Open Forum – Wednesday

9 January 2019

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74 Comments

  1. Corky

     /  January 9, 2019

    Aussies have a hardline on immigration. They have no problem deporting people.

    China, likewise is toughening up on foreign devils, while at the same time making it easier to work in China if you have the correct documentation.

    New Zealand… ? Well, New Zealand has a problem with immigration. We have a history of kicking out many productive immigrants who aren’t given a second chance. But, if you are a scumbag with a good story…Kia Ora bro!!!

    I wonder if the real reason we don’t clamp down on immigration is because our economy would collapse? And of course we have our rainbow snowflake persona to protect on the world stage. Geez, what a mess.

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  January 9, 2019

      The back to front R and the hammer and sickle are Russian, not Chinese.

      Reply
  2. lurcher1948

     /  January 9, 2019

    Hi PG after your expedition into deepest nastiness Kiwiblog GD yesterday, a nasty poster called IGM posts his view of our PM Jacinda Ardern…
    igm
    You must be one of the very few that listened to Huckery Harridan’s waffle at the sickly UN!

    Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0 LOG IN TO REPLY REPORTJANUARY 9, 2019 7:12AM

    Reply
  3. PartisanZ

     /  January 9, 2019

    Excellent Letter-to-the-Editor in yesterday’s Northland Age by Kaikohe local John Coleman responding to David Fisher’s ‘Big Read’ article on the desolation of Kaikohe (NZ Herald December 21).

    Fisher: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12178975

    Mayor John Carter – “People are going to say ‘what’s the cost?’. I’ll say, ‘you go find out what it costs to put them in Ngawha (prison)’. And it’s more than the prison cost. It’s the opportunity cost.”

    Fisher – “The cost of the human potential unrealised, the cost in meeting social needs, the cost to businesses in not having a stream of energised and engaged people working – [and spending says I] – the cost of taxes not paid.”

    “[Northland MP Matt] King has recently met with and seen a tourism focused training scheme which has brought in young people from Northland’s deprived communities. It requires those involved to live where the training is, which removes them from their communities so they don’t “get dragged back down by their families”.

    FUCK!!! There’s a ‘True Blue’ solution if ever I saw one!

    According to King its now a 30 year plan to restore Kaikohe’s community. That’s sure to happen if you take the young people away … Huh!?

    Shane Jones puts it more simply: “Kaikohe is the epitome of how Rogernomics enriched some [communities and people] and discarded others.”

    Coleman: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northland-age/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503402&objectid=12187090

    “Along came Rogernomics. Exchange rate mishandled to disadvantage exporters and proven fertilizer subsidies cancelled. Newly developed land reverted. Interest rates up to 22%. The newly settled farmers wiped out. The only way out was to give [in] to forestry. Local rural communities’ numbers dwindled”

    Many people in Hokianga say the same, though over-simply, in response to the question: What happened to these communities? They say: “The pine trees came” …

    “A lot of land that went into pines should have stayed in traditional farming. Amalgamation of small dairy companies took out a lot of small suppliers, including Kaikohe’s town milk supply. Farm machinery outlets disappeared … Then Prebble took out the rail from Otiria to Okaihau … more HT on the roads … John Carter, 24 years as our MP … It has all happened on his watch … now Mayor of six amalgamated local bodies claiming something should have been done 20 years ago … As I see it Jones and Peters have started the change …”

    “Kaikohe is a friendly place – smile, shake hands or rub noses. We are a happy community. The social problems are no different form other rural towns, in my view. I am happy to be living in Kaikohe”

    Gotta go … My blood is boiling …

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  January 9, 2019

      Zero carbon requires more pine trees, less farming.

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  January 9, 2019

        Utter CRAP!

        Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  January 9, 2019

        And you know it Alan … It may require more chloropyhll producing plants … but there are thousands upon thousands of options other than pine trees …

        Is today some special day for Righties where they don’t mind being seen as *dicks*?

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  January 9, 2019

          Every day is a day I am happy to have facts produce only insults in response.

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  January 9, 2019

            You got off light, Alan. Parti impugned my character.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  January 9, 2019

              My character is impecable, Corks. Impunes bounce off it.

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 9, 2019

            So Alan, are you going to maintain that zero carbon requires more pine trees … and only pine trees … and nothing but pine trees … ?

            Not only do more trees NOT need to be pines, more trees do not equate to less farming … trees can be grown in paddocks as animal shelters …

            Trees could contribute to more humane livestock farming …

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  January 9, 2019

              Only radiata pine grows fast enough and lasts long enough to mop up enough CO2.

