Protest over Parliamentary prayer

There was a sizeable protest at Parliament yesterday against the removal of ‘Jesus’ from Parliament’s prayer (I think that ‘god’ should also be removed from it).

‘Judas Mallard’ is rather over the top.

In January: New parliamentary prayer a compromise, says Mallard

One of the first things Trevor Mallard did after being appointed Speaker last year was to update the prayer read out at the start of each question time.

Mr Mallard said the reference to Jesus was a Christian one, and he wanted the prayer to be more inclusive of other religious beliefs.

He said the prayer was still a work in progress, and he will “keep thinking about”.

There had been consultation and feedback from MPs across the Parliament.

The majority, he said wanted a secular prayer, but he has settled on what he described as a “compromise”.

Yesterday: Protesters push to put Jesus back in Parliamentary prayer

Today’s rally was arranged by the group Jesus for New Zealand and included prayers by pastors from a number of evangelical churches.

Event organiser Ross Smith said New Zealand had a Christian heritage that he did not want erased.

“It’s a legacy. The principals and the values that are in this nation are based on our Christian-Judea roots.”

Removing the name would destroy those roots, he said.

New Zealand is supposed to have democracy separated from religion, has largely moved on from traditional Christian practices.

It is also important to note that some significant principals and the values that are in this nation are based were pre-Christian Aotearoa.

Petition of Pastor Ross Smith for Jesus for NZ – Include Jesus Christ in Parliamentary Prayer

Petition of Pastor Ross Smith for Jesus for NZ, That the House of Representatives revise the Standing Orders to provide that the parliamentary prayer must include the name of Jesus Christ

Stuff: Parliamentary prayer rally calls for speaker to reinstate references to Jesus

Mallard said in a statement that he had no plans to make further changes to the Parliamentary prayer but respected the views of those who protested at the rally.

What about praying for no religious prayer in Parliament? Will that work?

 

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69 Comments

  1. Zedd

     /  October 31, 2018

    What happened to ‘separation of religious & civil power’ (Church & State); I agree with Mallard.. Aotearoa/NZ is no longer a ‘Christian country’ in 2018.. (if it ever was ?)
    The majority may claim to be ‘christians’, but the reality is, there is a growing number of other religions/cultures, inc. Islam, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhism etc. Also Judaism does not accept Jesus as their ‘messiah’ or Son of God.

    “Allahu Akbar… God is Great !” 🙂

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  October 31, 2018

      The problem is Mallard should have given it over for a vote. Those other religions don’t count. New Zealand is/was a Christine country. A prayer does not mean the state and religion aren’t separate.

      “Allahu Akbar… God is Great !” 🙂”

      Yep, thanks for reminding me why the West is dying..and it’s not because of Muslims.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  October 31, 2018

        Christine who Corks? Fletcher?

        Reply
      • Griff.

         /  October 31, 2018

        The majority of kiwis have no religion.
        They still have a prayer to imaginary gods they just no longer specify whose.

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  October 31, 2018

          That’s fine. Why not a vote?

          Reply
          • Griff.

             /  October 31, 2018

            Why a vote ?
            All they did was delete reference to the mythical magic zombie .
            The small number of fundies who believe in the magic zombie so give a fuck dont count .

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  October 31, 2018

              It’s a democracy. Not a one man band, even though in this case Mallard has the power.

              Are you worried such a vote may be in favour of retaining the prayer?

            • Griff.

               /  October 31, 2018

              I dont give a smeg.
              It is primitive to believe in god, gods, magic spirits and the rest of the crap.
              If there must be a prayer to imaginary friends it is only fair that it includes as many of the deluded as possible in the interests of equality.

          • Zedd

             /  October 31, 2018

            ‘That’s fine. Why not a vote?’ sez corky

            Never a true word spoken.. who did you NOT vote for in 2017 ?

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  October 31, 2018

              That’s true. And neither would you be voting on this issue.

      • Patzcuaro

         /  October 31, 2018

        Aotearoa New Zealand was once a pristine country until it was populated by a lot of Christians.

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  October 31, 2018

          Aotearoa New Zealand was once a pristine country until cannibals came and killed the Moas; each other and Chatham Islanders. Doesn’t pay to get too moralistic, Patz.

          Reply
        • sorethumb

           /  November 1, 2018

          Maori set fire to one third of it’s forests. Lack of technology =/= conservation.

