The kids who were killed in stolen car smash

Yesterday a horrible car smash in Christchurch that went up in flames, killing occupants, led the news.

The police are in difficult situations where dangerous use of lethal vehicles are involved. It has been reported that the car was driven through the city at over 130 km per hour, running red lights, in wet conditions. Some sort of accident was a clear possibility. So it happened.

Police officers were quickly on the accident scene, and were injured when they unsuccessfully tried to free the boys from the flaming wreck.

The role of the police in starting to chase the car, then withdrawing from the chase, then laying out road spikes that contributed to the accident, will get plenty of scrutiny in due course. It should be thoroughly investigated.

But what about the lives and deaths of the three teenagers? stuff has some initial insight in Young brothers killed after fleeing car explodes in ‘huge ball of fire

Stuff understands the boys are 16-year-old Glen Mcallister, who was believed to be driving the car, and 13-year-olds Craig Mcallister and Brooklyn Taylor.

The mother of two young boys killed alongside their friend after the fleeing car they were in exploded says she’s in “severe shock”.

That’s understandable.

Glen and Craig’s mother, Juanita Rose, told Stuff she was in “severe shock” after losing her two sons, who she called her “babies, my life”.

Their sister posted a tribute to her “handsome brothers” on Facebook.

“Losing one of you is hard enough, but both of you going has destroyed me. Thirteen and 16 is way too young to be gone.

But these three young teenagers were out near midnight driving a car they had stolen. And it is claimed they had a habit of stealing cars.

Taylor’s older sister, TeAri Taylor, said her younger brother’s life began to unravel when their father died nine years ago.

Taylor said she felt sick when she got a call on Monday morning to say her brother had died.

I know the feeling, albeit in less horrific circumstances.

“He was a broken child.They were attached at the hip, Dad was his best mate.”

Brooklyn was in the care of Oranga Tamariki at the time of his death.

TeAri Taylor spoke with him in April last year, after the death of their grandmother, about moving up to Wellington to live with her.

“At the time he wasn’t going through a very good situation, wrong people, wrong crowd – just basically couldn’t get out of the situation that he was in,” she said.

It sounds like he was certainly in the wrong crowd in the wrong car on Sunday night.

“Everybody makes mistakes, but that’s your life. They were only 13 and 16 – it’s absolutely disgusting, they had so much to live for.

“As much as I’m broken that we have to bury my baby brother, it wasn’t an easy decision or situation to deal with for those police to have to deal with.”

It is understood the three boys had regularly stolen cars throughout the city in recent months. The Mazda Familia involved in the crash was first seen speeding in central Christchurch at 11.13pm on Sunday, reaching speeds in excess of 130kmh and running red lights on Moorhouse Ave. It had been stolen earlier that night.

If it is understood that “the three boys had regularly stolen cars throughout the city in recent months” how could they have still been able to be out stealing and driving on Sunday night?

The police will hopefully learn from how they handled the incident. Some of the police officers are likely to be haunted by what they had to deal with.

Oranga Tamariki may also hopefully learn something from their involvement.

But will there be lessons for families of out of control teens?

Also from Stuff – The faces of fatal police chases: Teens make up half of crash victims

Teenagers make up almost half of all victims of fatal police pursuits reported in New Zealand in the last three years.

Stuff has been able to confirm the identities of 27 people who died as a result of car crashes where police were in pursuit at some point since 2015. This includes drivers, passengers, and innocent road users who were hit.

Of the 27 fatalities, 13 were teenagers, some as young as 12 years old.

 

 

 

 

133 Comments

  1. Trevors_elbow

     /  15th January 2019

    Young males… unguided… at least one fatherless with no strong Male role model enforcing discipline and most important giving the youngster a Male who cared about him…. what could go wrong!

    This is not the Polices fault. This is parental failure writ large…..and a reflection of our societies attitude to family structure and managing teenagers..

    Will be interesting to see where the dads are at in this whole situation….

    • David

       /  15th January 2019

      Dad died.

      • Trevors_elbow

         /  15th January 2019

        Yes one kids dad died, but it’s not clear about the other two. Its typical half arsed reporting with missing facts. Where is the dad of the 16 year old?

  2. Te Reo Putake at The Standard piles on the police over this, including a headline saying that the police love chases.

    I wonder if he would say that to the faces of the police officers who got burns and smoke inhalation from trying to rescue the kids from the crashed car.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/cops-%E2%99%A5-chases/

    Or to the faces of the surviving victims or families of victims of unrestrained stolen car joy riders.

    Andre comments:

    As a teenager I had a couple of acquaintances that ran from the cops and got away. Both later died in separate crashes they caused, with no police involved, and they both killed innocents in those crashes they caused.

    • Trevors_elbow

       /  15th January 2019

      It’s like a knee jerk response to blame the cops.

      130ks on a suburban road running red lights! It’s the Polices job to stop that sort of reckless endangerment and breaching of the law before innocents are killed. They did just that.

      Sad that young lives are snuffed out but TRP is just being biased against the Police due to his/her/its Leftie view of the Cops as instruments of the Capitalist oppression society…

      • Duker

         /  15th January 2019

        Was that happening when the police STARTED the chase – or was it just an old car with some young dudes late at night, who the police target for other reasons.

        • High Flying Duck

           /  15th January 2019

          Perhaps you could ask the guy they stole it from?

        • Trevors_Elbow

           /  15th January 2019

          Due to the piss poor reporting we don’t know if the car was reported stolen and the Police saw it and called on it to stop – precipitating the chase….

          Nevertheless – these youths decided to take off – doesn’t matter if they were just cruising around. Failure to stop is failure to stop. Fleeing a Police pull over is an offence.

          I see you hate the police and are down with the Yoof doing WTF the want, when the eff the want. But I’m not. They decided to flee and they have paid the ultimate price….

    • artcroft

       /  15th January 2019

      The sub-standard continues its war against intelligence, decency and the human race.

    • Duker

       /  15th January 2019

      “police officers who got burns and smoke inhalation from trying to rescue the kids from the crashed car.”

