New Zealand has been changed, Your NZ will change

The Christchurch mosque massacres have had a huge impact on New Zealand. Some of that impact is very negative, awful.

But an overwhelming majority of New Zealanders expressed horror and sadness, and sympathy to the many people directly affected by the killings.

Major events like this change countries, and can change the world. Your NZ is a very small part of all of this, but things will also change here.

As much as possible this will be positive change – from diversity we have to look at learning and making things better.

Free speech has always been important here, but it has become increasingly obvious that acceptable speech and safe speech have to be given even more weight.

I have always tried here to maximise decent behaviour and speech, and to discourage abusive, hateful and divisive speech. In the past there was one person in particular who kept returning under different identities, and kept trying to perpetuate some awful things cherry picked from some awful websites around the world.

This person has long gone from here, but even yesterday at the height of the shock and horror of the Christchurch killings there were still attempts to victim blame and to promote divisive ‘cultural superiority’ (a narrow brand of white culture). This was very disappointing to see.

The Australian-born suspect who shot dead dozens of Muslim worshippers in Christchurch, New Zealand, has published a manifesto citing US President Donald Trump and Anders Breivik, the Norwegian white supremacist who murdered 77 people in Norway in 2011.

The 74-page dossier, which has been described by Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison as a “work of hate”, praised Trump as “a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose”.

The 28-year-old, who is now in police custody, also claimed that he had “brief contact” with Breivik and had received a “blessing” for his actions from the mass murderer’s acquaintances.

The dossier stated objections to immigration and multiculturalism, and decries the “decaying” culture of the white, European Western world.

(SOURCE: AL JAZEERA AND NEWS AGENCIES)

RNZ – Mosque shootings: Offender ‘a very clear white supremacist’

Security analyst Paul Buchanan said he had seen the manifesto of the alleged Christchurch shooter and his presence on right-wing platforms online.

He is a very clear white supremacist who has been planning this for two years,” he said.

“This is about as bad as it can get because it shows we don’t live in a benign environment … we’ve been affected with the virus of extremism.

“The thing is it came from white supremacists and not the Islamic community, [they were] the target today.”

There are many examples of Islamic extremism overseas, perpetuated by a small minority of Muslims. Fortunately we have had very little of this in New Zealand. The biggest dangers here are from our own violent culture problems, and from extreme right wing promoters of hate, intolerance and division.

“Let’s be very clear, Christchurch has a very active white supremacist community. A community that has attacked refugees and people of colour on multiple occasions over the last 20 years. This is the worst of them.”

There will be a lot more attention given to the ‘white supremacist community” in New Zealand.

And I’m going to give this more effort and attention here at Your NZ, because some aspects of this obviously persist here, albeit on a relatively minor scale and to a relatively degree.

So I’m going to do my small bit and promote positive change out of a very nasty negative day in New Zealand history.

This will mean challenging and preventing hate speech and division more, and putting more of a priority on safe acceptable speech. That this may reduce the ‘free speech’ of some is a small price to pay for making New Zealand a better place to live.

Jacinda Ardern said yesterday:

We, New Zealand, we were not a target because we are a safe harbour for those who hate.

We were not chosen for this act of violence because we condone racism, because we are an enclave for extremism.

We were chosen for the very fact that we are none of those things.

Because we represent diversity, kindness, compassion. A home for those who share our values. Refuge for those who needs it. And those values will not and cannot be shaken by this attack.

We are a proud nation of more than 200 ethnicities, 160 languages. And amongst that diversity we share common values. And the one that we place the currency on right now is our compassion and support for the community of those directly affected by this tragedy.

And secondly, the strongest possible condemnation of the ideology of the people who did this.

You may have chosen us – we utterly reject and condemn you.

Here at Your NZ I will do my bit in condemning and rejecting hateful and divisive speech – this would include Muslims who try to perpetuate violence and hate (but we have never had a problem with that).  And it includes those who try to promote any sort of white cultural superiority, and who abuse and attack other cultures, religions, nationalities or groups.

For free speech to prevail hate speech must be condemned and contained.

 

 

 

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145 Comments

    • Ray

       /  16th March 2019

      All good points Peter, we all should take a loong look at our selves, Left and right and avoid extremism, possibly feel free to report it, if that can lead to better outcomes.

      On the other hand,maybe just bulldoze Christchurch, what is wrong with that place!
      The mayor had the barefaced affontery to claim she did not know that it had a history of white nazism, mind you she just admitted on Wednesday that she has known for ages that her husbands law firm was working for the foreign water bottlers but did feel that was of interest to the rate payers.