          Reply
      • Zedd

         /  October 31, 2018

        ‘A prayer does not mean the state and religion aren’t separate.’ sez corky
        Then why have it, before the start of Q-time ?

        ‘Yep, thanks for reminding me why the West is dying..and it’s not because of Muslims.’ sez corky

        pls do tell… ? :/

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  October 31, 2018

          ”Then why have it, before the start of Q-time ?”

          It’s remains from when people had a different morality, weren’t so self absorbed and
          our society more insular.

          As explaining to you why you’re a totem of Western decline..I can’t. You wouldn’t understand.

          Reply
    • Zedd

       /  October 31, 2018

      oops I forgot to add; the Atheists/Agnostics, who either deny God or dont know or care about religion.. likely just as big a group as those who claim to be christians etc.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  October 31, 2018

        More people have a belief than don’t. The protestors should be thankful to have a prayer at all. They must have far too much time on their hands.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  October 31, 2018

          Well,, from what I can see, as regards getting Jesus chucked back into the recipe, they haven’t got a prayer!

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  November 1, 2018

            I can’t see their point, if they believe that they are the same ‘All are God and God is one.’

            It was unfortunate that they looked like a pack of loonies.

            They should be glad that there IS a prayer and stop whining/

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  November 1, 2018

              It was unfortunate that they looked like a pack of loonies
              Au contraire. That is what those who believe this nonsense really are, and too many of them walk around believing it, completely unaware of the extent of their delusion and sheer amount of crass stupidity, nastiness and obvious complete impossibility in their Holy Books, and even worse, teaching it to impressionable children from a very young age so that they can take years to eventually work out it’s rubbish for fear of burning in hell for eternity. I agree with something I think PZ once said: It’s a form of child abuse.

  2. Gezza

     /  October 31, 2018

    I saw those plonkers on 1ewes, and I thought:
    “Jesus bloody Christ ! What a bunch of absolute fuckwits!”

    Nearly every single one of them given a sound-bite said “the people of New Zealand” want Jesus to get put back in the Parliamentary prayer.

    Fuck off. No they don’t. In fact most of the sane ones I reckon wouldn’t care a toss if it got dumped all together. Few people bother to watch and listen to Parliament and even hear the blimmin prayer – and it they do listen to what help it asks for of God – they’d realise straight away, when they watch the carry on that follows, in Question Time, God’s not even bloody listening ! He’s out to lunch.

    Reply
  3. Patzcuaro

     /  October 31, 2018

    It seems hypocritical to start parliament with a Christian prayer because the minute it is over it descends into a very unchristian rabble. Loving they neighbour seems to be reserved for after hours.

    Reply
  4. robertguyton

     /  October 31, 2018

    Jesus has left the building House.

    Reply
  5. robertguyton

     /  October 31, 2018

    Jesus has left the building House.

    Reply
  6. duperez

     /  October 31, 2018

    A group of religious people in creating a fuss about the word ‘Jesus’ being removed from the Parliamentary prayer because of our Christian-Judea roots ironically highlights the necessity of the whole prayer being done with.

    The formulaic, cruise-control prayer performed as it is is weird. It’s a bit of bullshit to make out that everything is sweet and honourable and everyone there is intent on doing everything that is sweet and honourable.

    Would that the protesters spend the same amount of time in trying to get the inhabitants of Parliament to actually follow what the prayer says, sans Jesus or not. Our Christian-Judea roots? A demonstration of how rooted were are.

    Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  October 31, 2018

      As always, nail on the head comment from duperez …

      “New Zealand is supposed to have democracy separated from religion, has largely moved on from traditional Christian practices.”

      I think we’re kidding ourselves if we believe this. Talk and action have obviously been in process of separating for some considerable time … many centuries …

      Everything about ‘Westminster Parliament’ reeks of some derivative form of Ecumenical Council … doesn’t matter how they try to disguise it … E.G., as a ‘Lodge’ of some kind instead …

      The separation of Church and State has a very long way to go, as does our moving on from traditional Christian practices …

      “It is also important to note that some significant principals and the values [upon which] this nation are based were pre-Christian Aotearoa.”

      Still largely tokenism … A very long way to go on this kaupapa too … but any movement in that direction can only benefit the common good …

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  October 31, 2018

        The separation of Church and State does not rule out ‘ceremony’ of some sort, which I think is an essential part of beginning and concluding meetings …

        I believe Maori have a very healthy take on this … and that it has been influenced by the best of not necessarily Christian Pakeha practices …

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  October 31, 2018

          You need to make your mind up.

