is those who are offended who must suffer the consequences …

        Is there no place for self-awareness in the world?

        WTF?

        • David in Aus

           /  October 8, 2018

          Are not aware of ‘safe zones’ at Universities and ‘microaggression’ running amok amongst the Radical Left.

          “Microaggressions are the everyday verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs, or insults, whether intentional or unintentional, which communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative messages to target persons based solely upon their marginalized group membership.” Wikipedia

          It is consequences and not intent that matters. Perhaps you are not aware pernicious effects of the ideology. You are next. They will call you out if you inadvertently say something that offends some group.

          • PartisanZ

             /  October 8, 2018

            Then by your own definition Luxon is guilty of microaggression …

            Lizzie just asked, initially, ” … this feels out of place. What’s going on?”

            And what do you call being “accused of being “outraged”, told to lighten up, told that I was doing a disservice to te reo Māori, been called a “perpetually outraged radical feminist who hates men esp white men”… told to “get off [my] fucking high horse”, told to get a life, called a boring snowflake etc. etc”?

            This is okay ordinary everyday common-and-garden aggression, is it?

            • David in Aus

               /  October 8, 2018

              I am saying the concept Microaggression is an abomination. Anyone using that kind of term is dangerous to free thought and expression,
              and ultimately free society.

              Luxon is guilty of nothing. He is expressing himself the way he feels fit. There should not be apologies. Those that take offence should grow up.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              You think Luxon is merely expressing himself the way he sees fit … I respect that is your opinion.

              I think Luxon is sending a carefully planned, worded and indeed a sort of ‘coded’ [Blue] message of disrespect for Te Reo and antipathy plus discredit towards Labour-led coalition democracy … whose deliberative processes are A) taking longer than National’s did and B) Less ‘For Sale’ than National’s were …

              I find him offensive …

              Any respect for my opinion from you?

            • david in aus

               /  October 8, 2018

              You find it offensive. So what. Perhaps you need some resilience training.
              In reading your posts, it is clear you have no qualms in offending other people and that is the way it should be. Then there is a free exchange of ideas.

              But because you are offended, when it was not intended, someone else should alter their reasonable language? That is narcissistic. The first step towards thought control. And people wonder why there is reaction to political correctness.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              And you know Luxon intended no offence … How?

              I’m all for the free exchange of ideas like we are having now …

              And yes, I called one of my comments “Counter-offence” and set out to do so … We all risk offending with free speech and exchange …

              You say, “Those that take offence should grow up.”

              I say, on some occasions, “Those that take offence have grown up.”

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              I think Luxon is sending a carefully planned, worded and indeed a sort of ‘coded’ [Blue] message of disrespect for Te Reo and antipathy plus discredit towards Labour-led coalition democracy … whose deliberative processes are A) taking longer than National’s did and B) Less ‘For Sale’ than National’s were …

              Spare me days. I think you’re all hooey and no dui, PZ. Here, ask him yourself. If you don’t want to, let me know and I farkin will:

              Chief Executive
              Christopher Luxon
              Chief Executive Officer
              185 Fanshawe Street
              Auckland 1142, New Zealand 2105
              christopher.luxon@airnz.co.nz

            • david in aus

               /  October 8, 2018

              @Partisanz, It is my judgement that he meant no offence. I am not a mind reader nor should you be. I would be surprised his speech or comments was designed to aggravate Maori. He has no history of animus to Maori.

              People can take offence with anything. If we are afraid to offend people, is it possible to discuss any contentious topics?

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              @David in aus – “It is my judgement that he meant no offence. I am not a mind reader nor should you be.”

              But your judgement that he meant no offence is precisely the same kind of mind-reading you accuse me of doing in my judging that he did intend to disrespect both Te Reo and the government …

              Otherwise, instead of being afraid to offend anyone, we’ll have to give absolutely everyone the benefit of the doubt, won’t we?

              Ummmmmm … I don’t think so!

          • PartisanZ

             /  October 8, 2018

            All thinkey and no drinkey Gezza … That’s me!

            Nahhh … It’s conspiracy-speak mate … bitta fun … you know … ?

            Actually, I’m just guessing, but I reckon Luxon is as Blue as John Key and probably knows him quite well …

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              He might also know some Maori quite well. I don’t know. Have you asked him? Why are you so obsessed with projecting what you think into other people? Other people mostly just say what they think from what I see – except politicians. If I don’t understand I ask them to clarify. I don’t usually tell them what they mean in case I fuck it up and come across like a bigot.

            • robertguyton

               /  October 8, 2018

              Not re-packaing someone else’s words and attributing meaning to that is key to real communication, Gezza, as you say 🙂

            • robertguyton

               /  October 8, 2018

              *whispers – but it’s not always easy to do, is it…

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              @Gezza – “Have you asked him?”

              No. Lizzy Marvelly asked on my behalf. She asked “What’s going on?”

              “Why are you so obsessed with projecting what you think into other people? Other people mostly just say what they think from what I see …”

              These, my comments, is me saying what I think …

              Asked to judge a criminal you might say: “I think he’s innocent”

              I might say: “I think he’s guilty”

              Please enlighten me as to the difference between these two “thinkings” …???

