Media watch – Wednesday

28 November 2018

MediaWatch

Media Watch is a focus on New Zealand media, blogs and social media. You can post any items of interested related to media.

A primary aim here is to hold media to account in the political arena. A credible and questioning media is an essential part of a healthy democracy.

A general guideline – post opinion on or excerpts from and links to blog posts or comments of interest, whether they are praise, criticism, pointing out issues or sharing useful information.

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41 Comments

  1. Mother

     /  November 28, 2018

    The churches are hugely into sexual, emotional and psychological abuse. People talk about ‘Catholic Guilt’ (where innocents carry shame all their lives). The PCANZ (Presbyterians) are arguably worse. All the churches’ nonsense go under reported by media. This is a scourge in NZ. Some might think that we’d be better off without the churches. I believe that we need Church more than ever. (Real Church). The churches are useless because they model their fellowships on Politics. At that rate, problems that should be dealt with get jumbled up with human pride. It happens every time, because of Politics. Church is supposed to be different. The PCANZ is particularly dreadful.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  November 28, 2018

      The churches cannot long-term be any use when what they preach is so clearly contradiction, myth. lies and nonsense – and it is too easy to work that out (unless one is ignorant, credulous, and stupid, or too desperate for hope of a better hereafter than a now, or too desperate to see departed loved ones again, or fearful of hell & too heavily indoctrinated to ignore the preachers’ desperate reinterpretations of it as science has made so much of its nonsense obvious – & just read the Bible, or the Quran, cover to cover, research their origins, and think rationally).

      Reply
      • Mother

         /  November 28, 2018

        Hey Gezza, I wrote about the Politics of the ‘churches’. You have written about the hypocritical teaching and the difficulties with understanding scripture. And I think you implied that people who love Church are fools. The Bible says the opposite – ‘in his heart, a fool says there is no God.’ My comment was about abuse in the churches because of their politics. Actually, Church is supposed to be above and separate to human politics.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  November 28, 2018

          I think you’re taking the piss. Reality should be about truth.

          Reply
          • Mother

             /  November 28, 2018

            My comment was about abuse in the ‘churches’ and how politics perpetuates it. What are you talking about?
            Abuse is a grave reality.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  November 28, 2018

              I believe that we need Church more than ever. (Real Church)
              What do you mean by “Real Church”?

              The grave is reality.

            • Mother

               /  November 28, 2018

              No worries Gezza. I’m not a Bible teacher, and it was you who went off tangent. If Gezza and Griff wish to uphold the integrity of the free speech that is allowed in this blog, they should be real and sensible. Abuse in the churches is no joke. By going off on disrespectful tangents, you cut off free speech. How do you expect victims to be free to speak up if you are disrespectful and silly?

            • Gezza

               /  November 28, 2018

              There is nothing disrespectful about my comments concerning the churches. They are factual matters and honest opinion. And I am happy to await your further development.

        • Griff.

           /  November 28, 2018

          The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.
          Psalm 14:1

          Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”
          Psalm 137:9

          You take this abdominal book as a guide to life?

          Reply
          • Mother

             /  November 28, 2018

            Griff, you’re quoting out of context. Gezza, you make me laugh (seriously, I’m not taking the piss). Yes I believe in Church, the real one. This comment place is not the appropriate place to fully explain what I mean. Sorry. But please note, my original comment was about abuse and ‘church’ politics. Evil. Sad, because it puts people off real Church!

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  November 28, 2018

              Let’s not get it into that then. It gets to be a long, tedious business when I have to educate Bible believers. Just tell me what denomination or group you belong to for now and we can leave it that.

              As regards abuse by Churches and cover ups via the internal politics it’ll happen within any group, believers and non-believers. Always has. Even real churches have people who can convince themselves we are all sinners and that therefore belief and repentance can absolve them of any sin.

            • Griff.

               /  November 28, 2018

              Gezza, you make me laugh (seriously, I’m not taking the piss).

              Do try to stay in character mother …….

            • Mother

               /  November 28, 2018

              Apologies for jumbling up the blog sequence. Gezza and Griff, I commented on the trouble with abuse in the churches, caused by politics (which has no place in Church) and you each jived off to take the mickey out of me. I repeat, abuse in the churches is no joke. It is an issue of serious generational harm in every community. It was obvious what I was posting about. If you want to make fun of me, I don’t care. What I genuinely care about is community welfare, including everybody’s right of free speech, within a respectful environment preferably. Disrespect me as much as you like and change the subject if you want to. It will only alert others to consider that you may be part of the problem. Furthermore, this blog site appears to be mostly respectful and unbiased, allowing for various opinions and expressions of personal experience. Perhaps it will broaden the readership if I persevere. The issue I raise is that abuse/harassment is rampant in the churches because of politics. Politics has no place in the Church. Surely this statement is of interest to people who follow politics. Many people have personal experience with church, including those who are interested in politics. Those who don’t like Church may still be interested in my opinion, simply because I say that politics has no place in Church. None. Yet I love Church and believe that our country needs Church like never before, not least because of abuse in the churches.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  November 28, 2018

              @Mother, churches of all kinds are founded on politics and power. You can never divorce them. If you take out the politics and power you don’t have a church any longer.