          Reply
          • PartisanZ

             /  October 31, 2018

            The EITHER//OR polar dichotomy only exists inside your head Corky …

            Safety or Terror … Good or Bad … Whatever it is?

            Reply
            • robertguyton

               /  October 31, 2018

              Anyone else noticed dawn and dusk, midday and midnight and the multitude of subtle changes inbetween?

            • Corky

               /  October 31, 2018

              So you believe in magic…but no, not really…but maybe if Maori do it..not so much if Whitey does it. But hold on, I call it ceremonial, so no big deal

              Well, you are on own here, buddy…because it seems there is dichotomy in the arguments on this thread..apart from mine.

          • PartisanZ

             /  October 31, 2018

            That’s true Corky … You are only the MOST obsessive …

            Reply
      • Corky

         /  October 31, 2018

        ”The separation of Church and State has a very long way to go, as does our moving on from traditional Christian practices …”

        So in reality, apart from the prayer..and our Westminster Parliament being some pale derivative of a Ecumenical Council ( in your opinion)…where is the religious influence?

        You may realise the advantage Muslims have over secular populations like us..while we all hive off in different directions with no unifying ideal, Islam marches forward as a cohesive force apart from some intersecular bloodletting.

        That’s why I don’t throw religion out with the bathwater…unless you can show me where it has undue influence on our legislative processes.

        Reply
        • PartisanZ

           /  October 31, 2018

          A major dissertation and subsequent open-minded discussion – which essentially can’t happen here – would be required to answer your first question … I’m somewhat open-minded about it …

          My answer presently is: Christian religion pervades everything in our society. PLEASE NOTE: I’m not talking about pure Christianity here, which can be practiced together or alone. I’m talking about organised Christian religions … Church religions.

          An extreme example with exaggeration for effect, for argument’s sake, is prostitution.

          Notwithstanding money – which is another whole interconnected discussion – prostitution exists because of sexual repression through Church doctrines inimical to life … These are so old now as to be transferred by ‘nurture osmosis’, acculturation and possibly in our DNA …

          Money, on the other hand, makes prostitutes of us all.

          Christian religions are ‘corporations’ in the business of social control for both ‘social’ and economic ‘profit’ … Their social profit is measured in ‘devout following’ or adherence … which is a kind of measure of non-thinking and non-awareness among the population … despite some relatively healthy outcomes like ‘community’ and communion …

          I might even extend the analogy to say, with exaggeration for effect, Church religions economic profit is the profit of our prostitution …

          Western society as we know it can only best be described as Judeo-Christian ‘Secular’ Western civilization … because our societal whakapapa (if you will) is Judeo-Christian, with a strong element of Greco-Roman tyranny.

          We have ‘democracy’ to the extent that Church, Monarchist and Oligarchic rulers have historically allowed us to have … progressively … but hardly progressive …

          Your second part’s easy: Genuine secular humanism, properly understood, perhaps in the form of something akin to Warner’s ‘Natural Ethics’, could easily weld a society together much more healthily than Islam or any other religion … and it wouldn’t be without its ‘religious’ aspect and spirituality either …

          Which answers your last part … absolutely do not throw ‘religion’ out with the bathwater … just toss the murky, dirty, filthy water it is bathing in.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  October 31, 2018

            Don’t encourage the silly ass, Parti.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  October 31, 2018

              He lost me in the end. Was heading somewhere clear and precise and then I gave up. Too many words and concepts crashing around. Lost interest.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  November 1, 2018

              😀 😀 😀

    • Gezza

       /  October 31, 2018

      The formulaic, cruise-control prayer performed as it is is weird.
      I’m not giving you a downtick or an uptick for that comment – but actually under Speaker Trev the prayer is not performed in formulaic, cruise-control mode. It’s performed properly – and he’s done it frequently in Maori, has done it in Tongan, Samoan, and I think even Hindi. Trev performs the prayer with proper decorum.

      The fact that all MPs including him then proceed to completely ignore it and that God doesn’t even listen and make them do what the prayer asks is down to the very obvious severe shortcomings of both the MPs and Almighty God.

      Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  November 1, 2018

      The point is that multiculturalism (an unmandated Labour initiative has diluted the number of committed Christians).