              Here we are all judging each others words but only I am guilty of judging each others words … kinda weird …

              If “not prepackaging and attributing meaning” to other people’s words is the key to “real communication” Robert, I’d say its a very worthy aspiration but also impossible … Or leastwise about as possible as it is for a [subjective] human being to be truly objective …

            • robertguyton

               /  October 8, 2018

              Parti – hold fast, you can do it! The secret is not to be dragged down by those who can’t!
              Good luck.

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              These, my comments, is me saying what I think …

              No you’re not. You’re saying what you think they think.

              Asked to judge a criminal you might say: “I think he’s innocent”
              I might say: “I think he’s guilty” Please enlighten me as to the difference between these two “thinkings” …???

              Sure. I might think someone charged with a crime who’s a criminal is innocent, and you might think he’s guilty.

              I would know that, unless he told us, whether I think he’s innocent or guilty, I can’t know what he was thinking – either now – or at the time of the crime.

              You would most probably assume you knew what he was thinking in both cases.

  13. PartisanZ

     /  October 8, 2018

    Counter-offence …

    Short of accepting socialism, nothing scares Righties more than the prospect of accepting Te Reo …

    They know, as we all do, that language embodies and conveys culture, and culture encompasses world-view … They may even suspect that te marae is a better model of decision-making than Parliament …

    For them Te Reo is the ‘thin end of the wedge’ of proper recognition of hapu iwi Maori as tangata whenua and hence acceptance and honouring of Te Tiriti o Waitangi …

    The everyday racist’s response is casual putdown … Offence disguised as sarcasm or humour …

    Nothing new here!

    • Gezza

       /  October 8, 2018

      I would rate you as one of the the most chronically sarcastic posters here. So this makes you … what?

      • PartisanZ

         /  October 8, 2018

        Once again Gezza, I headed my comment “Counter-offence” …

        This is a thinly veiled reference to the topic heading, “Using te reo is good unless someone is offended” which, IMHO, has been used as a vehicle of chronic denial, obfuscation, red-herrings and what-aboutism …

        Marvelly wasn’t talking about pronunciation or all the world’s other fucken languages that have been “colonised” by invasion or immigration …

        The topic is Te Reo HERE in Aotearoa New Zealand and its potential maligning my a prominent business leader who, IMHO, is actually articulating a distinctly Right-Wing view of this government’s attempts at deliberative democracy … [the highest form of democracy we humans have managed to invent so far] …

        I’ll go with sarcasm if chronic denial, obfuscation, red-herrings and what-aboutism are the only other things on offer …

        • Gezza

           /  October 8, 2018

          I’ll go with sarcasm if chronic denial, obfuscation, red-herrings and what-aboutism are the only other things on offer …

          I’ll go with difference of opinion – but accept that you would need to break that down into half a dozen other things & toss colonisation & democracy and invasion and the usuals.

          • Gezza

             /  October 8, 2018

            * toss in – soz. kai time for me

          • PartisanZ

             /  October 8, 2018

            I’d go with difference of opinion too … if people were talking about the topic!

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              We are talking about the topic. You’re talking about socialism, colonisation, invasion, immigration, chronic denial, Right Wingers, marae being better decision-making models than parliament (totally different situation – imagine all this year’s legislation being debated by Nga Puhi), Te Tiriti, hapu iwi as tangata whenua – like pakeha are 2nd class citizens or something – the usuals.

              We’re just talking about it being ok to use Maori words in English.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              And inescapably justifying Luxon’s comments …

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              I just don’t have a problem with the phrase “less hui more do-ey. You do. So does Lizzy Marvelly. Big deal. I have more of a problem with you pretending to be able to read his mind and attribute all sorts of shitty beliefs and attitudes to him through his simply using what is now a common enuf phrase, used by even Maori people, with no justification but your own thought projecting.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              When I ask “What’s going on?” I don’t necessarily have a problem with anything. I might just be curious … like “What’s going on?”

              This might be the case for Lizzie Marvelly too?

              I don’t have a problem with “Less hui more do-ey” either … per se …

              But inserted into a newspaper commentary – effectively a press release – arising from a ‘Mood of the Boardroom 2018’ survey and conference – by one of the highest ‘ranking’ CEOs of the country’s iconic corporate business and my suspicions are certainly aroused …

              Nothing else in his spiel alludes to Maori in any way. It’s fairly straightforward business-speak … very accessible … and much of it makes good sense …

              Does he use even one other Maori word or phrase? No …

              Strong hints at motivation emerge when Luxon mentions the business community being “attacked personally” and “the Trumpian politics of that” from NZFirst …

              There’s enough circumstantial evidence for me to think there’s intent here beyond mere “common enuf phrase” and David in aus’s “guilty of nothing” …

              That’s all … no big deal …

    • David in aus

       /  October 8, 2018

      You should post in Te Reo Maori. We would all be happy that you did. It wouldn’t frighten anyone. But if you were compelled to do so, very few would be happy, even ‘Righties’.