      Where were our much vaunted Intelligence people or Australia’s !

      Expect to see the usual suspect calling for a general loss of various of our present freedoms and more money to “stop” this happening again.

      Reply
  1. David

     /  16th March 2019

    Lived here for many many years and aside from that Chapman fella there isnt a white supremecist problem in Christchurch, historically sure but we are incredibly diverse here especially post quake.
    That Bucahnan is wrong and is looking to raise his profile off the back of this, in light of your wanting more civil discourse I will refrain from my thoughts on this divisive figure. I see him as no better than your garden variety nutter trying to exploit a tragedy.

    Reply
    • Patzcuaro

       /  16th March 2019

      You may have a more diverse population in Christchurch post quake but that doesn’t mean the old Christchurch has gone, it just has more to be unhappy about. If this was to happen in NZ and it has, it doesn’t surprise me that it happened in Christchurch.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  16th March 2019

        Really? It seems it was all plotted in Dunedin and possibly generated in Australia.

        Reply
    • Blazer

       /  16th March 2019

      ‘ The GCSB and SIS have both had increases in budget by 250% and 174% under National and Key reorganised the following intelligence apparatus to answer only to a small clique of security goons that Prime Minister Bill English now controls; the Organised Crime Intelligence Unit, Financial Intelligence Unit, Strategic Intelligence Unit, National Bureau of Criminal Intelligence, Identity Intelligence Unit, Threat Assessment Unit, Police Terrorism Investigation and Intelligence Group and the Special Investigation Group.

      That’s a lot of security apparatus doing what?……TDB.

      Reply
      • NOEL

         /  16th March 2019

        I’ll wait for the investigators report.
        What we do know is he was not a member of any group so would not have appeared on any Christchurch observation list.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  16th March 2019

          where did the hardware come from?Was showing it..off online.

          Reply
        • Duker

           /  16th March 2019

          “What we do know is he was not a member of any group ”
          Online groups , yes. Thats how it works these days. You are just making stuff up

          Reply
      • High Flying Duck

         /  19th March 2019

        “Far-right extremists were on the intelligence radar and tip-offs about their activity had been followed up ahead of the Christchurch mosque attack, according to the Government and intelligence bosses.

        The minister responsible for intelligence agencies, Andrew Little, said the SIS commissioned its own internal review into the far right about nine months ago.

        It was in response to the “obvious rise” of white supremacism, and other far right activity around the world,” he said.

        “The rise of white supremacism had become apparent in the arrests in Europe and other parts of the word and it was at that point the SIS undertook its programme of work to consider how they had to gear up to deal with that issue.”

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111377200/far-right-extremists-were-on-the-governments-radar-before-mosque-attack

        Reply
  2. Alan Wilkinson

     /  16th March 2019

    You can’t strike a balance with your eyes closed so your task will not be easy, PG. Not talking about suicide has been a failure and the intersection between religion, race and politics will be no different and as stressful.

    Reply
    • I know it’s not easy. I’m not doing this whole blog thing because it’s easy, but because I think it’s important to work out better ways of discussing and debating important issues without being used and abused by people who try to divide and who promote hate.

      Reply
    • Patzcuaro

       /  16th March 2019

      @Alan I’m not sure why talking about suicide has been a failure, it won’t solve it overnight. But sweeping it under the carpet is certainly not going to solve it. I imagine it is some comfort to those left behind that they are not alone. Talking sensibly about things is usually better than bottling them up.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  16th March 2019

        I said “not talking”.

        Reply
        • Patzcuaro

           /  16th March 2019

          Apologies

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  16th March 2019

            I don’t ever remember a general refusal to discuss suicide. I don’t think that anyone should be obliged to name it or any other cause of death in the death notice; everyone who knows them will know, and it’s nobody else’s damned business. Why do I need to know why XY died ?

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  16th March 2019

              There was a general publication block on identifying suicide justified by the belief it could encourage copy cat behaviour. It seems to have failed. The media exists to publish information that someone doesn’t want published.

  3. Mother

     /  16th March 2019

    I disagree with Jacinda.
    We most certainly are a safe place for haters. Her rhetoric is way behind the times.

    When I first arrived on YourNZ I copped hatred immediately from Christian haters and it went on for weeks. Nobody came to my rescue.

    How are you going to police your new fervour for free speech devoid of hate Pete? It sounds like a religious zeal to me.

    It is time we, as individuals, realise that no one is exempt from the religion issue. You must decide what to do about Christianity.