      Thats not what the public who were there said which was – “standing around not knowing what to do”

      The rescue story came in the police PR conference
      How many fire extinguishers from police cars were discharged , were the police treated for burns at hospital ? Tangible stuff like that rather than a fabricated PR

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  15th January 2019

        I heard that the heat drove them back and made it impossible.So both stories could be true.I’d say that there’s not much chance of putting out a fire like that with extinguishers, even if these were there.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  15th January 2019

          The police said smoke inhalation, and the officers were at home recovering.

          They had put spikes down and the boys hit them at high speed.

  3. David

     /  15th January 2019

    I feel so sorry for the officers involved, no doubt good people who joined to make the place safer and now have the nightmare of living with this I hope they get plenty of support.
    Its awful but if you are reaching 130kmh in the CBD of Christchurch then someone is going to die, they had to be stopped. A sad loss of life.

    • Duker

       /  15th January 2019

      They only took off at that speed after the police were chasing them….

      • Trevors_elbow

         /  15th January 2019

        So what. They chose to speed off. They have agency. They were in a stolen car. Get a grip ….

        • Duker

           /  15th January 2019

          Cars are stolen every day …to police its not something they put much effort into resolving.
          A stolen car turns up or it doesnt …no big deal

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  15th January 2019

            It’s a big deal if it’s your car and you’re left stranded somewhere with no way to get home.

          • MaureenW

             /  15th January 2019

            It’s a big deal when they’re your kids stealing cars and they don’t have any driver license

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  15th January 2019

              It’s a big deal when you’re the one paying the excess on the insurance and not getting back enough to buy a car as good as the one someone’s now joyriding around in.

              It was one when a friend and his partner were stranded very late at night, I forget where. It was also one when another friend’s car was stolen and they were left without transport with a small child until they sorted out insurance etc,

              I don’t suppose that the police make it a top priority, but it’s a big deal to the owner and, as you say, the parents of the thieves.

  4. Griff.

     /  15th January 2019

    Darwin.

    • PartisanZ

       /  15th January 2019

      Although she wrote it very recently about the 1080 debate, Marie McEntee’s words are imminently pertinent here –

      “As humans at the top of the food chain, we alone in the world have ethics and morals. We must take responsibility for all our” … behaviours and decisions … “Socially complex arguments are not arguments about facts. They are arguments about values and morals and choices … [in which] … scientific evidence can and should play a role … ”

      Darwin’s ‘theory’, which remains to this very day a theory, was written about creatures whose lives are determined entirely by instinct, whose consciousness does not have ethics and morals, and who don’t make decisions about their own behaviour like we do …

      • Corky

         /  15th January 2019

        ”Darwin’s ‘theory’, which remains to this very day a theory, was written about creatures whose lives are determined entirely by instinct, whose consciousness does not have ethics and morals, and who don’t make decisions about their own behaviour like we do …”

        Therein lies the problem of man if we rejig that last paragraph to express a notion that man has as much unconscious instincts as he has self determination, all contained within the same being.

        Excellent to see you know Darwins ‘theory’ is just that..a theory.

        • Griff.

           /  15th January 2019

          Yip who doesn’t know what a scientific theory is ….

          A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not “guesses” but reliable accounts of the real world.

          Darwin is a reference to the unfit removing them self’s from the gene pool due to their stupid actions .’

          Here is a classic from the 2018 awards.
          https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2018-15.html.

          (3 September 2018, New Zealand) Sometimes the fastest method results in the deadliest outcome. The tale of Howard Miller, 39, professional welder and Darwin Award Winner, illustrates the pitfalls of ignoring high school chemistry with a time-saving invention.

          Always helpful, Miller spent his last moments helping a friend weld an exhaust pipe onto a classic Holden Kingswood sedan. He arrived at the garage shed with an experimental welding kit: an LPG bottle, similar to a propane tank, in which he had mixed both components that make up oxy-acetylene welding gas: acetylene and oxygen.

          Now, that last detail should send a shiver down any welder’s spine! Professional welders know that these components are kept in separate tanks because, when combined, they burn hot enough to cut metal. A tank of mixed acetylene/oxygen + no flow regulator = an accident waiting to happen.

          Like a scene from Breaking Bad, Mr. Miller had unwittingly constructed a lethal explosive!

          Once Miller unveiled his jury-rigged device, his friend regognized this dangerous equation and repeatedly warned that it was crazy! Finally he high-tailed it out of the shed while Miller, undeterred by a bit of panic, attachec a torch head straight onto the bottle and lit the welding tip.

          Sans regulator, the flame crept back into the bottle and the inevitable explosion flattened the shed, which also contained about twenty litres of paint thinner and gasoline. The force of the explosion was so intense it shattered the windows of neighboring properties.

          Needless to say, the friend is in need a new car.

          The deceased winner, a gentle and generous man, would surely be grateful to know that no one else was hurt in the fracas. And as a consolation prize, his tragic experiment will benefit others by demonstrating a potential consequence of skipping chemistry class.

          Note to corky
          Griff is telling you not to do it because…. science.
          You really dont want to mix a fuel and oxygen in the same can under pressure and blow your self up.
          Again Griff is telling you not to…. because science says it is a really window licking stupid thing to do.

          • Corky

             /  15th January 2019

            ”A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not “guesses” but reliable accounts of the real world.”

            That’s where you lost it. The rest is just your Limbic brain kicking in. On one hand you patronisingly try to explain science…on the other you write:

            ”Again Griff is telling you not to…. because science says it is a really window licking stupid thing to do.”

            That’s really scientific. I call it the Jim Salinger effect.😁

            • Griff.

               /  15th January 2019

              Reverse psychology – Wikipedia
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_psychology

              Reverse psychology is a technique involving the assertion of a belief or behavior that is opposite to the one desired, with the expectation that this approach will encourage the subject of the persuasion to do what actually is desired.

