Open Forum – Monday

29 October 2018

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42 Comments

  1. Corky

     /  October 29, 2018

    Watched an interesting piece on NewsHub last night. A doctor has combined two strong medical skin creams and is using this potion to successfully cure many of his patients skin conditions.

    The medical council has censured him because his potion hasn’t been tested for safety. The council have a point, but given its long use with no known side effects they could have gone about this situation differently.

    The doctor is now under supervision; but can still use his potion, except I assume, not at the potency of the original formula. Naturally he won’t get the same results and that will be the end of his miracle cures.

    This is the same medical council who take drug companies assurances that their products are safe and all relevant studies have been completed.

    Reply
  2. PartisanZ

     /  October 29, 2018

    Speaking of ‘toxicity’ …

    ‘Time to put the ‘health’ into Health and Safety’ – Newsroom

    “Everyone in the construction industry knows what the pressures are that drive their colleagues to suicide. But few want to talk about it, and few companies are looking seriously at the issue. Alexia Russell reports.

    The construction industry has the highest suicide figures for any industry group – 6.9 percent, a figure marginally higher than forestry and farming. (At 6.8 percent.)

    A Building Research Association (BRANZ) study released last month asked if there was a need for research into the reasons why. Its report revealed the most important and often-mentioned driver for suicide is the poor culture employees live with on a daily basis …. macho and bullying, and including homophobic behaviour.

    The boom-bust cycle of the industry and the pressure that results is also a big factor. “Good times” are often the hardest times, with pressure to deliver quickly and in quantity. Add customers whose internet surfing and reality TV watching means they know more than builders; the high prevalence of drug and alcohol; the ever-present cell phone which means you can’t hide from your customers, and you’re looking at a high-risk workforce.”

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/10/28/293594/time-to-put-the-health-into-health-and-safety

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  October 29, 2018

      Actually having to do something becomes a nightmare when you have a vast army of overpaid paper pushers to tell you what you must do and can’t do. The construction industry is surely the greatest sufferer of that.

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  October 29, 2018

        I’m sure the RMA can be blamed for the “poor culture” of macho-ism and bullying being the primary driver of suicides in the construction industry Alan …

        … that makes sense …

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  October 29, 2018

          ACT is trying to do something about the RMA; they think it’s far too long, and it is; it’s longer than War & Peace and 1/1000 as interesting, Full marks to David Seymour for reading it in his own time.

          Reply
        • Gezza

           /  October 29, 2018

          I will take it your comment is ironical PZ. Hard to understand how Al could completely miss the bullseye on that one, unless you realise for some bizarre obsessive reason he was shooting at a completely different irrelevant target with bureaucrats on it from everyone else, somewhere across the road, in a different building.

          Reply
  3. PartisanZ

     /  October 29, 2018

    Some more REAL news … not just the daily see-saw squabble … Left, Right, Up, Down …

    ‘Sweeping measures needed to halt biodiversity crisis’ – Newsroom

    “Forest & Bird chief executive Kevin Hague said native wildlife had been left to fall into crisis.

    “This crisis is unfolding mostly on privately-owned land, where much of our most threatened wildlife is now found. Regional and district plans are meant to protect these important values, but these are inconsistent and sometimes ineffective.””

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/10/28/292261/sweeping-measures-needed-to-halt-biodiversity-crisis

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  October 29, 2018

      Sounds like a good scenario for more intrusive anti private property rights legislation, Parti.

      Forest & Bird need to acknowledge many of the conservation efforts farmers are implementing on their properties.

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  October 29, 2018

        They do acknowledge those efforts … I’ve read about it recently … F&B are right onboard helping farmers with those conservation efforts, as are QEII Trust.

        This is a report about what ISN’T happening Corky … not what IS happening …

        Spot the difference son.

        Oh yes, of course, God-given Private Property Rights … How could I forget?

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  October 29, 2018

          ”This is a report about what ISN’T happening Corky … not what IS happening …”

          You may have read about this..I doubt few others have. When I see F&B on TV it’s usually a bitch feast or – climate change like – predictions of doom.

          ”Oh yes, of course, God-given Private Property Rights … How could I forget?”

          There is no such dichotomy as ‘human rights’ versus ‘property rights.’ No human rights can exist without property rights.

          Ayn Rand

          You need to wrap your large IQ around that, son.. maybe ask yourself this:
          Am I arguing against myself..contradicting myself? Am I using that dichotomy in my comments?

          If yes..your next hurdle is – can I reconcile my political philosophy with this realisation.?

          The answer is of course,no. Your political philosophy does not respect property rights above the ‘Hive’ mentality. Therefore you are anti human rights.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  October 29, 2018

            Rand was a simpleton who died…on the welfare she is meant to have …despised.

