‘Men’ have a collective problem with violence, abuse…

‘Men’ have a collective problem with violence, abuse, murder, rape, misogyny – and should do more collectively to address these problems and the ingrained cultures that contribute to the problems.

Obviously not all men are violent, not all men are thugs or rapists or murderers. It can be quite confronting to be held responsible as a gender for individual crimes, rapes, murders, assaults. We are not all responsible for specific crimes. But we are all responsible for the social culture in which they occur all too frequently.

A number of women have been expressing themselves in reaction to the shocking murder of English backpacker Grace Millane. There has been a lot of emotion, and I think that in the heat of the moment some things that have been said maybe be a bit over the top, off the mark and unfair.

But I think we should listen, learn, and resolve to do more to stand up to the debilitating and destructive behaviours that cause so much grief and anger.

WARNING: the following may put some male noses out of joint. But I think that men should read, digest, and consider carefully what is being expressed.

Women, many women, have to deal with problems that most men have to deal with, and that most men are probably largely unaware of.

Kirsty Johnston: I’m angry about Grace Millane’s murder after a year reporting on rape

I was angry before Grace Millane’s death and I’m seething now.

In the days following Grace’s death, I tried to explain this feeling to the men in my life, to tell them why many women felt so upset by her killing.

“It could have been any of us,” I said. “It is a reminder that we aren’t yet equal. She was just a kid. She was just trying to live her life.”

I watched them grapple with this idea, to try not to get defensive. I wondered how it must feel to be on the other end, to be told that you have the power to be frightening. I felt sorry for them, these men who I love. Right now, however, I’m too tired to make it okay for them. It’s been a long year. I’m tired of explaining. I’m tired of feeling second-class. And I’m tired of being angry. It’s a burden none of us asked for.

I have spent most of 2018 writing about rape. It wasn’t planned. It began with a single story about unresolved sexual assault cases handled by the police, and grew, and grew.

After every article, more women came forward to talk to me about sexual violence and their experience with the justice system. For a while, I became part reporter, part counsellor. I didn’t mind. Journalism is as much in the listening as the telling. But unlike with previous projects, this time the stories stayed with me, waking me at night, leaving a deep aching in my chest around my heart. Sometimes, I felt sick, my throat constricted. Worst was when I felt the deep chill of recognition settle in my bones.

It was deeply confronting to realise these women’s long-held secrets were so similar to my own. As I listened to them, memories long-repressed began to bubble to the surface. Small things, like unwanted touches or sexist comments. Bigger things, like sexual coercion or a lack of consent. Other things. Cowering in corners.

With the lid lifted, it felt like I was viewing the world through a new lens. Everywhere I looked was rape culture, the dominance of the patriarchy, ingrained misogyny. Once you see, I said to one victim, you can’t unsee. She said, “I wish I could. I don’t want to be this person.” Same, I said. It’s exhausting. As the year went on my heartache shifted to anger. In June, after a nasty incident at a bar, I wrote a furious column about male entitlement, begging men to think about their behaviour. In response, I got emails threatening rape. My anger twisted to despair.

The only thing that saved me was the kindness of other women.

Wouldn’t it be good if the kindness of men also helped saved people from angst, saved people from violence and abuse, saved people’s lives?

It can, and does. But not enough.

I think that men as a group need to listen more, learn more about the problems they are being linked to and are a part of.

‘Men’ cannot be held responsible for individuals, for individual murders, for individual rapes, for individual assaults, for individual families battered and scarred by violence.

But as a significant segment of a society that is too often violent and dysfunctional I think men have a collective responsibility to stand up and confront the issues more and better.

Many men lead non-violent lives, many men are members of decent families and decent communities. But our society as a whole has a pervading sickness, not just a sickness of violent behaviour, of abusive behaviour, but a sickness of attitudes and behaviours that disrespect, demean, destroy.

This is too prevalent in family and social situations. It is also too prevalent in politics. It is far too prevalent in online forums, social media – as a society we haven’t adapted well to technological changes. Yet.

When it comes down to it we don’t care about women enough. Most men do not know what it is to be afraid, to realise if your worst fear comes true, there is nothing you can do.

We as men can imagine what this may be like but will probably never understand how it feels.

I can’t speak for women, but I can try to understand their angst and anger better.

And as a man I should do more to make our society less violent, better. I think this will benefit from collective action from men.

I admit that some of what I have read lately, including from Kirsty Johnston, got my hackles up a bit, made me feel indignant, dumped on. Maybe that’s in part because I know, I feel, that men are not doing enough to address male problems in our society. Society will only change for the better if we change – change our attitudes, change our behaviours, and change what we do (from little to more) to confront a beast of a problem.

 

119 Comments

  1. Gezza

     /  14th December 2018

    Many men lead non-violent lives, many men are members of decent families and decent communities.
    Judging from my own experience, I feel that should say most men. But my experience, and the men I know and have known, may not be typical of some parts of society. I’ve certainly known a couple of serial bonkers quite well, but both were musos and so far as I could see they were charming, their one night stands threw themselves at them, & they tended to keep it quiet, not boast about their prowess.

    But our society as a whole has a pervading sickness, not just a sickness of violent behaviour, of abusive behaviour, but a sickness of attitudes and behaviours that disrespect, demean, destroy.
    It doesn’t help that our society sometimes seems awash with sexuality & it’s a bit of a minefield knowing what to do or say when trying to get a date for many, I suspect.

    And as a man I should do more to make our society less violent, better. I think this will benefit from collective action from men.
    What did you have in mind exactly?

    • “Judging from my own experience, I feel that should say most men. But my experience, and the men I know and have known, may not be typical of some parts of society.”

      Same for me. But the ‘some parts of society’ that are violent etc are significant parts of society, and they can have a huge impact on society. If we sit safely in our silos we may be lucky to survive unscathed, and our daughters and granddaughters may be lucky to survive unscathed when they venture into the world outside our silos, but that may be what Mr Millane and Mr Elliot and many other fathers and grandfathers thought.