            • Corky

               /  15th January 2019

              Really! What a clever boy you are….not.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  15th January 2019

              Corky, you really do need to learn what “theory” means in science.
              You are confusing it with “hypothesis” where the evidence is not yet gathered to prove a supposition:

              “Hypothesis vs. Theory. A hypothesis is either a suggested explanation for an observable phenomenon, or a reasoned prediction of a possible causal correlation among multiple phenomena. In science, a theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven factors.”

              https://www.diffen.com/difference/Hypothesis_vs_Theory

          • PartisanZ

             /  15th January 2019

            Griff, to say, “Darwin is a reference to the unfit removing them self’s from the gene pool due to their stupid actions” is to mock not only Darwin but your every fellow human being … and, to my surprise, Patscuaro seems to agree …

            Presumably you mean “stupid actions” like the youngest Vildebeest in the herd falling prey to hunting lions?

            Or the “stupidity” of those birds programmed by instinct to throw their fledgling young out of the nest, where some fall prey to predators before learning to fly?

            Where are any examples in ‘Darwin’ of creatures “removing them self’s from the gene pool” through their own “stupidity”?

            Your anthropomorphization of ‘Darwin’ leads you to conclude, effectively, that all accidents resulting in death are actually stupid people removing themselves from the gene pool. Suicides are no doubt the same thing: Stupidity?

            If that’s the case, the gene pool is well and truly fucked already!

            • Griff.

               /  15th January 2019

              I should not have to point this out.
              When I typed Darwin I was referring to the poplar meme the ‘Darwin awards’ above not the scientific theory.

              I have zero sympathy for the kids or their family’s. shite happens .

              Without going into detail lets just say at their age I was already well aware why driving a FWD car in the wet at speed was probably not a good idea let alone doing so to escape the cops. In a perfect world other kids would learn from this sort of accident .

            • PartisanZ

               /  15th January 2019

              That could be a computer game, not unlike “Grand Theft Auto” … “The Darwin Awards” …

              Kids who are on a personally distressed, hopelessness and anti-authoritarian ‘buzz’ fueled by alcohol, drugs and speed WILL LEARN FROM IT …

              Did you say, “In a perfect world”?

              Is that you Frank? When’s “Smell of an oily rag” coming back?

            • Griff.

               /  15th January 2019

              PZ
              you did not get the hint did you
              I was a dumb kid once
              i had poclic chases list my linces for dnagours driving

            • PartisanZ

               /  15th January 2019

              I missed that …

              I was a dumb kid too … although without any chases or convictions.

              Looking back, I was dumber than most. I followed the ‘herd’ for far too long.

        • Corky

           /  15th January 2019

          ”Corky, you really do need to learn what “theory” means in science.”

          Maybe I committed the sin of interpreting what Parti wrote as being wrong: or using the wrong terminology:

          ”Darwin’s ‘theory’, which remains to this very day a theory, was written about creatures whose lives are determined entirely by instinct, whose consciousness does not have ethics and morals, and who don’t make decisions about their own behaviour like we do.”

          Depending on how you approach Darwin’s work, that isn’t entirely correct.

          Hence my reply to him.

          ”Therein lies the problem of man if we rejig that last paragraph to express a notion that man has as much unconscious instincts as he has self determination, all contained within the same being.”

          • Gezza

             /  15th January 2019

            Yes. We’re apes. It shows. Instincts, adrenalin & testosterone often kick in & drive behaviour and the frontal cortex takes a back seat & it’s particularly noticeable in teenage boys and young men in their 20s. I’ve often said young males are probably the most dangerous animal in the world. That’s why they like them in armies.

      • Patzcuaro

         /  15th January 2019

        The essence of “Darwin” in these cases is that if you do something stupid that may result death, such as stealing cars, you can’t complain when that is the end result. It is not an option to allow individuals to act in socially unacceptable ways on the road without consequences.

        • PartisanZ

           /  15th January 2019

          That’s not ‘Darwin’ at all! Not one iota of it. That is simple cause and effect.

        • High Flying Duck

           /  15th January 2019

          The hardest part is knowing that at that age these kids simply have no concept of the risk or consequences of their actions. Even if they do, they still don’t have the brain development to rationalise their actions and stop.
          The Dunedin study has a lot of evidence of teen crime being a fleeting stage for *most” people. The majority of those who do stupid things in their teen years go on to become productive members of society.
          Unfortunately in this case, the risky behaviour was of a type there was no coming back from.
          Very sad for all. The Police are in an invidious situation with chases as the evidence is sketchy on the pro’s and cons – and consequences – of chasing vs not.

  5. Gerrit

     /  15th January 2019

    Stuff have a fluff piece from Kamala Hayman titled “Police chases for traffic offences must end”.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/109923972/police-chases-for-traffic-offences-must-end

    Published at 5am. Comments (117) closed at around 7am with 99% against her/his position.

    “Put simply, police should not be involved in high-speed pursuits unless the public is in imminent danger from a violent offender. Too many lives have already been lost.”

    How are police to know that the people in the stolen car are not violent offenders and that the public is not in imminent danger when the driver is speeding and running red light?

    The opinion of Kamal Hayman at Stuff are not in tune with the public’s opinion, that is for sure.

    • Duker

       /  15th January 2019

      Queensland Police explain why they halted car chases
      “Worldwide, more police and members of the public are killed ‘in police action’ due to car crashes than any other cause.”

      This simple sentence explains why the Queensland police no longer chase drivers who have committed minor breaches of the law.
      https://dogandlemon.com/media/queensland-police-explain-why-they-halted-car-chases

      problem. Fix . Solution .
      Its simple really

      • Blazer

         /  15th January 2019

        well…

        ‘Over the weekend, Queensland police shot and killed a 51-year-old man who was allegedly armed with a knife. On Monday night, another man was shot and killed on the Gold Coast. It was the sixth Queensland police shooting in 2014 and the fourth fatal shooting in a matter of months.

        These incidents have again placed the use of lethal force by police in the spotlight. How prevalent is the use of lethal force by police in Australia? Is a disturbing trend developing in Queensland? Can we learn lessons from overseas that will avoid situations that result in deaths?

        • Duker

           /  15th January 2019

          And the car chases ?

          Oh thats right you are diverting because you have no answer, inspite of looking up online something to counter me .