      • Griff.

         /  January 9, 2019

        Today, the kauri is being considered as a long-term carbon sink. This is because estimates of the total carbon content in living above ground biomass and dead biomass of mature kauri forest are the second highest of any forest type recorded anywhere in the world. The estimated total carbon capture is up to nearly 1000 tones per hectare. In this capacity they are bettered only by mature Eucalyptus regnans forest, and are far higher than any tropical or boreal forest type yet recorded.[23] It is also conjectured that the process of carbon capture does not reach equilibrium, which along with no need of direct maintenance, makes kauri forests a potentially attractive alternative to short rotation Pinus radiata forests, for example.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathis_australis

        Reply
    • Corky

       /  January 9, 2019

      Drugs, drugs and more drugs. Even without Jolly Roger coming along, these communities were fated to disintegrate. There is unbreakable attraction Maori have towards marijuana that is truly terrifying. Now you can add P to the mix….

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  January 9, 2019

        Simplistic fool! …… I can’t think of anything else to say …

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  January 9, 2019

          That’s mighty unkind of you, Parti. Yes, it’s simplistic and that’s the problem. You should see what it does to once productive Maori..as their mana drains away. As for the latest generation..they are a lost cause. Maori lost a whole generation of men during the wars. They are losing another generation now.

          Economics is only part of the problem. Social trends, the breakdown of family and morality meant such pressures that a city absorbs and relegates to certain areas of that city, cannot be absorbed by small towns who rely on a web of social interconnections to function.

          Reply
          • PartisanZ

             /  January 9, 2019

            Might have been unkind but at least you’ve explained yourself a little more clearly …

            I would say economics is the major driver of social trends – just what Dr Friedman ordered – including the breakdown of the nuclear/extended family.

            There may be positive aspects even to that though, things like ‘family of choice’ as opposed to family of origin …

            Choice though … ‘Free’ (or as free as possible) choice is essential, not economic, State and social compulsion as per the new ‘Stolen Children’ below …

            Morality is more ‘evolving’ than breaking-down IMHO, though economics may drive some of the [currently perceived as] negative aspects of said evolution … eg Porn …

            IMHO morality is shedding its Christian skin, which can only be a good thing. From the cocoon of Christianity shall emerge the Butterfly of ‘Natural Ethics’.

            Of course small towns absorb the same pressures as cities. Are you telling me Kaikohe doesn’t have its ‘posh’ neighbourhood[s] and its ‘mean streets’ [like the one where now 2 dog attacks have made the news]?

            In cities I’d say the “web of social interconnections” is simply different, not absent … You think Phil Goff hasn’t got a web of social interconnections? … and probably more financialized or commodified … eg professional firemen (personnel) rather than volunteer …

            Good discussion … Thanks for engaging more reasonably …

            Reply
      • phantom snowflake

         /  January 9, 2019

        The current thinking of those I know who work in the Addictions field is that alcohol and drug abuse is usually a response to trauma, i.e. self-medication for PTSD. I’m aware this won’t be popular here, but my view is that high rates of drug/alcohol abuse among Maori are due to to an accumulation of trauma (post colonisation) from many generations of being pulled apart from their lands, language and traditional lifestyle. “Post Colonial Stress Disorder” perhaps. It’s noticeable that indigenous populations where colonisation has bordered on genocide (e.g. Australian Aborigines, Native Americans) suffer from particularly high rates of addiction.

        Reply
        • phantom snowflake

           /  January 9, 2019

          Sometimes Post Colonial Stress Disorder manifests as ‘internalised racism’, Corky.

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  January 9, 2019

            So, a Maori born in 1980..how did he get PCSD.? I’m giving this psuedo disorder credence for the sake of debate.

            Reply
            • PartisanZ

               /  January 9, 2019

              O ye who would, I suggest, willingly agree with “intergenerational unemployment” and “laziness” etc …

              What about “intergenerational poverty”, lack of opportunity, hopelessness and even justifiable ‘resistance’?

              “I couldn’t quite ‘assimilate’ with jungle warfare in Vietnam and came out with PTSD” … kinda thing …

            • Corky

               /  January 9, 2019

              Excuses..and more excuses. In this country, given those supposed impediments to life, you will find a myriad of governmental and social support. Maori have had billions chucked their way. How the fuck do you think they would go in China or Brazil? Well, we have a rough idea using Aussie as an example They work and many become successful. Interesting to note as Maori have developed social networks in Aussie things aren’t getting better, they are getting worse from my experience and reading of the situation. Collectivism rearing its ugly head again?