      “What did you have in mind exactly?”

      I have some ideas but am pondering, looking and listening.

      An immediate consideration is – it’s a busy time of year, people are winding down from work and are busy for Christmas, should I leave it until after the holiday period? But Christmas is a high stress time, and a violent time for many people.

      • Gezza

         /  14th December 2018

        I was thinking of the “It’s not ok” tv ads that were run and still are run from time to time – they don’t seem to have had any impact. A feature of those ads was the use of men of all ages and ethnic & apparent socio-economic backgrounds, all saying the same thing, but I think teaching men not to be violent or to disrespect women starts at home.

        Our father would’ve knocked our blocks off it we’d disrespected women or our kid sister – dad’s girl. “You NEVER hit a girl” was drummed into us from the time she was born.

        Maybe there has to be a concerted campaign across all elements of society including especially the schools – but it’s also probably important to remember assholes like this murderer probably is have existed throughout human history and I can’t see how we’ll ever rid ourselves of it totally.

        Gang culture seems rife with it; rugby culture is often boorish and probably contributes to the disrespecting of women. And teenage yobs have been around since my boyhood & they’re disrespectful too – but curiously, getting girls doesn’t seem to be a problem. Some are attracted to these yobs individually or for the thrills & excitement of hooning around in cars.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  14th December 2018

          To describe a 22 year old graduate as ‘just a kid’ is extremely patronising. If a man had said it, he would be criticised, quite rightly.

  2. artcroft

     /  14th December 2018

    Many muslims lead non-violent lives, many muslims are members of decent families and decent communities. But muslim society as a whole has a pervading sickness, not just a sickness of violent behaviour, of abusive behaviour, but a sickness of attitudes and behaviours that disrespect, demean, destroy.

    ?

    • Missy

       /  14th December 2018

      Great hijack artcroft. Deflect what is being discussed to something unrelated. Do you think so little of the issues women face that you will ignore them to push your own agenda?

    • david in aus

       /  14th December 2018

      There is a difference between Islamists and Muslims. Do not conflate the two.

  3. Gerrit

     /  14th December 2018

    Perhaps a good start would be for women to acknowledge good men in our society instead of constant put downs and especially that toxic masculinity equals all masculinity. .

    Have commented previously on the women’s lib statement that “men are to women what bicycles are to fish”. In other words men are worthless to women.

    Should start in schools where boys should be encouraged to develop their masculine traits

    Worth a read in full;

    “Boys, though, have been left behind. No commensurate movement has emerged to help them navigate toward a full expression of their gender. It’s no longer enough to “be a man” — we no longer even know what that means.”

    • “Perhaps a good start would be for women to acknowledge good men in our society…”

      That happens.

      “…instead of constant put downs and especially that toxic masculinity equals all masculinity”.

      That also happens from what is probably a small minority of women. But we should try to understand why some women feel that way and express themselves that way – and there’s a golod chance that they have had experiences with something other than “good men in our society”.

      • Gezza

         /  14th December 2018

        I agree that many boys and young men are totally confused about how they are supposed to behave and feel as men nowadays. It’s something Celia Lashley commented on frequently decades back when she was visiting prisons – she reckoned a lot of it was down to things like mothers taking over – it had become fashionable – and saying to the fathers “:Look, just get out of the way, you’re useless at talking with him, let me handle it” and dads were just going “why bother, maybe she’s right”.

        This lack of fathering and too much mothering when puberty kicks in is getting quite a lot of mention by popular online psychologists like Jordan Peterson, and striking chords with young men who have no idea how to behave or be responsible young men.

        • MaureenW

           /  14th December 2018

          I read a couple of “raising boys” books, one of which was Celia Lashley’s. The point that was made that resonated with me was for mothers to back right off, from about the age of 10 to 12 -and to make boys responsible for doing their own stuff. Making lunches, doing their washing, changing their beds etc. I followed that advice, it resonated with me because it wasn’t what I believe I would have naturally done otherwise.

  4. Gezza

     /  14th December 2018

    I have to say, though, I am aware of how vulnerable women a lot of women feel on their own in all sorts of situations. Tawa is flat and I’ve often found myself driving home at night or in the evening and seen fit young women out jogging, getting fit or training for their sport, and I nearly always find myself thinking “I really don’t like seeing you out running on your own, at this time of day, when there aren’t a lot of people around, young lady. If there’s anyone around here that’s got rape on their mind, you are an easy target – there are heaps of places you could get dragged off the street by some arsehole.”

    And then I feel guilty for even thinking that; because some women I’ve known would criticise me for it – they seem to think even having thought that, or saying that, makes you somehow responsible for men who do behave like that.

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  14th December 2018

      I don’t think that it makes you responsible at all. The fact is that very few women are dragged off, and unless we all live in purdah, we have to be alone at some point. There is also a good chance that those women know some form of self-defense.

      A man could be dragged off and mugged.

      I think that one has to take reasonable precautions but not live in a state of siege where one sees danger everywhere.

      • Gezza

         /  14th December 2018

        I know, and of course I can see that point of view too. Many of us men find ourselves in situations from time to time where we go: “Hmm … I don’t like the look of those dudes in hoodies hanging around there doing (whatever), Think I’ll just cross the street or go the other way, just to be on the safe side.”

        But it’s not often that that happens, and it’s not ordinarily something I’d ever feel, as a man, that I needed to even think about before I go out for a walk anywhere in the streets in the evening alone. Whereas I think even being kerb-crawled or chatted up or tooted or gestured at by a carload of yobs when one just wants to have a jog and go home is something many young women have to have a plan for.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  14th December 2018

          Being tooted at is nothing, as long as they do nothing else.