    Jacinda is pandering to fluffed up milk pudding from years gone by. Christians need meat. Society (as individuals making informed choices) need to figure out the where/what/why/when/who of Christianity.

    I submit to YourNZ that the Christianity we must embrace is way different to anything society has known so far. There is a very positive hope for our way forward from yesterday’s dark hour.

    Jesus is the Victor.

    Please, don’t hate on that. I know that the name of Jesus Christ causes division and offence. I’m just stating what I know to be true, because I love my country too.

    Reply
    • MaureenW

       /  16th March 2019

      One of your early activities on this blog was requesting money from other commenters to fund your going after some other sect of religious fanatics. You’re a wee bit of a hypocrite there mother. there are other people who are simply not interested in your brand of religious fervour – me being one.

      Reply
      • Mother

         /  16th March 2019

        I did not request money. I never do that. I’m an independent thinker who takes my own actions. I make my own way with what I earn by myself and I alone am responsible for my life choices.

        You refer to when I put forward an idea re rescuing people from an evil cult. There’s not a lot of difference between the violence there than in the violence at the mosques yesterday.

        Maureen, you clearly own very little compassion. Perhaps there’s not much difference between your heart and that of yesterday’s criminals.

        You are confused about what ‘religion’ is. Most people are, sadly and frustratingly. For a person who is not interested in my posts, you seem to pay a good deal of attention.

        If you must, go back and see if you can find evidence that I requested money. If you can’t be bothered doing that, stop being a troll at this most heinous time in the history of our country.

        Reply
        • MaureenW

           /  16th March 2019

          You requested money on two occasions I saw – you are a liar too.

          Reply
          • Mother

             /  16th March 2019

            Prove that I requested money Maureen. And where is the ‘moderator of no hate’ now when I am being called a liar?

            Maureen is a hateful person. Watch out for her kind in your everyday life.

            For clarification, I put out feelers for others re a terrible issue we have with one particular cult in our country. I have no involvement with them. I was interested to know whether there might be others out there who care about that issue and might be willing to hear some ideas for positive action.

            What positivity are you bringing to this sad time re the mosque crime Maureen? Or will you continue to insist on trolling?

            If you think I was asking for money online, you must be daft as well as sadly lacking compassion. What person in their right mind would go off tangent at a time like this just because she hates a Christian? You are indeed a sad person. Sad people tend to practise hate.

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  16th March 2019

              give it a…rest.

            • Mother

               /  16th March 2019

              No Blazer. You are a victim blamer. Learn to ignore my posts if you dare.

              The only reason I came back anyway was because people are upset. I do not see any positivity in the emotions spilled. I do have something positive. Jesus is the Victor. And he loves you Blazer. God speed you too😎

            • Blazer

               /  16th March 2019

              ‘ if you dare’….branching into…comedy…now.🚴‍♀️

            • You’re hilarious!!

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  16th March 2019

              Mother, you can be longwinded and I disagree with you at times, but I think that I’d remember requests for money.

            • MaureenW

               /  16th March 2019

              You’re wrong too Kitty, because you didn’t see it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. it was a request for a lot of funding to support “its” grandiose plan to wipe out some religious sect.

            • Mother

               /  16th March 2019

              Maureen, you insensitive person! At a time like this – and you only want to nitpick?

              Prove that I asked for money. Take the time and prove it. From memory it is David who is best placed to say whether I asked for money.

              You lose Maureen. You don’t even care that our own countrymen and children are lying dead. It is people like you who are the biggest problem to our practising an ideology that is civilised.

              You lose – yet where is the contest? People are dead Maureen. We have had an act of terror because of diversity. Families are changed for worse. And all you care about is money.

        • MaureenW

           /  16th March 2019

          I concur with Duker

          Reply
          • Mother

             /  16th March 2019

            Because you lost.
            I ask again – where is the contest? What on earth are you actually trying to contest at a time of mourning?

            Reply
    • Mother

       /  16th March 2019

      “….the intersection between religion, race and politics will be no different and as stressful.” (Alan)

      There is no intersection between politics and Christianity. None. You haven’t yet seen Christianity like what we need. Are you willing? The closer and more carefully one practices Christianity, the further away perceived intersections with politics become.

      I see that Alan also mentions that avoiding talk about suicide didn’t help. Very good. It is his generation who brought us all to this point. People often choose suicide because they are confused about who is in control.

      I also submit to YourNZ that we need our older folk like never before to consider Christianity.

      Ignorance about Islam is extremely risky. It is a religion of hate. So is Catholicism. So is Freemasonry.