          • Blazer

             /  15th January 2019

            no need to chase someone if you …shoot them!
            Queensland Police are no angels.

    • duperez

       /  15th January 2019

      What’s imminent danger? Something you can specifically see in front of you where you judge something bad is likely to happen?

      And if the road ahead’s all clear as far as you can see there’s no imminent danger? So the chase stops?

      Myriad complex factors are usually involved in the chase disasters we hear about. The background of the boys involved in the latest show that. We pitch in reactions and responses to the various elements like parenting and care of or dealing with ‘youths at risk.’

      If someone had decided there was ‘no imminent danger’ all the other central issues wouldn’t be recognised and addressed but they’d still exist and the negative effects of them would manifest themselves.

  6. Seabird

     /  15th January 2019

    Blaming the death of the father of one of these 13yr olds is bullshit in my view. At that time he was only 4.

    • PartisanZ

       /  15th January 2019

      I tend to agree. You’d have to do a comprehensive analysis of police chases ending in fatalities – and perhaps serious injuries too – to ascertain whether there was any correlation between fatherlessness and this behaviour …

      What about young people whose fathers are present but ‘absent’ or present but brutal and/or irresponsible role models – possibly encouraging and/or modelling such behaviour themselves?

      I wonder if there are any such studies? Or whether the Otago longitudinal study can help us here?

      I’m not trying to blame the police in any way – I have personal experience and have worked with them at the scene of horrific motor accidents – but IMHO it wouldn’t do any harm to analyse the family backgrounds of the police involved in chase fatalities as well …

      I’m thinking of the one example I personally knew – many years ago – of a super-aggressive young man who joined the police – training for which did nothing to alleviate his tendencies – who openly bragged about being in fights and car chases …

      • david in aus

         /  15th January 2019

        I would say ‘shit-parenting’ is to blame. There are plenty of fatherless families that do okay. Saying this, evidence shows those that come from two-parent families have better outcomes.

        But in a family, you need two good parents. One rotten parent usually undermines the other, you need a united front.

      • seer

         /  15th January 2019

        “I’m thinking of the one example I personally knew – many years ago – of a super-aggressive young man who joined the police – training for which did nothing to alleviate his tendencies – who openly bragged about being in fights and car chases …”
        That would be in the pre-rainbow tick years?

        • PartisanZ

           /  15th January 2019

          You “see” so clearly “seer” … That’s ‘Right’ … back in the good old days!

          The good old days when things were worse than they are now …

    • NOEL

       /  15th January 2019

      History of stealing cars. Wonder how long there offences history in the Youth Court is?

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  15th January 2019

      I don’t follow your logic. If his father died at 4 and subsequently for lack of that stability he wound up in foster homes and state care, why would that not be a causal factor?

  7. Zedd

     /  15th January 2019

    You cant blame the cops for ‘just doing their jobs’ BUT it sounds like some take a gung-ho/cowboy approach & maybe get a thrill from ‘the high-speed chase’.. but; was it really worth the lives of these 3 young guys.. surely there were other options ?? 😦

    In other countries, they are backing away from the ‘chase them at any cost’ option

  8. Alan Wilkinson

     /  15th January 2019

    We need to know some facts in order to make a policy decision that is actually rational.

    Simply, what is the risk not starting a chase will result in casualties compared with the risk that starting a chase will result in casualties?

    Until we know the answer everything is b.s.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  15th January 2019

      A secondary question if the answer to the first is in favour of chases, what are the risks of placing road spikes on a wet road?

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  15th January 2019

        PDT hates facts in case they interfere with ignorant opinions.

      • Gerrit

         /  15th January 2019

        There are absolutely no dangers at all, IF the speeding driver simply slowed down and stopped. On a dark and wet night or in daylight and sunshine during the day

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  15th January 2019

          Answering the wrong question – deliberately.

          • Gerrit

             /  15th January 2019

            Your question “…what are the risks of placing road spikes on a wet road?”

            For the police none if done in time.

            For the fleeing driver he risk placing himself in a situation beyond his ability to foresee (unless he has run over spikes in the past) what will happen.

            For the general public a low risk as long as the police have cleared the area.

            You reading my answers in what light…?

      • Griff.

         /  15th January 2019

        Road spikes are designed to make a tyre deflate slowly stopping the car in 100 to 400 meters from deployment.
        The fact they crashed so soon after spike deployment suggest driving well outside of their or the cars capability in the conditions not the police were responsible due to controlled deflation of the cars tyres.

        • Gerrit

           /  15th January 2019

          Suggest that the driver was in a situation way past his ability. His only recourse was to slow down and stop.

          Not having the smarts to do that let to the conclusion he bought on himself and the two passengers.

          One thing I really detest are statements in the press that the “car lost control”.

          The car did not lose control, the driver did. The car lost traction due to an nonperforming driver way in a situation way above his ability to cope and thus losing control.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  15th January 2019

            I agree; the car goes out of control, the driver loses control. The man I knew whose car went across a main road when something locked in it lost control; his car was uncontrolled. In this case, of course, it wouldn’t have mattered who’d been driving.

            130 kph in wet weather and going through red lights…it’s amazing that they didn’t kill a few innocent people as well as themselves.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  15th January 2019

          Speculation. The attached guidelines say that spikes should not be deployed where excess speed is likely, let alone in the wet. Blenheim Road is a straight race track so seems to have been a seriously inappropriate location at first sight.
          https://www.cheshire.police.uk/media/1573/stinger-vehicle-stopping-device.pdf

          • Gerrit

             /  15th January 2019

            I’m getting to “cry me a river” stage with the excuses and “should have done” this or that and not placed spikes and not chase fleeing drivers..

            All I want the Police to do is to protect me and the public, if spikes are placed on a wet road and the fleeing driver ignores the warnings issued, continues to speed, kills himself and his passengers, that is of no more consequence to me.

            As someone said earlier, Darwins law in operation.

            Now if he had stopped and said I need help, I would be the first to offer it.