          I can’t imagine living in the paranoid state of siege that Missy seems to live in. I was stalked in the UK by someone who kept pace with me wherever I went; I went into a supermarket and he was there when I came out. In the end I sat on a wall and pretended to read. He hung around for a while, then sloped off. It was most unnerving, but I didn’t act as if every man I saw was going to do the same thing as I prefer not to live in a neurotic state of fear. That would be giving that pervert power over me, just as being in a state of terror every time I walked home would have been giving the Wellington kerb crawler power that he didn’t deserve.

          One can either live in a gibbering state of fear of everyone whom one doesn’t know, ignoring the fact that one is overwhelmingly more likely to be harmed by a partner or family member or one can use common sense.

          • Gezza

             /  14th December 2018

            There are two districts around here Kitty where I am very wary and watchful when I’m on foot, because these are the places where the thugs, dealers, taggerz and carjackers hang out.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  14th December 2018

              Exactly; common sense. One doesn’t hear of many carjackings in NZ, though.

              Bloody taggers. I would have no objection to having to sign for spray paint if they did, too.

              Tangent; One shopkeeper, rather than asking someone how old they were, would ask what year they were born…and see them trying to work it out, counting back from whatever age they’d been going to say they were.

              We once had a dealer in a respectable house in a middle-class street; it was obvious because people would drive up, one would go in and be back in a few minutes. They were caught, of course. They might as well have put a sign on the lawn. The disguise (?) of living in a middle-class suburban street was undone by the obvious stream of customers.

            • Gezza

               /  14th December 2018

              Carjacking – true, I meant car thieves, chop shop operators.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  14th December 2018

              I googled NZ carjackings, and there didn’t seem to be terribly many, not that that’s any comfort to the victims. It seemed as if some were on Google several times and it was impossible to find a number.

  5. Blazer

     /  14th December 2018

    violence is an integral part of life…

    ‘we will bomb you back to the…Stone Age’…

    take a look at kids cartoons.

    • That is a part of the problem – normalised violence is everywhere.

      • robertguyton

         /  14th December 2018

        Rugby, boxing, Christmas shopping…

        • Gezza

           /  14th December 2018

          You just reminded me that I never ever went again to a sale at Lewis’s after agreeing to go down to the junction & pick up some cafe curtains at a bargain price for a friend of my late wife’s. Apart from me, it was all women there and I got there too late to find any cafe curtains. I had no idea you had to be there to rush the door as soon as they opened. But I reckon there were ladies there who would happily injure or disable another one going for the same last remaining linens, curtains, cushy cushions or whatever.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  14th December 2018

            These people have never heard of online shopping, from the sound of it.

            Briscoes and the Warehouse have $5 delivery and Briscoes has free click and collect. The Warehouse has $1 delivery with an app. Spotlight does online, too, and it’s well worth it not to have to stooge in although their delivery is higher.

            Pete, did you see the item on the news where a cricket player was hit in the balls and doubled over…it was played over and over and treated as a huge joke. Had a woman been hurt as badly as that, I can’t imagine it being treated as a joke.

        • Trevors_elbow

           /  14th December 2018

          Greens protesting arms makers conferences… your point is what? Still trolling Bobby G….

      • PartisanZ

         /  14th December 2018

        Take a look at general audience or R-rated TV shows and films as well. They are so close to all based on conflict for it to be universal and the conflict, very often violent itself, is inevitably resolved by violence ….

        @PG – “That is a part of the problem – normalised violence is everywhere.”

        Normalized violence is everywhere …. Everywhere there’s money.

        • Gezza

           /  14th December 2018

          It’s everywhere there’s not a lot of money too.

          • PartisanZ

             /  14th December 2018

            Which is generally an attempt to …. what?

            Get money … Right?

            • Gezza

               /  14th December 2018

              No it’s not. It’s just to get power or compliance by force or the threat of it. Men don’t beat up other men for money generally. Nor do they threaten and beat up women for money. It’s human nature at its most basic from the most basic of human great apes.

            • PartisanZ

               /  14th December 2018

              Yes … I see what you mean.

              I guess what I meant was that normalized violence is essential to ‘the system’ of our ‘civilization’ …

              And one of the primary motivational component’s of that system is money …

              I don’t go along with the Great Apes theorem …

              I don’t feel like a Great Ape, do you?

            • Gezza

               /  14th December 2018

              I don’t feel like a Great Ape, do you?

              At times yes. I recently nearly got into a fist fight because someone threatened me when I told him he was a Marama’s word for asking ma where her charity was and refusing to let her have a carpark when they’d blocked them off.

              I was surprised at how quickly I went into snarling mode. If he’d swung at me I’d have gone for him & worried about the consequences later. I’ll avoid a fight if I can. But I won’t back down from a fight with someone attempting to bully me who I reckon I can take. If they throw the first punch or shove I’ll be there, in their face.

            • Gezza

               /  14th December 2018

              And I got the car park !

              Because two good men stepped in & calmed us down and we shook hands and parted on good terms.

  6. robertguyton

     /  14th December 2018

    Pete George wrote:
    “I admit that some of what I have read lately, including from Kirsty Johnston, got my hackles up a bit, made me feel indignant, dumped on.”
    Had you stuck with that position and written accordingly, you’d have got a lot of support from a significant chunk of the blogging community, especially those who frequent Kiwiblog and Whaleoilbeefhooked, along with some here, I suspect. As it is, those commenters will be labeling you “woke”, “snowflake”, “commie” or whatever.

    • Gezza

       /  14th December 2018

      Yes, but on the other hand had you just stuck to the topic instead of hypocritically picking at PG as usual, other commenters and readers wouldn’t have thought – “there robert goes again, just being a disruptive, nasty prick”.

      • robertguyton

         /  14th December 2018

        Pete wrote:
        “This is too prevalent in family and social situations. It is also too prevalent in politics. It is far too prevalent in online forums, social media – as a society we haven’t adapted well to technological changes. Yet.”
        I’ve backed his claim, pointing at blogs well known for the “prevalence” Pete described.
        How is that not the topic???