            • phantom snowflake

               /  January 9, 2019

              It’s my belief that Maori tend to experience time a bit differently than Pakeha, so that the past and its traumas are somehow more immediate and ‘present’ in the present.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 9, 2019

              TINA … There is no alternative … is a form of “excuses and more excuses” Corky … There are always alternatives … just as there are a multitude of ways of perceiving “better” and “worse” …

              “Better” does not necessarily equate with ‘individualism’ rearing its ugly head …

        • Pickled Possum

           /  January 9, 2019

          too true ps

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  January 9, 2019

            Too true, what, my Cuz? Are you suffering from this affliction? Or does it support your view of life? How come John Scott, Kiri and a host of other Maori didn’t seem to suffer from this?

            Reply
            • phantom snowflake

               /  January 9, 2019

              Obviously resilience varies wildly across a population, Uncle.

            • Corky

               /  January 9, 2019

              Obviously..Auntie.

          • Pickled Possum

             /  January 9, 2019

            FUCK UP CORK TILE YOU SCUMMY TROLL I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES YOUR NOT MY CUZ YOUR MOT MY ANY FUCKEN THING YOU CREEP!!

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  January 9, 2019

              Answer the question and stop playing to Pete

              ‘How come John Scott, Kiri and a host of other Maori didn’t/don’t seem to suffer from this?”

            • Corky

               /  January 9, 2019

              Oh, sorry. John Scott was an architect.

            • Blazer

               /  January 9, 2019

              don’t let him get under your skin PP.
              The future belongs to you and yours..Crokey represents everything thats wrong with the ‘ME’ society ,that worships that false idol of…’success’.American..style.

        • PDB

           /  January 9, 2019

          PS: “I’m aware this won’t be popular here, but my view is that high rates of drug/alcohol abuse among Maori are due to to an accumulation of trauma (post colonisation) from many generations of being pulled apart from their lands, language and traditional lifestyle.”

          Descendants here of early Chinese who were heavily disadvantaged via the poll tax, racism etc didn’t seem to have a problem nor too the vast majority of people that consider themselves Maori living in this country today or overseas, especially Australia.

          https://teara.govt.nz/en/chinese

          Reply
          • acrossthespectrum

             /  January 9, 2019

            Young Hee, a Chinese immigrant, said that” of 900 Chinese on the West Coast in 1900, 800 smoked and 270 were regular smokers. They smoked in dingy dens, where there would be stretchers for the smokers to recline.The opium was heated for 15 minutes, the actual smoking took one minute and then the euphoric effect lasted about three hours”

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  January 9, 2019

              Yeah, and they woke up for work the next day. No welfare system.

            • acrossthespectrum

               /  January 9, 2019

              We don’t know whether they woke up next day or not and if they did whether they went to work next day or not. Were you there? Did they live long lives or short lives. Did they accrue any goods or die in poverty. Who knows Why were they spending money on Opium? Because they were happy?

            • Corky

               /  January 9, 2019

              Because it may have been a cultural norm..like Kava is for Fijians.

            • Pickled Possum

               /  January 10, 2019

              499 dead chinese were being sent home to china on the ss ventnor and the boat sunk at the hokianga harbour … their bones washed up and local hapu buried the bones … now every year a bus load of family come to mitimiti … as well as the 6 thousand who come to give thanks for pomalier bones..

          • acrossthespectrum

             /  January 9, 2019

            All drug use is a way to counter trauma.

            Reply
            • phantom snowflake

               /  January 9, 2019

              Even I wouldn’t go that far; there’s certainly non-problematic recreational drug use by well adjusted, psychologically healthy humanoids.

            • acrossthespectrum

               /  January 9, 2019

              If the person was as you claim a “well adjusted psychologically healthy humanoid” he/she would not need drugs of any kind.

            • Corky

               /  January 9, 2019

              Where does simple pleasure come into the equation?

            • acrossthespectrum

               /  January 9, 2019

              @Corky.
              “Where does simple pleasure come into the equation”?
              Is there such a thing as simple pleasure?
              Were humans ever a calm species or has fear and survival of the fittest driven our species even before we came out of the sea?
              May be all our rantings and ravings on this site is evidence of the need to compete even though food + shelter are plentiful we need to create imaginary struggle because stress and fear is in our dna the very fuel that sustains us.