            That English Police vehicle stopping device (stinger = road spikes). The PDF is its operating procedure dating back to 2007. Just imagine a constable on a beat having to know all those procedures just to lay spikes. How much time do you think they have? Never mind to ask the question; am I authorised to use spikes?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  15th January 2019

              Also having to guess where the person’s going and having to be ahead of them as they go 130 kph.

              I don’t think that the boys deserved that hideous death, but there’s no getting round the fact that their own actions caused it.

              One can only hope that it might make other young men think twice.

            • PartisanZ

               /  15th January 2019

              But it’s not Darwin’s law … There isn’t one … There’s only a theory pertaining to jungle animals …

              You, like Patscuaro and Griff, have mistaken simple cause and effect for ‘Darwin’ … with a sprinkling of “accident” necessarily being “stupidity” added in … (along with Griff’s extraordinary assertion of people “purposely removing themselves from the gene pool”) …

              I absolutely must entertain the possibility it isn’t a mistake on yous part at all … its confirmation bias justification …

    • Conspiratoor

       /  15th January 2019

      I’m not sure relating events to chases and/or casualties is a reliable indicator of risk Al. Allow me to explain

      You have to relate an event to related events by the same offender. If a youth runs from police and there is no chase and no casualty this naturally emboldens him to do it again. The probability may be comparatively low the first time but with each subsequent event by the same offender the risk rises. Contrast this with a chase and catch the first time. Chances are improved there will be no second time. Although with deadbeat parents perhaps not

      A bit like tossing a coin. The first time is a 50/50 call heads or tails. Over two throws the chances of a head rises to 67%

      • Gerrit

         /  15th January 2019

        Sorry conspiratoor, Your odds sequence is wrong. It is what the casino’s want the gullible to believe, however at each individual coin toss the odds of heads or tails is always 50/50.

        In a sequence of coin tosses the odds are for each toss is 50/50.

        Now you may have a run of head or tails in a sequence but the odds are always 50/50. You can say I had three times heads so the next one has a potential to be another heads up toss. But in reality it is 50/50 if it be a heads again.

        The casinos want you to believe that on the roulette table a run of say reds will indicate a trend. But this is wrong, at each spin the odds are 50/50 red or black.

        • Conspiratoor

           /  15th January 2019

          Agreed, but it’s not what I said. Read it again

        • High Flying Duck

           /  15th January 2019

          I think the point is, that in the minds of the offender, police not chasing stacks the odds in their favour and encourages them to keep behaving in the same manner.

          • Conspiratoor

             /  15th January 2019

            I think this was the point I was trying to make HFD. However we have entered the nefarious world of the casino. I have five grandchildren. All of them have a penis, not one has a vagina. What are the odds of a man having five grandsons on the trot?

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              Same as the odds of my little bro having 5 girls? At least he’s now getting a mix of grandies.

      • PartisanZ

         /  15th January 2019

        IMHO there’s something quite amiss in your transumptive comment Conspiratoor … Allow me to explain …

        Do you remember the old childrearing maxim: “Reward the good behaviours: Ignore the bad behaviours”

        So if there is no attempt to stop by police, and no police chase, isn’t it just as likely the kids will lose interest? The bad behaviour is not being rewarded.

        You’re also forgetting the human tendency towards revenge, particularly in anti-authoritarian humans, which could easily lead those chased and caught first time to do the same thing again to “get even with the cops”, prove they can get away with it and assert their manliness …

        • Conspiratoor

           /  15th January 2019

          Allow me to reward you with some homework. Research ‘Broken Windows’

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  15th January 2019

        If there are no casualties when police don’t chase then there is no need for further investigation unless and until that changes. If there are some casualties then that frequency must be compared with the casualty frequency resulting from chases making sure both are normalised to equivalent bases.

        Presumably in places where pursuits have been stopped there are now statistics showing what number and proportion of casualties have resulted after “no chase” actions and these can be compared with the old policy statistics. Where is this evidence?

  9. Missy

     /  15th January 2019

    “But will there be lessons for families of out of control teens?”

    As long as the media and liberal left give the kids and families an out by putting the blame on the police, suggesting they take a “gung-ho/cowboy approach & maybe get a thrill from ‘the high-speed chase’.. ” and say the police should not initiate the chase the families will never learn any lessons.

    As long as these kids, the media, their families and some in society believe that it is okay for these kids to refuse to stop for police, as the must by law, then these deaths will continue.

    These kids are a danger to the public if they are driving around city streets at more than twice the speed limit, running red lights, at night in the wet.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  15th January 2019

      Of course they are a danger, Missy, but the issue is the best way to mitigate that danger. That requires serious study, not just assertions.

      • Gerrit

         /  15th January 2019

        Studies have been done. They are now on their seventh review. Bloody hell we are a country of committees and buck passers.

        “The number of police pursuits have shot up by 64 per cent in the last six years, and the Independent Police Conduct Authority is reviewing current policy, despite there having been six reviews and 12 new versions of the policy in recent years.

        “When 59 per cent of pursuits are abandoned I do think that is the police taking a very responsible attitude towards this,” Mr Nash said.

        It’s an attitude police hope fleeing drivers will take on as well.”

        https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/most-kiwis-want-police-continue-chasing-fleeing-drivers-1-news-colmar-brunton-poll

        The public overwhelmingly back the police, not the fleeing driver.

        And a fleeing driver has a 40% chance the pursuit will be called off.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  15th January 2019

          The issue is not whether police and politicians think they are being responsible but whether they are saving lives or killing people. Simple as that. Show us the facts.

          • Gerrit

             /  15th January 2019

            If they save my life by placing spikes on a wet road for a dangerously fast and fleeing driver, I’m all for it.

            If the driver dies and I live, I’m OK with that.

            The driver had a choise to live or die. If the Police did nothing I may not have that choice when ambling through a green light as the fleeing driver runs the red and kills me.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  15th January 2019

              I don’t care what you believe, Gerrit. It’s quite obvious that you are oblivious to the facts and their consequences with respect to your opinions.

              As for ambling through your green light it’s pretty clear you are far more likely to be hit if the police initiate chases than if they don’t.