        • Gezza

           /  14th December 2018

          I misread what you wrote. I thought you meant commenters here. I apologise robert. I’ll add an extra two minutes to the time I can devote to you today.

        • robertguyton

           /  14th December 2018

          No need for an apology, Gazza, your accusations are usually correct. In any case, I believe there are some commenters here who also comment on those other blogs mentioned. Please note, I’m not saying they would have used those labels to describe Pete. In any case, Pete transcended his initial thinking, moving into what I consider a better position, one that, as I said, would put him into the firing-line on some blogs.
          Re the two extra minutes, please put them to better use (you’re beginning to sound like Trevor Mallard).

          • Gezza

             /  14th December 2018

            I am NOT.

            I’ve taken two comments off you and given them to PG for that.

      • Trevors_elbow

         /  14th December 2018

        Shot! Laird of North Wellington….

    • robertguyton

       /  14th December 2018

      Gazza – when Pete wrote:
      ““I admit that some of what I have read lately, including from Kirsty Johnston, got my hackles up a bit, made me feel indignant, dumped on.”
      you would have been incensed had I replied:
      “Grow the fuck up. This isn’t about your feelings. I’m so sorry words make you feel uncomfortable – but I can assure you – being bashed in front of your kids or killed because you were out at night is worse than reading something on Facebook that makes you feel a wee bit unsure of yourself and your place in the world. Get over it.”
      as appeared in a comment below.
      https://yournz.org/2018/12/14/men-have-a-collective-problem-with-violence-abuse/#comment-332144
      Just saying’, for the sake of balance.

  7. Missy

     /  14th December 2018

    I just want to share something with you all, it is small, minor not even serious, and I am sure that one or two may think my reaction was essentially an overreaction, but I know most will understand the point I am trying to make.

    Not to long ago I was assaulted on the train home, it wasn’t sexual and it wasn’t serious, but it was a sustained and deliberate attack by a man who didn’t like me speaking out about his behaviour. Surrounding me were about 5 it 6 other men, they looked away seemingly uncomfortable, though they had to be aware of the assault as I kept verbalising to the attacker that he was assaulting me and asking him to stop. It was crowded and I couldn’t move.

    When I got off a man who had been sitting in a different row but had heard me came up to me and asked if I was okay. Until that point I was, my anger had kept me from feeling anything else, his concern and kindness broke me and I cried at that point as the shock settled in.

    The point is that assault has stayed with me and as a result I have modified my behaviour on the trains, and it makes me angry and sad that I have to. I can only imagine how more serious assaults affect how woman behave, knowing someone who has been attached or hearing about an attack can be enough to change behaviours slightly. Sometimes the behaviour change is conscious sometimes sub cinscious. I know I am more wary of men in the trains even though I know that 99% of them won’t hurt me, but to keep myself safe from that 1% I treat all men the same.

    • Thanks, that’s a simple but apt example of the problem many people, predominantly women, have to deal with.

      It would have been better if some of the men in close proximity had intervened when it was happening – but there is a chance that some of them feared what reaction that could provoke.

      I have been in a situation in a rural location at night where I intervened to an extent in what was at least male versus female verbal violence – a car stopped and drove off into a lakeside parking area with an obvious dispute taking place. I hope what I did was enough to diffuse things (they drove off), but I was very anxious about potential danger for me.

      • Missy

         /  14th December 2018

        That was a physical example, but there are so many non-physical things that happen to women that accumulate, everytime a man refuses to take no as an answer when asking for a phone number, when a man badgers a woman he doesn’t know to go out with him, everyday harassment that occurs. Each of these experiences that most women will experience daily, and if not every day then at least several times a week, will add up and affect her behaviours, but also how she perceives all men. We know it is not all men, but we also know that we can’t tell by looking which man will harass, attack, rape us, and as such it can become easier to keep yourself safe from all men, even the good ones.

        I completely understand why the men didn’t intervene Pete, people have been killed for less. I also I recognise that women have also a part to play in the non-intervention by men, as so many I know wouldn’t for fear of the retaliation from the woman, because a small minority of ultra extreme feminists have made men feel they are not welcome, that them showing concern is not welcome. It is a sad place we are at, but it is the reality and what we have to do is adapt our lives as best we can to minimise risk.

        I think both men and women have a part to play, men should speak up when women are being abused (as women should when men are being abused), they should let the men they know who may be doing it that it isn’t okay, and they need to tell their sons that it isn’t okay. On the flip side women need to let men know it is okay to speak up on our behalf if we are being attacked or harassed, and we need to tell our female friends and family members that it is okay sometimes for a man to step in on our behalf if we are in trouble, and we need to teach our daughters that a man showing manners and who is caring is not disrespecting her and is not sexist.

    • Gezza

       /  14th December 2018

      Yes, I can identify with that. Once upon a time an incident like that would have seen every other male within earshot tell that prick to leave you alone or they’d smack him one. Now, that doesn’t happen. Because in all likelihood they’re all thinking – that prick could knife me for all I know. And maybe nobody here would try and stop them – in case he did it to them. Men don’t act collectively and chivalrously like they used to.

      • Missy

         /  14th December 2018

        So true. And it is sad that we have lost that in society.

      • Gerrit

         /  14th December 2018

        Problem is like you said, every male would have given the offender a verbal serve with the intimidation of physical force if there was no cease and desist (or overcoming “what you gonna do about it” attitude).

        With the removal of the POTENTIAL of physical force element of the collective man power available to send the offender on his way (even a back handed slap is considered assault), words can and will be ignored. So why get involved?

        Chivalry went out the door a while back. Perhaps part of the teaching of young boys should be what level of chivalry is OK.

        Worth a read;

        https://metro.co.uk/2017/08/07/73-of-women-say-that-chivalry-is-dead-6835199/

        “That said, the women surveyed were pretty clear that while a little bit of chivalry is nice, they don’t want to be babied.”

        So who will teach the boys the boundaries of acceptable levels of chivalry?