  2. robertguyton

     /  November 28, 2018

    “The document had been set for release in December of 2016. It was so far advanced a press release had been drafted.

    The delay was political – the Government knew that stricter planning guidelines would hurt developers, and possibly affect property prices. Although councils were regularly asking for the guidance to be released, it took a change of government for that to happen. It was ultimately unveiled last December by the new coalition government, a year to the day after it was ready to publish.”

    “https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/11/beach-road/”

    Reply
  3. Missy

     /  November 28, 2018

    Reply
  4. I think it is common for fundraising to fleece those trying to raise the money. Like school fundraising, fairs, raffles, selling cheese rolls and chocolate, where parents largely pay one way or another.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  November 28, 2018

      Raffle drawn at Oamaru Police Station?

      Reply
      • Griff.

         /  November 28, 2018

        Only caucus members brought the tickets.
        Because who else would Give to national besides Chinese buying favor and seats?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  November 28, 2018

          I believe the police are still looking in to that?

          Reply
        • High Flying Duck

           /  November 28, 2018

          Lucky we have a new Government who are standing up strongly to the Chinese and their intimidation of an academic.
          Chinese are not averse to donating to Labour either by my recollection.
          Not a National Party issue.

          Reply
          • Griff.

             /  November 28, 2018

            Not just a national party issue.
            Except of course selling seats and having a Chinese spy in the party is a National party feature.

            Reply
    • Mother

       /  November 28, 2018

      Yes, it’s easier to just make a donation if you want to. On the other hand, making cheese rolls with friends can be fun. As for selling them? Again, it’s easier to buy them yourself, unless you’re a natural born salesman.

      Reply
  5. Missy

     /  November 28, 2018

    Reply
  6. Reply
  7. High Flying Duck

     /  November 28, 2018

    Scary thoughts from Shamubeel:

    Reply
  8. Mother

     /  November 28, 2018

    Alan, how can you be so sure? Do you have data which proves that a church without power and politics is an impossibility? Are you aware of studies within the social sciences which indicate that you are correct? I have a model which I think could prove you wrong. I just need an opportunity/a lucky break. It would be great if in fifty years’ time, there were complete and careful studies in NZ which either prove or disprove your statement.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  November 28, 2018

      I think the Quakers came nearest to your ideal, Mother, but even they probably represent a political empowering organisation designed to defend its members from the other religions.

      Reply
      • Mother

         /  November 28, 2018

        Alan, you don’t know me, and you don’t know my ideals. Why mention the Quakers, defending members against other religions and such like? Presumptions are a waste of time. I would share those details if they were important to my initial comment. Church lives on as a healthy body free from politics. She will never die. As for my ideal, I have already stated it. Church. The churches are abusive and very strange. They do massive harm.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  November 28, 2018

          Mother, I know what you said – that a church not based on politics and power is possible. To my knowledge the Quakers (Society of Friends) came closest to that ideal. I’m not presuming anything, least of all about you. I am debating your challenge to my assertion that all churches are based on politics and power. So far you haven’t provided any counter example to refute my assertion.

          Reply
          • Mother

             /  November 28, 2018

            I said I believe I have a good model for Christian fellowship worked out, but I need my lucky break, or to come across somebody else who is in a fellowship which is a part of Church, therefore I could join that fellowship. I think that it’s time for another Reformation. The one 500 years ago has harshness in it’s foundation. Hence, my opening comment said that PCANZ is worse than Catholicism regarding abuse. I suppose Gezza has noticed that I write of church and Church. I belong to Church, and I am fed up with abuse and harassment in the churches. Church truly does function free from politics. Fellowships within Church function well because they are built on a strong and pure foundation. Perhaps ‘church’ as we know it will die. Church will live on. Church is the government’s best friend, totally separate to government in essence but only doing good in community, free from politics. If I had a ‘denomination’ I would tell you what it is. I’ve been a Christian since I was 12 and my ‘denomination’ never reckoned with me until grave troubles started five years ago, the culmination of a lifetime of oppression. My opening comment really didn’t warrant a discussion about the credibility of my believing stance. Free speech with respect is the way to go. I’m deeply concerned about abuse in the churches, including indoctrination and paganism. I believe in Church. There is no abuse with mid to longterm consequence to be found there. Freedom is found there. Church is unique.

            Reply
  9. Reply
  10. Mother

     /  November 28, 2018

    Alan, you don’t know me, and you don’t know my ideals. Why mention the Quakers, defending members against other religions and such like? Presumptions are a waste of time. I would share those details if they were important to my initial comment. Church lives on as a healthy body free from politics. She will never die. As for my ideal, I have already stated it. Church. The churches are abusive and very strange. They do massive harm.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  November 28, 2018

      What do you mean by “Church”?

      Reply
    • Gezza

       /  November 29, 2018

      From your comment to Alan above:

      My opening comment really didn’t warrant a discussion about the credibility of my believing stance.
      I’m sorry, but it does.