            • Gerrit

               /  15th January 2019

              I prefer my common sense over your “facts” as to when, where, how and who can use spikes. Talk about red tape. How many pages was that document from the Cheshire Police?

              I prefer to live and if the fleeing driver doesn’t care to live or die, his problem and deserved reward if driving at 130Km and driving through red lights..

              Like I said “cry me a river”. My heart don’t bleed like the bleeding heart liberals that live in fairly land composed like some sort of GTA game play.

              But if the driver had stopped and asked for help than myself and society own him a fair go.

              But first he had needed to stop.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  15th January 2019

              I know you prefer your opinions to hard facts, Gerrit. That doesn’t make them common sense.

          • Gerrit

             /  15th January 2019

            “Hard facts” contained in a 22 page procedural manual that must be implemented in a few minutes if not seconds by a constable on the beat.

            By that time the constable implements your “hard facts” you will have been killed by the fleeing driver.

            Ah well, you will just be another “victim” of a fleeing driver. Hard luck old chap and all that.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  15th January 2019

              Don’t be obtuse. The hard facts are proper analysis of hard data to determine what are impacts of different policy options.

      • PartisanZ

         /  15th January 2019

        @Alan – “That requires serious study, not just assertions.”

        And, I’d suggest Alan, not just ever more policing because of the obvious though perhaps unscientifically substantiated part “anti-authoritarianism” plays in these people’s lives and in these incidents …

        If I was going to seriously study it, I mean really seriously, I’d have a look at the part “pro-authoritarianism” plays as well … and that’s more likely to involve the police … but not exclusively the police … [just as it isn’t exclusively pro-or-anti] …

        To what extent, for instance, is this theft and/or dangerous driving behaviour attention-seeking and/or ‘cry for help’? Possibly a cry for “more authority” in one’s young life?

        I’m just speculating here …

        And if, let’s say, it is a cry for help … an appeal to the subjugated or abandoned “pro-authoritarianism” in one’s self …. How did come to this?

        We do just have to respond to each occurrence in the moment as best we can … but we could be looking a whole lot deeper too IMHO.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  15th January 2019

          I’d settle for the simple question I asked above being properly studied and answered. That might save quite a few lives immediately. Beyond that I’m with Gezza that boys need fathers to learn to be men. That’s a hard loss to replace and female social workers are never going to do it.

          • PartisanZ

             /  15th January 2019

            I’d add your simple question into the complex mix Alan …

            “Female social workers are never going to “replace” fathers” … sure …

            And, by the same token, we have to deal with the ‘fact’ we live in a society where many fathers are ‘absent’ in one way or another … which is absolutely NOT a new thing …

            That’s what we have to work with …

          • Pickled Possum

             /  15th January 2019

            Agree with you Al female social workers are never going to do it ….ALONE.

            With most of the young boys, I dealt with that had no fathers or real men to guide these youngsters into adulthood, they just tried to play me as they undoubtedly played their mothers sisters all the females in their life.

            Of course, until they realise that I have been played by the best
            and it just doesn’t work with me …. well most times it didn’t.

            Got to admit sometimes the hush puppy eyes and the slight tilt of the
            head with watery eyes is hard to see thru. But we learn …slowly.

            Men are not going into these roles of social workers these days
            the stress is just too much to cope with and be a role model for their own.
            Do boys need fathers to be real men?
            Real men …. what is that these days?

            Real men change shitty nappies
            Real men let their girls paint their nails pink and don’t give a shit
            Real men cry at chick flicks
            Real men teach their boys how to use a chainsaw
            Real men teach their boys how to shoot possums safely
            Real men show their boys how to say sorry to their wives
            Real men use their words NOT their fists
            Uncles Grandfathers brothers can teach boys to be men also.
            Saving lives is paramount to killing lives … where are the stats keep??

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              Uncles Grandfathers brothers can teach boys to be men also
              Yes, but why are so many having to? Where are the dads. if they’re shit men, why are they even dads? Who let them become dads?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  15th January 2019

              I agree with you (mostly), Possum. Not sure about the chick flicks – other things for sure. Most of all, real men know how to use humour and kindness to deal with big problems. They know how to balance risk with freedom and experimentation. That’s a lot of knowing.

            • PartisanZ

               /  15th January 2019

              @Gezza – “Who let them become dads?”

              That’s something you’re not going to change in a hurry … maybe not without a healthy dose of ‘relationships’ education of some kind?

              Or an unhealthy dose of Eugenics …

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              Who should be giving them their “relationships education”?

              My mum & dad gave me mine. I learned it well and applied it. So did my late lovely lady. She was tiny but tuff and took no nonsense – except mine, sometimes, with a smile. Other times she put a stop to it with a single look that I knew meant a cold night of not replying to me until I cut it out or said sorry.

            • PartisanZ

               /  15th January 2019

              I could kinda say the same … Mum and Dad were important … Siblings too … and everyone else … but I can hardly say mine was perfect because what is “perfect” in such circumstances?

              Plenty of people I went to school with in the 60s and 70s had, I believe, much less adequate relationships education than I did … but of course it didn’t stop them relating in their own ways …

              What “going to school” taught me was that I was powerless in this situation … and that I might be relatively powerless in the face of authority for the rest of my life …

              To my mind it seems almost ‘normal’ if not kinda healthy for a maturing teen to rebel against that?

              So in the longer-term I reckon we might benefit from asking questions like: What is it teens are rebelling from … and how can we change that dynamic?

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              What is it teens are rebelling from … and how can we change that dynamic?

              There’s no rite of passage into young man and womanhood in our modern society. Like there still is in strongly tribal and village-oriented societies. An example would be the Maasai in Kenya.

              They pass into manhood, at an annual ceremony where they do this, and dress up with serious eye-makeup; the girls don’t wear it, the young men do. And the girls pick their husband.

              After that they are adult men and are expected to behave responsibly & take on all the normal responsibilities of an adult man in the village of fathering & helping raise children, especially sons, providing for their family, and being a contributing member of the community.