        /

    • Blazer

       /  14th December 2018

      was this a physical assault?

      • Missy

         /  14th December 2018

        Yes.

        • Blazer

           /  14th December 2018

          did you report it?

          • Missy

             /  14th December 2018

            Yes. Is there a reason you are questioning me about it?

            • Missy

               /  14th December 2018

              To clarify Blazer, your questions sound like someone who doesn’t believe what I said, or at the least like a prospective defence lawyer.

              I am interested in why you questioned as to whether I reported the assault or not. Do you think I didn’t report it? Or do you think I made up the assault?

            • Blazer

               /  14th December 2018

              yes..it seems like an indictment on society ,given the very public nature of your incident.
              Something must have triggered it…maybe something you said or..did.

            • Missy

               /  14th December 2018

              Your comment “Something must have triggered it…maybe something you said or..did.” sounds very much like victim blaming, like you think I was at fault for what he did.

              It is interesting that the first thing you think about is that something triggered it, and it must have been something I said or did, like he isn’t fully responsible for his behaviour. It is that attitude that makes it worse for women who are the victims of attacks, that many people immediately decide the woman did or said something to make the man attack her – whether verbally or physically, it is a form of re-attacking the victim and all to common when women are the victims. We have seen it with Grace Millane with many people suggesting she shouldn’t have been travelling alone, shouldn’t have gone on a date alone with a man she didn’t know or that she shouldn’t use Tinder.

              However, in this case the trigger was me calling him out on his behaviour, I asked him to amend one part of his behaviour, which was a little anti social for public transport, and he assaulted me for the 30 minute train ride. BUT because he did it in response to what I said to him DOES NOT make it my fault, and wondering if I did or said something to trigger it should not be the first thing that anyone thinks when they hear about it. He had no right to assault me, no matter what I said to him.

              All I can say is thank goodness the Constable I spoke to was less judgemental than you, he wasn’t as interested in what I had said to the guy who assaulted me, he wanted to know about his behaviour and what he did to me. The guy on the train was the one that broke the law and did something wrong not me.

            • Blazer

               /  14th December 2018

              would you ‘call ‘ someone out on their behaviour in the same circumstance…again?
              You come across as quite an adversarial woman.

            • Missy

               /  14th December 2018

              So you are suggesting it is my fault I got assaulted, because you think I am ‘adversarial’?

              To answer your question, I would think twice about it, but that is not how life should be. I should not have to fear being assaulted to speak up when someone else is behaving in an unacceptable manner.

              That I am wary around all men in public, that I don’t feel comfortable on public transport, not just because of this, but other smaller incidents involving men is not how I – or any woman should live. That there are men in the world like you who are more about putting the blame on the woman who is the victim, that there are men in the world that judge the woman, is also wrong. The man who assaulted me is the only one at fault, I did not physically assault him first, I didn’t touch him, I asked him politely to behave more appropriately on public transport and not in an anti social manner.

              Your comments to me are part of the problem in society, part of the reason many women fear walking down the street, or going about their daily lives. It is men like you that is why we as women have to constantly be on our guard, constantly second guess what we say and do, men like you constantly judge and criticise, and you give a pass to men who behave badly and attack us.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  14th December 2018

              There is another angle to this though, Missy. The fact is that given some obnoxious lout misbehaving most men will be more cautious about confronting him verbally than a woman simply because they are more likely to be assaulted (and even killed) in response than a woman.

            • Gezza

               /  14th December 2018

              Yes, but often that’s because you might be the only one – other men will stand around going “shit, what do I do”.

            • Gezza

               /  14th December 2018

              Judges and others tell you: leave it to the police – call the police. Well that’s no fucking use if by the time they arrive it’s a murder scene or an ambo job, is it?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  14th December 2018

              Given the amount of knife crime in London, I wouldn’t blame people for being cautious.

              Didn’t the train stop at any time ? I am assuming that it was the tube.

  8. B-Rad

     /  14th December 2018

    I believe that is a issue more to do with society today.

    Men who abuse women and or attack women are not born to do this. They are created by society.

    Most men are good, so how does this happen? is it that 50% of children grow up in one parent families? and there is no Male role models to teach boys how to respect other people, or is it what we see in the media, on TV and in movies.
    Is it the demise of religion in the western world? Is it that we have become to liberal and we need to move to a more conservative world?

    I live in a bubble, the people I associate with are all good law abiding people, how can I affect change? I think Society needs to change and they only influencers that can do that are in the media, on tv and in the movies.

  9. Blazer

     /  14th December 2018

    Look at Cardinal Pell representing the Catholic church with millions of devoted followers…found guilty of abuse and violence to young boys…wonderful world…beautiful…people.

    • MaureenW

       /  14th December 2018

      You’re not seriously suggesting that the Catholic Church is some kind of beacon for goodness? It is a haven for Pedophiles and thieves.

      • Blazer

         /  14th December 2018

        no I’m not….I’m talking about apathy to violence as regards the popularity of this sleazy,abusive doctrine of influence.

  10. Chuck Bird

     /  14th December 2018

    Some men are violent and so are some women. However, the violent men are highlighted much more.

    Mum jailed for abuse so severe her daughter, 12, had to re-learn how to eat

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12176690

  11. phantom snowflake

     /  14th December 2018

    Brilliant response by NZ blogger ‘Emily Writes’ to all the recent screeching of Not All Men! and other diversions. (Too long to post the whole article; about a 5 minute read.)

    Tired of the shit emails and DMs and comments I’m getting so here I’ll answer your crap in one go.

    Not all men are violent you’re being sexist
    If I came to you crying and said – my husband broke my jaw – and you said to me “Well, not all husbands do that – I didn’t break my wife’s jaw” do you think that would be an appropriate thing to say? What makes you immediately disregard that a man hurt someone? Why can’t you express horror for violence without making it about yourself? Why can’t you say – That’s appalling, here let me help? Why is your immediate reaction to disregard what a woman has said? Don’t you think that’s messed up?