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  October 29, 2018

              That has been argued a few times on this blog… I don’t propose to correct you again. But thanks for you stella contribution of nothing.

              By the way, Blazer. Do you have the ‘Hive’ mentality…or have you upgraded to property rights?

          • phantom snowflake

             /  October 29, 2018

            AYN RAND!! lololol…
            Sorry, I couldn’t help posting this again:

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  October 29, 2018

              The was very funny..but not because of Rand…rather the commentator and you posting it? 😄

            • phantom snowflake

               /  October 29, 2018

              I’m glad you enjoyed that Corky; here’s Sam Harris on Rand. (under 2 minutes, that’s all that’s required) “Those who are drawn to her philosophy often strike me as malignantly selfish…”

            • Corky

               /  October 29, 2018

              ”Well, you know, I haven’t spent a lot of time reading Rand.”

              I stopped at the end of that utterance. Why listen to ignorance?

            • phantom snowflake

               /  October 29, 2018

              Corky: Rand’s ‘Objectivism’ is nothing more than distilled narcissism disguised as political philosophy. Selfishness is a virtue my arse. What little time I’ve just wasted on such foolishness is way too much. Bye.

            • Corky

               /  October 29, 2018

              Lol.. PS. You forgot the mainspring of her philosophy.. that being self responsibility and philosophical consistency across the board. These concepts are a talisman against these ills you speak of.

              ”Selfishness is a virtue my arse.”

              Well, the next time you go shopping, thank that shop owner for being selfish. Because you can bet your bottom dollar he didn’t open his shop to please you and I…no, the selfish bastard wants to make money..and not spend a dime on us.

              Catch you later.

        • PartisanZ

           /  October 29, 2018

          Firstly, of course, and most obviously, private property rights are bestowed upon us by the State and enforced by the State’s own ‘Justice’ system … Police, Courts & Prisons

          It isn’t about EITHER “the Hive Mentality” – a derisive name for the State that protects your individual property rights – OR individual property rights, it’s about the right ethical combination of these two – along with the form individual property rights take … especially in relation to “property in the soil” …

          “Even notionally … this property is somewhat problematic. Property is that which is so closely related to me that I can control it, that I can take it with me and can destroy it. I do not control the soil … To speak here of property as one does of property in an article of use is to renounce thought …

          Of course the earth is big enough to provide [for] everyone … But it is only sufficient if its distribution is removed from the sphere of arbitrary action, and if the soil belongs to society as a whole, and only its temporary use by the individual is permitted.”

          – Frank E Warner – ‘Future of Man’ – London 1944

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  October 29, 2018

            Good to see you have had a think, Parti. I must concede, like you, I had trouble getting my head around this years ago. My attitude was a little like PS above.

            ”Firstly, of course, and most obviously, private property rights are bestowed upon us by the State and enforced by the State’s own ‘Justice’ system … Police, Courts & Prisons.”

            That doesn’t necessarily follow, but most of the time that is correct. And it’s here the first problem arises..legislation and enforcement controlling the individual use of his land, instead of protecting the individual from state control and other individuals provided he isn’t hurting others.

            Hive Mentality refers to socialism. It refers to both National and Labour and putting community first above each individuals property right.

            Did it ever occur to you if property rights were sacrosanct much of our problems would disappear?. For example the RMA allowing Maori rights over your property. Councils rorting building consents. You name it. I know your response to that, but that’s another story.

            ”It’s about the right ethical combination of these two – along with the form individual property rights take … especially in relation to “property in the soil” …”

            Ethical?? It doesn’t work that way. That you are allowing ”ethical” control over an individuals property right shows you aren’t accepting of genuine property rights. When do you think this mythical combination will eventuate between state and individual? Never, because the state is always the dominate partner.

            ”Even notionally … this property is somewhat problematic. Property is that which is so closely related to me that I can control it, that I can take it with me and can destroy it. I do not control the soil … To speak here of property as one does of property in an article of use is to renounce thought …”

            Semantics: How should we address this issue then? Chattel Rights v Soil Rights?

            ”Of course the earth is big enough to provide [for] everyone … But it is only sufficient if its distribution is removed from the sphere of arbitrary action, and if the soil belongs to society as a whole, and only its temporary use by the individual is permitted.”

            ”Arbitrary
            adjective
            Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.”

            Don’t we already have that to certain degree, Parti? After all that’s what this debate is about. Extrapolate your argument out and the next stop is communism.

            That didn’t work well for China ,Russia and Cuba with their 1950’s cars.

            As a matter of fact I think in law an individual does not own the soil (?)

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  October 29, 2018

              Communist China is the powerhouse economy of the…world.

            • Corky

               /  October 29, 2018

              Correct. But they ain’t using communism for production, mainly because communes couldn’t produce PlayStations and Life support equipment for hospitals.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  October 29, 2018

              I wonder how many people can look at Ayn Rand and not read it as it’s spelt.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  October 29, 2018

              …and how many read Cork’s reply to Partz.