      Reply
  7. Zedd

     /  October 31, 2018

    I have noticed Mallard asking MPs from other ‘ethnic origin’ or religions (Indian, Asian or Pacifika) to occasionally read the prayer, esp. if it is a week celebrating their culture.. “Hey good idea man” 🙂

    The staunch ‘We are a Christian nation & everyone else, needs to get with this program’.. (rent a crowd ?) just needs to get their heads out of the middle ages.. or where ever it maybe; “Welcome to 21st century, multicultural Aotearoa/NZ”

    btw: there are 1000s of ‘Christian sects/faiths’ who are they really advocating for ?
    RCC, Methodist, 7th day Adv., Jehovah witness, Lutheran, Anglican, Rastafarian, Russian Orth. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum…. :/

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  October 31, 2018

      ”Hey good idea man.” v ”Then why have it, before the start of Q-time ? ( the prayer).”

      😄😄

      Jeez, what waste of time engaging these people.

      Reply
      • Zedd

         /  October 31, 2018

        its called ‘having an open mind’; listening to others, even IF you dont always agree ?!
        As opposed to a ‘one track/closed one’ 😦

        Reply
        • Zedd

           /  October 31, 2018

          enuf sed.. 🙂 🙂

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  October 31, 2018

            Best not to use ”enuf ”
            Best not to let Gezza call you Zeddo.
            Just sayn.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  October 31, 2018

              *Some posters* Zedd can tell have some class and dignity, and politely seek his permission for the use of an occasional affectionate variation. Mr Zedd and I understand respectfulness.
              Just saying.

        • Corky

           /  October 31, 2018

          Really? I was talking about you contradicting yourself in your rush to have an ”open mind.’

          Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  October 31, 2018

      Eastern Orthodox; it has many groups, Greek, Serbian, Rumanian, Russian….I can’t think of any more offhand.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  October 31, 2018

        Ukrainian. They have just split from the hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox establishment & the Russian State and Church Patriarchy have been spitting blood.

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  November 1, 2018

          I miss hearing about all that.

          I was married in the Roumanian Orthodox church, as the Serbian/Russian one was too small. Two priests were NZ Serbian Orthodox, one was Transylvanian (and no, he wasn’t a sweet little transvestite. he was a spy) and Dmitri R*ss who couldn’t find any bishop loony enough to ordain him came in partway through all togged up in clerical robes and carrying a huge service book, He then walked around the outside of the church (outside of the inside) as if he was part of the ceremony (you couldn’t make this up) and buggered off before the end.

          Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  November 1, 2018

          I can never remember where the Copts come in.

          Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  November 1, 2018

      Multicultural Aotearoa was unmandated and wanted by neither Maori or non-Maori.

      Reply
  8. Alan Wilkinson

     /  October 31, 2018

    Parliament is full of fantasists so whatever they pretend to believe in leaves me cold.

    Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  October 31, 2018

      And realists would do what Alan …?

      Reply
    • Gezza

       /  October 31, 2018

      So what form of government would be better then, Al? In your opinion.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  November 1, 2018

        The only thing wrong with our form of government is the voters, G. Better education would fix it. You will always get fantasists in Parliament because they are best at selling voters their dreams. So ignore what they pretend to believe and watch what they do like a hawk.

        Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  November 1, 2018

        Government gets high jacked by radicals.

        Reply
  9. Instead of a prayer some kind of simple Mission Statement for the day could be made covering aspects as – “with the wishes of the majority of New Zealanders foremost in mind” or “due diligence” etc . Saying the day’s statement could be taken in turns around all politicians. It could be an original statement or a standard statement as the sayer of the day wished.

    Reply
    • PDB

       /  October 31, 2018

      Maybe instead of a prayer they could just apologise in advance each day for being about to act like 6 years olds in a playground rather than adults?

      Reply
    • Gezza

       /  October 31, 2018

      Something like the 10 Main Rules of Good Behaviour could maybe be flash up on a screen and a minute be given to read them again every day – and all then all MPs collectively agree to observe them before the day’s business starts maybe

      Or maybe just what you’re suggesting but in the form of a brief summary of what their purpose is in being there and what the government is supposed to do, with an affirmation of understanding at the end – like Amen?

      It will take a year to get to an agreed first draft probably but it’d be a start.

      Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  November 1, 2018

      Nice one teoranga … how about “International Best Practice” too?

      Reply
  1. Protest over Parliamentary prayer — Your NZ – NZ Conservative Coalition

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