    If women were killing men at the rate men are killing women all women would be on curfew by now. I would be marching in the street. So why won’t you stand with women?

    You’re making men feel attacked
    Well, boo fucking hoo. Women are literally being attacked – being raped, murdered, beaten. And you’re upset because a columnist expressed anger and sadness over it? Grow the fuck up. This isn’t about your feelings. I’m so sorry words make you feel uncomfortable – but I can assure you – being bashed in front of your kids or killed because you were out at night is worse than reading something on Facebook that makes you feel a wee bit unsure of yourself and your place in the world. Get over it.
    http://www.emilywrites.co.nz/all-the-shitty-takes-in-one-go/

  12. sorethumb

     /  14th December 2018

    I remember taking a pee in the Square. In come a couple of yobbos. One boots a cublice door “Hey mannn” retorts an American accent. The other guy next to me is taller, younger lean with rippling muscle and evil menacing eyes. “How’s it going mate?” he asks with a threatening tone.

    I didn’t walk across to the police kiosk because nothing much had happened but those two were a couple of dangerous b*******s.

    That is the sort of scenario people must think of when they are tarred with one brush by these stupid leftists.

  13. sorethumb

     /  14th December 2018

    Not all men are violent you’re being sexist
    If I came to you crying and said – my husband broke my jaw – and you said to me “Well, not all husbands do that – I didn’t break my wife’s jaw” do you think that would be an appropriate thing to say?

    What makes you immediately disregard that a man hurt someone? Why can’t you express horror for violence without making it about yourself? Why can’t you say – That’s appalling, here let me help? Why is your immediate reaction to disregard what a woman has said? Don’t you think that’s messed up?
    ……….
    False dichotomy fallacy – Just plain silly.

    If women were killing men at the rate men are killing women all women would be on curfew by now. I would be marching in the street. So why won’t you stand with women?

    False dichotomy again. Women and men are different sexes.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  14th December 2018

      Men are killing men at a greater rate. This doesn’t concern you though.

  14. Missy

     /  14th December 2018

    Every Day on the London public transport network women are being harassed, physically assaulted, sexually assaulted, and are subject to unwanted sexual attention by men who don’t understand what no means, men who think that it is okay to rub their crotch against a woman because it is crowded, men who think that they are able to get away with it.

    When women report these crimes the police are very good at dealing with them, they don’t always get an arrest on the first attack, but the more that women report these crimes the bigger the picture they can build up on the men which will eventually lead to an arrest.

    The problem we have in society are men who will put the blame onto the woman, suggesting they did or said something to trigger the attack. This attitude does nothing to stop the behaviours, in fact it helps the men committing the crimes to justify it with thoughts like ‘this woman was adversarial’, ‘this woman called me out on anti social behaviour’, ‘this woman was standing really close to me so must have wanted it’.

    The men that make allowances for these attacks on women do not suggest the same when men are attacked. If a man was to call someone out on anti-social behaviour and got assaulted as a result, it would not be because he did or said something that triggered it, or that he was adversarial, it would be the attacker who would be held to account, not the victim.

    Until some men (and some women) stop judging women who are victims, stop assuming it was their behaviour that led to their attack, stop suggesting that the woman was somehow to blame society will never change.

    When men make comments like Blazer did to me above it undermines the seriousness of the experiences, it can work to increase anxiety, make the victim start second guessing and move onto self blame. A woman who is assaulted, harassed, raped, or attacked verbally should never be made to feel that she is somehow to blame, that it is her fault. Those who make comments like that are as bad as those that commit the crimes in my opinion.

    It is the serious attacks, as well as the cumulation of small incidences that seem to be nothing at the time, that leads to women feeling anxious, wary, and in some cases distrusting men. It is valid to feel as angry, hurt, confused, and upset about the smaller incidences as well as the serious attacks, it is not valid for someone like Blazer to suggest that it is the woman’s fault that it happened.

    • Gezza

       /  14th December 2018

      It is for him, unfortunately. He seems to be like that. But I agree with you, and I bet most men do too.

      • Missy

         /  14th December 2018

        All the men I know agree with me, and I know that there are more good men than not.

        Mostly men that blame women for being the victim, and suggest it was the woman’s actions that caused the attack, are insecure and feel threatened by women. They aren’t secure in who they are as men.

        • Blazer

           /  14th December 2018

          Your argument is disintegrating rapidly…’All the men I know agree with me’

          Your amateur psycho analysis is simplistic.

          • Missy

             /  14th December 2018

            I was responding to G’s comment that most men would agree with me. I took that to be in relation to the view that women should not be blamed for being the victim of attacks by men. I am sorry that you think that because all the men I know agree with that sentiment and don’t believe in victim blaming means my argument is disintegrating.

            I am lucky that I personally know only men who believe that a woman should be able to go about her life without fear, that a woman should not be blamed for being the victim, that a woman should feel safe in the train or bus and not be expected to remove herself from society because she may be attacked. I believe most men are like that.

            That you think that disintegrates my argument is sad and more of a reflection on you and the men you know than me or my argument.

            • Blazer

               /  14th December 2018

              ‘Every Day on the London public transport network women are being harassed, physically assaulted, sexually assaulted, and are subject to unwanted sexual attention by men who don’t understand what no means, men who think that it is okay to rub their crotch against a woman because it is crowded, men who think that they are able to get away with it.’

              and every day you choose to run the…gauntlet.

            • Missy

               /  14th December 2018

              That is a disgusting comment. So what women shouldn’t be safe travelling to work???

              I have to get to work, I do t choose to ‘run the gauntlet’ I have to, however those men that sexually assault and harass women do choose to treat women like objects.

              That you would even make a comment like that shows you have absolutely no respect for women. You, and men like you, are a HUGE part of the problem.

              When men enable other men to commit crimes against women and blame the women for being victims we will never have a society where women are safe.