            • acrossthespectrum

               /  January 9, 2019

              Fear/trauma often drives people to seek emotional security which may take many forms and mind altering mechanisms be they physical eg dope or psychological eg Gods/religion/Spirituality. Seeking political and social power, belonging to groups involving one self with family work the arts sports are all examples of a desire to create certainty in an uncertain world.Trauma/fear is multifaceted and ways to cope are similarly multifaceted and are manifested in many forms.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 9, 2019

              Acrossthespectrum covers “needs” and “wants” accrossthespectrum …

              Very difficult to live a life without trauma IMHO … starting with that journey down the birth canal …

            • acrossthespectrum

               /  January 9, 2019

              @PartisanZ.”Very difficult to live a life without trauma IMHO … starting with that journey down the birth canal” …
              Totally agree

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 9, 2019

            It’s evidently not the early Chinese we need to worry about with regard to drugs PDB … its a small proportion of the recent arrivals …

            But seriously, the early Chinese chose to come here … whereas many Maori did not choose their post-colonial stress …

            And ‘high rates’ are relative to population, so your “vast majority of people who consider themselves Maori” rather undercuts the point [I believe] you’re attempting to score.

            Good to know that the vast majority of Maori don’t have a problem …

            Also: Does the fact many have gone overseas say anything about how they’re doing?

            Reply
        • Duker

           /  January 9, 2019

          Heaps of people who face ‘trauma’ don’t become addicts…it’s more of a certain addictive type who get trapped in drug and alcohol use. Most would start just as casual users like everyone else, some even continue casual use with little problems…maybe for the first 20 yrs.
          Those who work in addiction field can hold whatever theory which was fashionable at the time of training or even idiosyncractic views from those that trained them.

          Reply
          • acrossthespectrum

             /  January 9, 2019

            @Duker “Many people who face trauma don’t become addicts”.
            I disagree. People who believe in God are not called addicts but they are addicts and it is trauma they are seeking refuge from.
            People who over eat are suffering trauma = obesity. Food is their drug.
            People who under eat anorexia and bulimia are suffering trauma.
            People who suffer from depression are experiencing trauma so if we include SSRIs) then the majority of new Zealanders are suffering trauma and taking “drugs” to temporarily ease or control the trauma.

            Reply
            • PartisanZ

               /  January 9, 2019

              Gambling addicts … workaholics … chronic thrill seekers … fitness freaks … etc etc et al … even chronic over-consumers maybe?

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 10, 2019

            @Duker – “Heaps of people who face trauma don’t become addicts”

            A ‘Rightie’ giveaway line if ever I read one – pure diversion – since we’re talking about those who DO become addicts …

            Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  January 9, 2019

      [Northland MP Matt] King has recently met with and seen a tourism focused training scheme which has brought in young people from Northland’s deprived communities. It requires those involved to live where the training is, which removes them from their communities so they don’t “get dragged back down by their families”.

      Think very carefully about these words …

      HOLY FUCK!!! King is describing and advocating a 21st Century version of ‘The Stolen Children’, which happened in both Australia & New Zeal Land, where children/youth were [often forcibly] taken from their families “for their own good” to be cared for by the State …

      The 21st Century, Neoliberal twist is that children/youth are economically compelled, State and socially pressured to leave their families and communities – who were economically and socially devastated by the State since 1984 – to be cared for by ‘The Market’ … for their own good …

      To exaggerate for effect: To be ‘trained’ to be good little servants for their Chinese masters.

      When will our blood boil over?

      Reply
      • Duker

         /  January 9, 2019

        King has been made to increase his profile so that voters think he is a real whizz…. Worried about NZ first much?

        Reply
        • PartisanZ

           /  January 9, 2019

          Huh! “Made” in the old-fashioned mafioso sense … ?

          They’re worried all right … with only 1300 votes separating them last election … and Willow-Jean a shoe-in on Labour’s list …

          I told so many Labour & Green Party supporters last election, “If you want to keep National out your ONLY CHOICE is to vote Winston … but they were on a ‘strategic voting’ buzz imported from the planet BYGONE …

          So it’s a full-on competition between ‘Four Lanes + Chinese Investment’ in the Blue corner and ‘Jonesy’s Provincial Growth Fund partnering local (and local govt) projects’ wearing Red-Black-and-Green …

          … some of the latter have picked up edifices like Manea Cultural Centre in Opononi which have been ‘feasibility-studied & nepoconsultantized*’ by successive governments since Fifth Labour to the tune of hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars … and now look a bruise-purple colour … with everyone showing up at a meeting I went to to ‘support’ it … Kelvin, Matt, FNDC, FNHLtd, NRC, Northland Inc, Creative Northland, you name it … except a whole bunch of ordinary local folk left out of the loop …