      Free speech with respect is the way to go.
      Happy to give that a go. As long as we don’t run into problems with you disrespecting non-believers, but covering up with respectful-sounding language.

      I’m deeply concerned about abuse in the churches, including indoctrination and paganism. I believe in Church. There is no abuse with mid to long term consequence to be found there.
      Quite possibly, but it’s unlikely, and the thing is, depending on what your definition of abuse is you might never know. A further issue is that to many, including me, indoctrinating children & people with little education in sciences and alternatives with notions of heaven and particularly everlasting punishment in hell and other irrational beliefs for which there absolutely no empirical evidence can be considered a form child abuse. If adults are fully informed and make their own choice to interpret the way the their mind works to indicate communication with Jaweh, God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit, or Allah – instead of some other force or entity, that is ok.

      Freedom is found there. Church is unique.
      No, I don’t think it is. In my experience of Christians The Salvation Army comes close to what you’re talking about in that it has a structure & community but speaking to individuals about their beliefs they have no dogma and are always gentle Christians.

      The local Anglican church is a similar community and I have attended discussion groups. That church community is also lacking in dogma but it depends to some extent on the pastor. The woman pastor I dealt with most frequently was a science graduate.

      The Catholic Church directly opposite (I was raised a Catholic) is a shocker. I still can’t believe the contrast in services. They are appalling examples of boring, mechanical, lecturing, disconnected priests and hierarchies, and almost now-meaningless ritual, and the Catholic dogma is unbelievably credulous stuff.

      The local Unity Church also seems to be what you attempt to elucidate above. It has a group of people who seem to voluntarily look after the administration of the church but no dogma,, no particular form of service that I can see, any and everyone with any form of Christian belief is welcome and members of this church I have spoken to simply share their thoughts at services loosely organised on Sundays or at any events or prayer meetings or discussions hosted by any member who wants to.

      Reply
      • Mother

         /  November 29, 2018

        Some of those fellowships sound positive.
        I knew you were raised a Catholic by the way you first responded in this thread.
        I presumed that the way a writer starts out in the first comment was a guideline as to what is on the tables. Isn’t it called trolling when somebody repeatedly sabotages the original intent? I’m new at this.
        I would be interested in all sorts of off shoots with comments, except rudeness. I love listening to what others think and hearing about their experiences and their opinions. You have been rude to me Gezza because of airing your presumptions about me as a person who simply stated that abuse in the churches is a big problem. Perhaps PG might consider a forum for religious views. I probably wouldn’t take part. I prefer face to face for those discussions.
        Church is unique Gezza and is the antidote for our problem with abuse. You say, ‘no, I don’t think it is.’ Clearly this comes from your experience. I say, ‘yes it is’ and this comes from my experience too. I have been interested in the churches all my life. Abuse, indoctrination, harassment, harming children’s minds….it’s crazy and strange. Church is not like that at all. I have an idea/programme ready to trial. As I said, this is about another reformation in recognition that the one 500 years ago encouraged the planting of fellowships with harshness in their foundations.
        Thank you for talking with me gentlemen. It’s been an interesting first experience for me. I’m finished that now. I was waiting to see if anyone else would come out about church abuse on Your NZ. Because of your responses, I branched out with mine (because I know first hand that responses like you gave shut down people who might otherwise speak up about the topic I raised.) I didn’t set out to share about my opinion regarding Church. I would not have wanted to annoy Gezza.
        I think that NZ needs Church like never before. If we don’t get a grip on this fact, we will lose our freedom, and the abuse already suffered within the churches will especially grow rampant. Indoctrination of the masses will become entrenched. NZ society needs Church.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  November 29, 2018

          NZ society needs Church.

          No it doesn’t. Christianity involves many false beliefs that play upon the fact people don’t know how the universe began and lack of understanding of many other things where “I don’t know” is the correct answer and this need not be a concern. There are many other possible explanations for such matters than those found in the Bible. I have my own individual “spritual” experiences & occasional practices that work for me.

          If you are genuine and want to engage on this matter in any useful way here you need to be able to handle criticism because I think your beliefs are wrong & I will happily debate those with you and have you attempt to convince me otherwise. Despite what you might think my opinions on anything while sometimes vehemently expressed are never see in stone and always subject to change on better evidence or direct experience and personal analysis. I am open on the possiblity of a creator, and on its properties.

          All you need to do is to write a guest post and email it to PG. He will happily post it and that can be commented on at any time. All you have to do is bookmark the link or ask him to include it in the link for Top Posts so it is easily and quickly accessible.

          There are probably some values you associate with your Christian beliefs. It may be that those values are things I and others agree with and think are essential for society to function the way many Christians believe it should.

          If you want to set out what your beliefs are – in the context of those values you think are espoused, who you think your God is and what properties it possesses (e.g it is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and always good – or whatever) and what you do and don’t believe in the Bible – those are all topics I find interesting and worthy of debate based on research and direct experience.

          If you are too afraid to have your beliefs challenged or that you are unable to convince others they should follow them also, you have no hope of achieving what you hope for. it is up to you to get the courage you need from somewhere.

          Reply

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