              No man who respected women and cared about their well being would make a comment like that.

            • Blazer

               /  14th December 2018

              that was your comment.
              I notice you don’t offer any solutions to this ordeal of using public transport.
              If I knew there was a crocodile in the river that might eat me,I would find some way else to cross the…river.

            • Gezza

               /  14th December 2018

              @ Missy sometimes you just strike blokes who’re bitter & scathing about women generally because they’ve been through messy break ups and/or because women just tend to react negatively to or avoid them because the way they talk or behave they find offensive or overly suggestive or dominating or even threatening.

              This is something that has come to light in the more extreme cases recently with mass murders committed by misogynistic men collectively now known as incels.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

          • Trevors_elbow

             /  14th December 2018

            Blazer stop being an utter knob. Yes we all know you dont like Missy. But you are being half witted bullying prick…. again.

            • Blazer

               /  15th December 2018

              Missy can look after herself Trevour.
              She seems to have a misanthropian attitude.I neither like or dislike Missy…its her commentary I address.

    • MaureenW

       /  14th December 2018

      Agree entirely with your sentiments. Funny, we had a chat the other day about the number of women choosing not to marry – I suspect it’s connected – not specifically to violence but to self-fish, territorial behaviour that has outlived its usefulness.

      • Gezza

         /  14th December 2018

        It hasn’t outlived it’s usefulness, it’s become more prevalent. What’s disappeared is chivalry – because there’s been no demand for it & in fact I remember a decade of being abused for it.

        • Missy

           /  14th December 2018

          It is sad that chivalry has died.

          One man I have a lot of dealings with through work is very old fashioned and charming, he is also a flirt and old enough to be my grandfather! But his old fashioned manners have all the women in the office swooning, we don’t see enough of it.

          • Blazer

             /  14th December 2018

            Thank God for that…Queen Victoria is long gone.

            The women you work with cannot be vibrant,modern ,confident and happy in themselves if faux compliments and condescension blows their skirts…up.

            • Missy

               /  14th December 2018

              It is sad that you think a bit of old fashioned charm, flirtatious behaviour, and good manners is condescension and faux compliments. A man can be charming, flirtatious and have manners without being condescending.

              “The women you work with cannot be vibrant,modern ,confident and happy in themselves if faux compliments and condescension blows their skirts…up.”

              What disgusting imagery, but appropriate for this thread as it shows some of what women have to deal with daily from arrogant men. Using language like that is a form of harassment, this would be one of those dangerous situations you said women shouldn’t get into. See how prevalent it is? You are one of those men that women need to avoid so as not to put themselves into a position where they can be harassed.

              No wonder you have no empathy and are quick to blame a woman for being attacked. You are no better than the men in the train.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  14th December 2018

            You don’t seem to treat the man in the office with the wariness that you claim to feel towards all men.

      • Missy

         /  14th December 2018

        ti A degree you could be right, though I think it is more due to women’s increased wariness of men they aren’t taking the same opportunities to meet new men and find a lifelong partner. I think women are more likely to be suspicious if a strange man approached her in the street or a shop or something like that, where 20 or 30 years ago a chance encounter could have ended up with marriage.

    • Blazer

       /  14th December 2018

      You are over reacting and making assumptions.
      Neither present your argument in a good light.
      Given all the fears and dangers you describe ,one should be more circumspect…i.e mind your own business-safe….the world is as it is…imperfect,and not the way you think it..should,could be.

      • Missy

         /  14th December 2018

        So now I am overreacting as well as being adversarial.

        What assumptions did I make. That you don’t back that up with examples doesn’t give you much credibility in making that claim.

        I am aware of what the world is like, but it seems you don’t understand and more importantly don’t want to understand what it is like to be a woman in the world. Most of the things that women have to deal with can’t be avoided unless we wore a burka and stayed at home not showing our face. We have to go to work, walk down the street, go shopping. So please tell me how will being more circumspect stop woman experiencing the following:
        – Men crowding her in the train in her way to work
        – A man demanding her phone number when sitting in the bus, a man she hasn’t spoken to or even looked at
        – A man riding around her on the footpath in broad daylight blocking her way demanding she goes out with him
        – A man on the train putting his hands between her legs and grabbing her crotch
        – A man rubbing his crotch up against her backside on the train

        I could go in but it is late. All of these going’s have happened to either myself or woman I know, whilst minding our own business.

        It is these small cumulative things that do the most damage to a woman’s confidence and that increases her wariness of all men, add to that men like you saying she must have done and said something,and that she should mind her own business and things like this won’t happen. The only way to stop women being assaulted, verbally attacked, or harasssd is if they all stayed home.

        You are essentially women should not speak in public and remain covered, why should women have to be quiet? Why should we have to mind our own business? Why should we be the ones to take responsibility for what men say and do to us?

        • Blazer

           /  14th December 2018

          A very dark picture you paint.
          We must protect our women,but you should not place yourself in situations that are dangerous..as I said ,you have to deal with reality.

          • Missy

             /  14th December 2018

            How the hell can a woman know if a situation is dangerous when stepping into the train in the morning? Getting into a bus after work? Walking to the supermarket mid morning? Please enlighten me. A clue for you, we can’t. Strangely enough there is no way to tell if the man who boarded the train at the stop after yours is going to assault you, there is no way to avoid a man on a pushbike on the footpath circling you, there is no way to know if the man who hops on the bus and sits opposite you is going to verbally harass you. These men do not wear signs, they are ordinary men all ethnicities, all ages, all socio economic groups, all types of workers (both blue collar and white collar).

            The situations I described happened during daytime, during commutes to work walking to the supermarket. The only way not to be in a situation where anything can happen is to stay home and avoid all men. That women treat all men as if they will be the one to attack them, assault them, harass them. What a lively world you are proposing, where women won’t look at let alone talk to a man.