            • MaureenW

               /  15th January 2019

              @ PartizanZ “What is it teens are rebelling from … and how can we change that dynamic?”
              I believe it is a natural part of readiness for adult-hood, but first teenagers must separate emotionally from their parents control. That’s what I think teenage rebellion is.
              Sadly for some, they never stop rebelling, but others “get it” as they start becoming responsible for their own decisions, welfare and safety.

            • PartisanZ

               /  15th January 2019

              @Gezza – “There’s no rite of passage into young man[hood] and womanhood in our modern society. Like there still is in strongly tribal and village-oriented societies.”

              There’s something we might look at changing right there Gezza? Our ‘modern’ society …

              These, presumably, are the self-same ‘primitive’, uncivilized “tribal and village-oriented societies” Righties love to fear-and-hate on and rail against at every opportunity?

              Because we live in a country that had and has such a culture, whole websites and political movements are devoted to denigrating it.

              They don’t have our ‘schools’, our ‘Law & Order’, our criminal ‘justice’ system, our market economy – white and black – with its youth market etc etc … but we envy them their ritual transition from youth to adulthood?

              In other words: We might learn something from them …

        • Gezza

           /  15th January 2019

          Yep, I was anti-establishment/anti-authoritarian as a teenager, because most of my friends were too. And we had fights with other groups when arguments go out of control. And I hung round with some tuff bikies for six months because I was allowed to. But all of us had been taught not to steal & that if we were caught breaking the law the police had the running. Our parents would make sure we were ok but paid the price.

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  15th January 2019

      I remember years ago when a yob was making a pest of himself outside a shop, I forget how but think it was along the lines of kicking things over, thus damaging the stock and being a smart-arse when the owner told him to go away. The owner asked if he wanted a clip around the ear. ‘Yes.’ was the reply. So he got one….and went home to whine to Mummy about it. Mummy went to the cops and made a complaint. Mine wouldn’t have.:D

  10. Gezza

     /  15th January 2019

    I’ve got nothing to add that hasn’t already been said. Trevor has pretty much said it all for me. Time to stop analysing why it happens and start looking at why no decent fathers is considered to be no problem for young children.

    And if there are no decent fathers, why are women having kids to absolute shit ones? I know the father sadly passed away in one of these cases. But in others they haven’t; they just aren’t there.

    If you haven’t got engaged, lived with them for a while to see what they’re like, and they don’t want to marry you, don’t have kids to them. They can break your heart and rip you into pieces when something like this happens.

    • Gezza

       /  15th January 2019

      And we have to address the crisis with the boys. Mum can’t do the job when they hit their teens and discover they’re not the girls with penises too many have been raised like. The testosterone kicks in at teen time, they suddenly know they’re not girls, they go looking for what they heck they are supposed to be like as a man, they’re lost, they find out in myriads of ways they’re actually supposed to be tuff and do daring stuff and the join the crowd who do it. It’s no good dumping them on the koro and nani because dad’s not there or in the slammer. it’s just not good enuf. Stop blaming men.

      • Gerrit

         /  15th January 2019

        Also makes you wonder when the boys play games like Grand Theft Auto. There when you die, a simple reset and you are alive again.

        Unfortunately in real life you can only die once.

        • Gezza

           /  15th January 2019

          Yes Gerrit, that’s just one of the myriads of ways they find out how they’re supposed to be. And there are movies. And rap videos. And the gang toughs in the grubby cool gear who don’t have to dress nice … and on and on.

          • PartisanZ

             /  15th January 2019

            So, clearly and evidently the issue[s] extend[s] into the very deepest depths of our society, our so-called ‘civilization’ … our values and morals, their distorted political expressions, our warped economy with its games, fast cars and addictions … its ‘youth culture’ marketplaces … its “popularity” and peer pressure … and the places, like ‘school’, where these are incubated and magnified … and on and on …

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              Yes to most of those. And its our generation – the first really selfish, self-absorbed one – who really set this ball rolling on its way.

              and the places, like ‘school’, where these are incubated and magnified … and on and on …

              No, Those are now the places where female teachers & educators are somehow expected to do the job of two parents and can’t. That wasn’t their job in my day. However bad it was with some bullying male teachers and even though there was some bullying and fighting at my male only school there was also strong morality and responsibility (and respect for women) taught.

              Fights were broken up. Both were punished. But responsibility ended at the school gate or out of school uniform and parental responsibility for our behaviour was paramount.

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              I was an anxious testosterone-fuelled boy in 2nd form. We had a big old Irish-extraction bastard of a maths teacher who strapped you at the drop of a hat for not understand what he just wrote on the blackboard and immediately erased, or for copying it.

              Halfway thru the year my parents went to a PTA meeting. My mum cornered him and told him what was happening with me, while dad stood back, I was coming home an absolute terrified mess unable to understand and do maths any more, terrified of getting the strap for getting it wrong like so many others, every day.

              He never hit me again. But he carried on the same way, strapping others. Every day. I never recovered or could understand much maths beyond the basics from then on. I still struggle with complex calculations or algebraic equations etc. I have to look them up. The mental block was so strong.

              But the rest of school was fine. I was popular or at least not disliked, The one guy who hated me because I was a better artist than him (actually, he WAS better, imo) got his arse handed to him by the cool guys when he tried to get others to gang up on me.

            • PartisanZ

               /  15th January 2019

              Well … Gezza … Yeah/Nah … I guess … It’s a bit of a rosy picture of the past though …

              What you’re kinda saying is: It was better ‘back when I was a kid’ when we had schools that produced “our generation – the first really selfish, self-absorbed one – who really set this ball rolling on its way.”

              Hmmmm …

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              No that’s not what I’m saying. Off to ma’s. I’ll leave it at that. You’re just projecting again.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  15th January 2019

              We had Mr T-rn-r, the one who was really unjust and would bash kids on the head with his plastered arm and was also a pervert.

              The worst one was the harridan who took religious instruction and traumatised us (I can’t believe that I was the only one) with her teaching that we (at 6) were responsible for our families being (or not being) in The Lamb’s Book of Life and that if we failed, they’d go to Hell. If we succeeded, they’d go to Heaven, of course, and the idea that we were the ones who would make it happen was terrifying. As were the stories she told us, like a boy who ended up living in a barrel.