      • PartisanZ

         /  October 8, 2018

        Should doesn’t enter into it David in aus, especially not what you think I “should” do …

        I was compelled to learn English and a bunch of other subjects at compellsory school …

        In Canada 80% of the population are “compelled” to learn French … the other colonizer language …

        • David in Aus

           /  October 8, 2018

          I would never live in Canada. Drives me crazy, visiting there for a couple of weeks was enough.

          They have a Bill C16, compelled speech laws, where you have to address someone by their chosen pronoun: Ze, Zhey, Zir. Otherwise, you are breaking laws and will be fined and if you refuse to pay- jailed.

          Utter madness.

          • PartisanZ

             /  October 8, 2018

            Well David, it’s certainly hard if you’ve never had to show that kind of respect before …

            • david in aus

               /  October 8, 2018

              There is a difference between showing respect and compulsion of speech. Compulsion of speech is the first step towards totalitarianism. Using state sanctioned violence to compel speech is wrong.

            • robertguyton

               /  October 8, 2018

              “Using state sanctioned violence to compel speech is wrong.”
              You are compelled to give the police your name and address if asked.

            • david in aus

               /  October 8, 2018

              Freedom of thought and expression; Don’t conflate those concepts with law and order. Authoritarian types do not see a difference. Next step, a police state.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              It took a civil war costing 660,000 lives to rid America of slavery …

              And then, 100 years later, it took a civil rights movement costing many lives to rid America of ‘official’ discrimination … Jim Crow …

              It seems perhaps compulsion is warranted sometimes?

            • david in aus

               /  October 8, 2018

              How do you think Civil Right happened? Freedom of Speech played its part. If you didn’t have that, there could be no ‘arc towards justice’. Those in power would shut down anything they didn’t like, as in Saudi Arabia or North Korea.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              You’re right, those in power would shut down anything they didn’t like, as they did Black Americans for nearly 100 years after they’d been “liberated” …

              Thinking that ‘Lefties’ really want New Zealand to become a North Korea-like State is rather the equally ridiculous converse of me thinking Luxon is speaking on behalf of Corporate-Political elites …

  14. Alan Wilkinson

     /  October 8, 2018

    Marvelly isn’t worth the paper she is printed on. Folk will use Maori as it works for them. Mostly it will be integrated into Kiwi English. That’s good. The self-important will pontificate and complain and the nation will ignore them as they should.

    • PartisanZ

       /  October 8, 2018

      @Alan – “Folk will use Maori as it works for them.”

      Some of them will be self-important pontificators, a personality trait not confined to only one type or affiliation of people. I, for instance, suspect Christopher Luxon of being one.

      And folk like Marvelly, Leonie Hayden, Leonie Pihama, Sarah and Wairangi Jones will go on asking them why they use Te Reo in certain ways. What is their intent?

      That’s good.

      I sense te awa is flowing in the direction of respect, towards the moana of understanding, cooperation, deference, dignity and collaboration …

      Some self-important pontificators are therefore trying to make te wai flow uphill.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  October 8, 2018

        The intent is simply to communicate and express yourself clearly and concisely. Those who use language with political intent are easily identified and ignored.

        • PartisanZ

           /  October 8, 2018

          Bob Jones … Don Brash … Chris Luxon …

          You’ve ignored them all have you?

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  October 8, 2018

            When appropriate, yes, yourself included and probably most often.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 8, 2018

              A claim hardly borne out by lengthy too-and-fro ‘conversations’ we’ve had on here over the years … especially given your proclivity for needing to have the last word …

            • Gezza

               /  October 8, 2018

              I find the best solution is post something back to him just before midnight. That way I win. Anything posted the next day doesn’t count.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  October 8, 2018

              I said “when appropriate”. That allows for exceptions but take a look at this thread just for example if you want to calculate ignoring frequency.

  15. PartisanZ

     /  October 8, 2018

    @deborah coddington – “Good grief. This is the sort of silliness which discourages the learning of Te Reo. Why bother when head prefect may give you a detention?”

    Good grief Deborah! Is a polite question (or even a detention) from someone you bizarrely perceive as “head prefect” all it takes to discourage you?

    Yours is the sort of ‘snowflake’ & PC silliness which discourages curiosity, play, exploration, free expression and the learning of absolutely anything at all! Why bother when head prefect may tell you you’re supposed to be discouraged?

  16. sorethumb

     /  October 8, 2018

    We are in the middle of another Māori renaissance at the moment.
    …….
    Massive promotion

    Te reo classes are jam-packed, with long waiting lists for those hoping to jump aboard the language waka.
    ……
    Iwi members public servants and pull-throughs.
    ……….
    Classes to small for the tiny demand.

    The language of the land is being spoken more and more on the airwaves.
    …….
    The Land doesn’t have a language. The people have a language.
    =================================================
    Speaking of Grievance: Colonisation v Rape of Nanking?

    https://quillette.com/2018/10/06/dont-get-fooled-again-the-continuing-necessity-of-anti-communism/

  17. PartisanZ

     /  October 8, 2018

    FARKEN MEATY TOPIC …. Huh!?