            • Blazer

               /  14th December 2018

              according to you ,getting out of bed in Pomgolia is dangerous!
              ‘Most of the things that women have to deal with can’t be avoided unless we wore a burka and stayed at home not showing our face. We have to go to work, walk down the street, go shopping. ‘

              Return to NZ where you can feel safe.

            • Missy

               /  14th December 2018

              Your comments show your lack of understanding, lack of comprehension and lack of empathy.

              It doesn’t matter where in the world we are women are vulnerable doing normal day to day things. More people in the UK mean there are more incidences but you are a fool if you think NZ is any safer for women than the UK.

              The same things happen to women in NZ as in the UK, just less often and in a smaller scale.

            • Blazer

               /  14th December 2018

              ‘You are no better than the men in the train.’

              That is very offensive.I could get quite cross with your bellicose attitude.

            • Trevors_elbow

               /  14th December 2018

              Dont feed the troll Missy. Blazer us a failure who gets off on baiting people.

  15. Alan Wilkinson

     /  14th December 2018

    All of these violent men were brought up by their mothers. Why is the result my problem?

    • MaureenW

       /  14th December 2018

      Again?

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  14th December 2018

        Ever. I stick to worrying about things I can do something about. There are plenty of those.

    • Gezza

       /  14th December 2018

      Because they give the rest of us a bad name and when it comes to disrespecting and abusing women, I want to punch them into next week – but like Gerrit says above:

      https://yournz.org/2018/12/14/men-have-a-collective-problem-with-violence-abuse/#comment-332120

      the risks of getting bashed up or stabbed to death like that poor gallant knight in Auckland, or if you win, getting charged with bloody unprovoked assault because “nothing justifies violence” make that a dicier proposition than many women realise.

      When good men, decent men, abounded in my youth – they all stepped in – and again as Gerrit says the threat of violence was usually enuf to send abusive or unwanted pestering scurrying off.

      • Gezza

         /  14th December 2018

        *pestering dirtbags

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  14th December 2018

        I have no interest in defending “my good name” from people who don’t know me.

        • Gezza

           /  14th December 2018

          Do you have any interest in wanting to do something about it when seeing a man abusing a woman?

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  14th December 2018

            I don’t go places where this happens. 99.999% of occurrences take place without my presence and I can’t recall the last time I saw one.

            So no.

            • Gezza

               /  14th December 2018

              What would you do if some random arsehole started abusing Mrs Al, out of interest?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  14th December 2018

              Call an ambulance for him, G.

            • Missy

               /  14th December 2018

              The thing is that abuse is not just overt physical abuse. I would bet you have been places where a women was being harassed, sexually assaulted (lower end of offending), or even mildly assaulted. You may not have noticed, or thought it was banter or a flirtation, maybe you thought it was a couple.

              I have seen it on the bus in Wellington, in cafes, in pubs, down by the waterfront. It is there but not always recognisable, or noticed.

            • Gezza

               /  14th December 2018

              There was a time when you could have approached a man or a group of them and asked them: I’m sorry to bother you, but could you help me?Could you stop this man pestering me, please?” They’d have done it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  14th December 2018

              You may think so but I don’t think so. The nearest I can imagine was a renting neighbour some years ago who repeatedly partied all night with a group of scumbags in violation of her lease and getting noise control call-outs. I could well imagine that lot behaving badly but if so it was entirely self-inflicted.

  16. Gerrit

     /  14th December 2018

    Very interesting discussion.

    But I have a problem. Right from the start;

    “‘Men’ have a collective problem with violence, abuse, murder, rape, misogyny – and should do more collectively to address these problems and the ingrained cultures that contribute to the problems.”

    No; 99.9 % of men do not inflict harassment or vileness on women. So why should the men be collectively responsible to prevent this happening?

    Why should the solution to harassment by the 0.1% (or whatever percentage you wish to ascertain) be laid at the collective feet of the 99.9%?

    In a round about way women want the men to solve their problems.

    More conflicting demands? Women want equality with men, but still ask for protection.

    As a society we ALL have responsibility to protect one another, but to project the problem of female versus male altercations purely to be solved by the men’s collective seems like old fashion knight in shining armour is still desired by women.

    Oh, and down tick away.

  17. Gezza

     /  14th December 2018

    Women have to deal with the elephant in the room.

    1. If you want better, less violent men, stop trying to raise them like they are girls. They’re not and when they hit their teens you have no idea what’s going on in their heads because you are NOT a teenage boy or youth and they are NOT telling you everything they’re thinking or wrestling with – no one wants to be a mummy’s boy then.

    2. Stop having kids to scroats, who are the sons of scroats or have learned to behave like scroats. Find a good man who’ll respect you, stick with you, and be around to teach your sons and daughters what a good man and father is.

    3. That doesn’t mean you have to worship him or let him be the boss. A good man doesn’t expect or demand that. If yours does, he’s not a good man. A good man wants to be your partner and a good father, wants your help with that, and wants you to want him to help you be a good, independent, woman & mother his equal.

    4. If you can’t find a man like that, so you take 2nd best to find a father, and give him the elbow, your daughters are going to have the same trouble finding good men. You might do a brilliant job raising boys on your own. But the stats are clear that too many don’t. And that that’s where your violent and disrespectful men are coming from.

    • Trevors_elbow

       /  14th December 2018

      Nail hit on the head.

    • Mother

       /  14th December 2018

      This sounds like common sense. Thank you Gezza.

      • Mother

         /  14th December 2018

        And it sounds like you’re a man who practices equality.

        • Mother

           /  15th December 2018

          “old fashion knight in shining armour is still desired by women.”

          Yes Gerrit, it certainly is still desired by women (most women I believe.)

          I would like my fellow women to become aware of when they are practising double speak.

          Men are great. Women who can think for themselves teach men about equality and great men learn.

          I think our country has a lot of great men. I would like women to be great too, and giving out conflicting messages messes up everything regarding our collective quest for equality.

  1. ‘Men’ have a collective problem with violence, abuse… — Your NZ – NZ Conservative Coalition