            • PartisanZ

               /  October 29, 2018

              There are countless examples throughout history of individual property free-for-alls, of which European colonization in general is a useful model, with perhaps the United States of Amnesia being the prime example …

              But our own Aotearoa New Zealand experience prior to 1840, and much of our subsequent history, is also highly illustrative …

              What happens is, a relative minority exploit the great majority of people and the natural environment horrendously …

              … until the State – the ‘democratically’ elected Hive mentality – steps in to prevent them doing so quite as badly …

            • Corky

               /  October 29, 2018

              ”What happens is, a relative minority exploit the great majority of people and the natural environment horrendously …”

              Yes, Maori were good at that. Goodbye Moa..goodbye weaker tribes. Of course, no tribe, no land..no protection.

              ”Until the State – the ‘democratically’ elected Hive mentality – steps in to prevent them doing so quite as badly …”

              Yes, the problem is the Hive should just be there to protect us from ourselves, and outside influences. The Hive shouldn’t need to become an all encompassing entity. Problems between Individual v Individual should be handled by the courts in accordance with our imaginary Constitution..

              Just watched a great movie tonight – V For Vendetta. A great quote from that film was:

              ” The people should not be scared of their government. The government should be scared of their people.”

              Well, Americans are OK, Parti…they have guns. What have you got if your government comes for you?

  4. unitedtribes2

     /  October 29, 2018

    I live in an area were a unviable farm was cut up into 50 odd 4HA lifestyle blocks. During the process activists claimed that this would lead to ecological devastation. The opposite has been the case. Native bush and forest now exists were once was weed infested scrub. Most of the owners are involved or allow predator control. The council undertake surveys of wetland area and have included my property in this. Last survey found the establishment of spotless crake in numbers they had not seen before. Most land owners protect the environment on their properties when it is left to them to do so. Local Body busybodies sometimes are not helpful with this.

    Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  October 29, 2018

      Oh well unitedtribes2, your personal, local experience must make everything All Good and A-Okay right across the whole entire nation …

      Let’s stop talking about it then, shall we?

      Reply
    • Griff.

       /  October 29, 2018

      unitedtribes2
      Your observation is aligned with mine
      i live on a former dairy farm that went bankrupt and was divided into life style blocks.
      The owners of blocks have fenced off streams and existing mature bush, replanted natives and increased both weed control and pest eradication. The land is still productively farmed with more diversity then as a dairy unit including a native plant nursery, goats ,pigs, sheep,store cattle and forestry.
      I formally lived on a block subdivided from an ex dry stock farm where the same had happened .
      Small block farmers are not as motivated by profit and often put far more effort into caring for their land than a commercial farmer can afford .

      Reply
    • robertguyton

       /  October 29, 2018

      That’s a good story, united tribes and potentially a good model for the future.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  October 29, 2018

        Absolutely. Sell off the DoC reserves and kiwi will thrive in them instead of declining.

        Reply
  5. High Flying Duck

     /  October 29, 2018

    Reply
    • Griff.

       /  October 29, 2018

      Reply
      • High Flying Duck

         /  October 29, 2018

        I doubt the lines would be that straight if your chart was done properly.

        Reply
        • Griff.

           /  October 29, 2018

          Yours would be confusing as .
          IMHO Most libertarians are atheist .

          Reply
          • High Flying Duck

             /  October 29, 2018

            Griff, I think the purple field is another way of saying just that.:)

            I have great disdain for authoritarianism. In fact I think the Government should set up a special armed force to unilaterally detain and incarcerate anyone who believes in totalitarianism

            A couple of points:

            Right wingers do not hate poor people. They concentrate on their and their family’s own wellbeing and don’t have time to waste energy thinking too much about the poor until they come to working out their charitable giving.

            Why do you think being poor is more associated with the left?

            Reply
            • Griff.

               /  October 29, 2018

              It is a joke
              Even some conservatives smoke weed.
              They just hide it better .

            • High Flying Duck

               /  October 29, 2018

              I did get that Griff.
              Just to be clear, so was my point about arresting people who believe in authoritarianism.

            • Griff.

               /  October 29, 2018

              Poe’s Law states:[1]
              “”Without a clear indication of the author’s intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism.

  6. Kitty Catkin

     /  October 29, 2018

    I have always understood nationalism to be different to patriotism, and to be not a good thing, Patriots love their country, nationalists think that it’s the only one that has any value. The Nazis advocated nationalism.

    Is Trump that ignorant or is he being like Humpty-Dumpty in Alice; words mean what he says they mean? If any NZ PM announced that they were a nationalist, I would be veery worried.

    Reply

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