              I wonder how many children this old hag traumatised before she was removed when my parents, and quite possibly others, found out and went to the school

            • PartisanZ

               /  15th January 2019

              Just being forced to go to school before they are ready is enough to traumatize some children …

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              I would never have been ready to go to school. I would have spent all of my often-anxious childhood avoiding any emotional discomfort or stress and only playing, only doing the things I wanted to do. If I’d been allowed to. I’m a perennial lotus eater.

              I had one shit teacher for one year at school who did some pretty deep damage to my mathematical learning, but I had no problem with language or words or art and I have always had the option of pursuing remedial education in maths I just chose to avoid the emotional discomfort of seeming slow at something and the stress of concentrating, which I still don’t like doing.

              Going to school early taught me that life isn’t about lotus eating. You have to learn how to take care of yourself among other humans & find out who you are and that they are also in the world. It’s not just you who’s the most important person and that everyone should be making you happy.

        • Pickled Possum

           /  15th January 2019

          Fast and furious lifestyle with no boundaries in place and because there is no sane role model around our young are racing towards death and destruction daily.

          In some instances not having the father that (planted the seed of life in the ovary) around can be the best thing. When the Xbox is the role model with Grand Theft Auto as your only guide who is surprised that this sort of thing happens. Not many if any. RIP young fellas your time was up when you dance with the devil and NO one says a word.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  15th January 2019

        They miss out on seeing how real men deal with all of life’s problems and their partners and their children. That’s a lot of missing out.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  15th January 2019

          What about women who physically and psychologically abuse their children ? That’s been going on since time immemorial, too.

          • Pickled Possum

             /  15th January 2019

            good point miss but the topic today is fathers and these boys that died a fiery death none of them didn’t have an active one.

            Do you think Woman who abuses their children have no help to parent these children…. with no father or role model to pull the wicked woman back into line?

            I had an extremely abusive mother and a passive father so when I was beaten he would sneak into my room and whisper to me be good for your mother otherwise she will hurt you.
            Do you have children miss if so how did you cope with stress?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  15th January 2019

              I don’t have any. I find that question a bit personal.

              I know that men often stay with abusive women for the sake of the children, in case it would be even worse if they went.

      • MaureenW

         /  15th January 2019

        Getting boys through puberty and their teenage years alive and out of the court system is hard work (with or without fathers). They seem to be completely oblivious to the long-term consequences their impulsive actions can have.
        With regard to the 3 boys involved in this accident, it is sad for their families, however if the tragedy hadn’t occurred this time, it probably would have next time or the time after that. I’m glad they didn’t take out any innocent bystanders – people who have their lives disrupted or terminated through no fault of their own.
        Regarding the Police, just doing their job, I feel sorry for them.

        • Corky

           /  15th January 2019

          Well said. This problem indirectly cost Celia Lashlie her life.

        • Gezza

           /  15th January 2019

          Maureen, we are bullet-proof at that age. We live in the now and crave thrills & excitement & danger. It’s exhilarating. It was one way I could completely forget my constant anxiety in maths class or anything depressing at the time. “Just do it”. God, we were strong. Crap outcomes happened to other kids. Not us. My world was me & mates. Even girls were a tag-along.

          • MaureenW

             /  15th January 2019

            Had first hand experience Gezza, it’s truly frightening. Got through it (just).

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              You have my sympathy, Maureen. We terrify our mothers. That’s why we don’t tell you what we’re up to, we only tell you half of what we’re up to. We don’t want to hurt you but nobody wants to be a mummy’s boy. Jesus, the embarrassment.

            • MaureenW

               /  15th January 2019

              My son’s mates still laugh about the morning they were returning up our driveway @ 4.45am, at exactly the same time Mum had realised the house was very quiet and was in the garage opening the garage door to the outside world to see where my bloody car had gone. Snapped!!

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              Our parents had a network of other parents all keeping tabs on us & telling each other if we were seen all over New Plymouth. I dunno how the hell it worked . Sometimes they just kept quiet and told us years later, but if it was trouble or potential trouble we’d be asked what was going on when we got home.

              I met my first girl-friend at the beach by the Waiwhakaiho river mouth where we wandered off together down at an impromptu barbecue on the beach with our mates and their gfs or the girls who were part of our group pre-pairing or re-pairing.

              When I got home later that night, late dusk, my mother asked who my girlfriend was??? 😮

    • Trevors_elbow

       /  15th January 2019

      Just had to sit down…. we agree!!! Bloooddyy heck! ; )

  11. artcroft

     /  15th January 2019

    The only reason these boys were speeding was to avoid having to spend another afternoon in a family group conference restorative justice session. I feel for them.

    • MaureenW

       /  15th January 2019

      That’s a strange comment Artcroft. Restorative Justice helps keep kids out of Detention Centres and provides them with some insight as to the consequences of the actions that put them there in the first place. I don’t feel sorry for them, but do feel sorry for their families and the police who have to pick up the pieces.

      • PartisanZ

         /  15th January 2019

        Just Arty demonstrating his “grown-up inhumanity” MaureenW … which is an entirely different thing to juvenile irresponsibility …

        • artcroft

           /  15th January 2019

          A least my inhumanity is not endangering the public Patz.

          • PartisanZ

             /  15th January 2019

            That depends Arty … If there were enough of you and you influenced Law & Order policy to the point where restorative justice was thrown out as being “pandering to PC” and seer’s “Rainbow tick” and every other socially-progressive measure was tossed out with the baby, you might very well endanger the public …

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              Restorative justice was the norm when I was growing up. It involved our being sent round by our parents to the people we’d offended against to apologise in person, and to offer to make it right if possible, and be grumpily forgiven, if it was an adult, as it often was.

            • Gezza

               /  15th January 2019

              And when we said” Noooo muuuum, pleeease”, dad, who was normally a softy, said:

              “YOU GET ROUND THERE NOW ! If you’re too scared, I’ll come with you, but YOU are knocking on the door, and I’m standing out on the street !”