          It’s a place where, to service 35,000 [supposed] visitors per year in the first year, growing to 60,000 by year five, only about 16 of those young people who went away to be ‘trained’ can eventually come home and be good little servants in their turangawaewae … because Kupe’s story will be told on a giant interactive screen supplied by Gibson Group Wellington costing $1.8 million of the $4.6 million PGF funds …

          *nepoconsultantized = nepoconsultant = nepotism + consultancy. # 196

          Reply
  4. phantom snowflake

     /  January 9, 2019

    Never mind electric vehicles, here comes the future of transport! Experimental project in the Orkney Islands producing hydrogen to power passenger and vehicle ferries. Uses tidal power; ‘renewable’ and reliable. [ 3 minute video.]
    https://www.ft.com/video/11f9b532-07e1-4477-a6bb-1a709870dac6

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  January 9, 2019

      Many attempts to tame the sea have failed.

      Reply
    • Corky

       /  January 9, 2019

      Good stuff. Hydrogen will power the future until anti-gravity becomes publicly available. Even then hydrogen will still be an important energy source. Apparently hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. An endless supply of energy currently going to waste.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  January 9, 2019

        How will you use hydrogen? If you burn it you will need oxygen and if you fuse it you will need a nuclear fusion plant. The nearest one is the sun.

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  January 9, 2019

          I have a nasal cannula in at the moment. My body is burning hydrogen just fine.

          Reply
      • Duker

         /  January 9, 2019

        Hydrogen in the stars maybe not so useful here.
        On Earth hydrogen has to be produced from something else…..usual and most economic method is from natural gas… I see the obvious problem with that

        Reply
  5. PartisanZ

     /  January 9, 2019

    Some ‘Light’ reading … Two-tier Basic Income …

    http://www.superposition.hu/en/blog/two-tier-basic-income-ideal-monetary-system-part-9

    Teaser: “In the previous part, I argued that instead of asset purchases or boosted lending, we could much more successfully avoid deflation and stimulate the economy by means of a monetary basic income financed from newly printed money …”

    Reply
  6. acrossthespectrum

     /  January 9, 2019

    There’s a revolutionary new transport system
    ready to be revealed by Auckland City.
    Cheap, fast environmentally friendly, low set up costs.
    24/7 service accessible to 95% of the population.
    Easy to use low maintenance no parking required.
    And the new system is ….
    Walking 🙂

    Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  January 9, 2019

      Greatly under-rated is walking …

      For the entire 1978 academic year I walked from maybe 1km East of Mt Eden village to Auckland University every day …

      It was not uncommon to pass through the village at the same time as the #9 ‘Three Kings’ bus pulled in … and to arrive at the intersection of Symonds & Wellesley Sts at precisely the same time as the very same #9 bus …

      I saved the fare and got the exercise as well …

      On occasions I took the bus in ’76, ’77 and ’79 I also became aware that I hadn’t missed any ‘socializing’ on board …

      Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  January 9, 2019

      Speed limit 10 km/h?

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  January 9, 2019

        Nah … too fast Alan … That’ll lead to ‘footrage’* … [#195?] … Tehehehe … Rapidly heading for the double-century …

        Reply
      • acrossthespectrum

         /  January 9, 2019

        @Alan Wilkinson

        Speed limit 10 km/h?
        Hold your horses Alan .
        5 kph… no speeding. eh 🙂

        Reply
  7. lurcher1948

     /  January 9, 2019

    PG you were noticed with sympathy
    Well said. I think Nostradamus could put his not inconsiderable archival research and writing skills into more productive comments that hassling poor old Pete George or doxxing stephieboy.
    But perhaps he is just like me and many others here. As you say:
    The majority of us come to KB to spew a bit of bile and then return to our smug, hermetically-sealed little silos.
    That’s me too.
    PS who is Nostradamus,is he a lawyer or similar???? asking for me

    Reply
  8. lurcher1948

     /  January 9, 2019

    CHUCKS ON NZME ZB whining as usual, GOVT useless… NEVER SAW THAT COMING,Chuck dont you feel people sigh when they hear your voice, CANADA wants you home

    Reply
  9. Alan Wilkinson

     /  January 9, 2019

    Came back from Whangarei this afternoon only to spend twenty minutes in full sun crawling behind a road cone truck picking up about a kilometre of road cones at walking speed. This is SH1. Traffic was backed up out of sight behind us. At no stage did these clowns think of pulling over and letting everyone pass. Why should they care? Their bosses don’t.

    Reply

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