      Has it come to this? – Ignorance is Hate.

      At this time of course we are aghast at the ignorant and hateful behaviour of yesterday’s criminals. And please don’t allow your reactions to stop just beyond the fluff. Eat meat.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  16th March 2019

        Islam is NOT a religion of hate. If you say that, you are ignorant yourself. There are extremists who use it as an excuse for hatred. as people like the Westboro Baptists do with Christianity.

        There are many verses in the Bible that could make it seem like a religion of hate.

        Reply
        • Mother

           /  16th March 2019

          The Muslim god is Allah. They believe he is too great to die.

          The Christian god is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who loved the world so much that He died as the only sacrifice capable of appeasing the death penalty of sin.

          Because Allah is too great to die, Islam hates what is perceived as blasphemy in Christianity. They detest blasphemy with an extreme vengeance. Compare this to Christians, who just quietly get on with life even though Jesus gets blasphemed heaps.

          Many bad things have been done throughout history in the name of ‘Christianity’ too. People are now confused about religion, Christianity and Church. That’s why I have mooted the term ‘Uncomplaining Courageous’ and my friends say that it’s helpful just now to say ‘the Body of Christ’ instead of ‘church’. (If you don’t mind reading my longwindedness Kitty, you may have noticed that there is a clear distinction between ‘church’ and ‘Church’ in my mind.)

          Most nominal Muslims are just gliding along, same as most descendants of Christians. The extremism of Islam could take us by surprise. Those western criminals yesterday are foolish wreckers. Their hatred is evil and I deplore it. However, it is prudent for us to have a sensible discussion about religion. Diversity is unsafe. Tolerance yes, but diversity no.

          I know what you mean about the Bible verses which mention hatred. Everything in context however. God is no puppet master. Sadly, the Church presently lacks Bible scholars who are Christians. The Bible is God’s story of loving us and desiring our love in return.

          If Kiwis actually owned an ‘ideology’ there would be a whole lot more positive action and exposing of evil before atrocities occurred. Diversity of ideology is a terribly bad thing. We are on dangerous territory.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  16th March 2019

            I think that this is NOT the time to slag off Islam.

            Reply
            • Mother

               /  16th March 2019

              I didn’t slag off anything. How absurd that in our civilised culture people get so easily offended by religious comment.

              I wrote about the differences in tolerance toward blasphemy, comparing Muslins and Christians. That’s not offensive.

              And I wrote about how diversity is not as benign as we like to think. How is that offensive?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  16th March 2019

              Well, I think that it’s not appropriate just now.

            • Mother

               /  16th March 2019

              And I think it is highly appropriate.

              This is a conversation we must master in civilised fashion, whenever and wherever it arises. Denying that we have grave issues re our inability to embrace diversity will only wind up people like yesterday’s haters.

              No doubt if the people on that man’s Dunedin street had known he was harbouring extremism they might have invited him for meals and friendship?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  16th March 2019

              I wouldn’t have.

  4. patu

     /  16th March 2019

    So here’s a question for you Pete. Would it be acceptable for me to post a link here to the so called manifesto that the Australian allegedly wrote all by himself?

    Reply
    • No, I have already said that I don’t want it linked to from here.

      Some quotes from it if they are relevant to other discussions are in general acceptable, but I reserve the right to decide what is acceptable.

      In other words, I don’t want his/their crap promoted here, but some exposure of what those people are trying to achieve and where and they get their information from is probably worth while.

      For example it has been claimed that there is a link between the name of the ‘manifesto’ and the writings of Lauren Southern. This needs exploring. These sort of killers get their ideas and encouragement and warped justification from somewhere.

      Reply
      • Conspiratoor

         /  16th March 2019

        Sections of it have been posted on WO with accompanying commentary. My view is this is the right course because it provides a good insight into this guys background and transformation into an extremist willing to kill
        Yes there is some downside in giving him exposure, but there is greater upside in promoting understanding and removing some of the inevatible conjecture we are already beginning to see here

        Reply
      • Lauren Southern has a Youtube video and postings with the same name as the ‘manifesto’. I think that’s unlikely to be a total coincidence.

        Reply
        • Conspiratoor

           /  16th March 2019

          I believe the thing in its entirety runs to over 70 pages so i would not be surprised to find text lifted from elsewhere. The sections WO have extracted are first person accounts from the perp himself and in themselves provide valuable insight and context

          Reply
          • “He sees himself as an agent for revolution, as his goal was to incite violence between Muslims and non-Muslims”

            That’s more than a bit ironic from Whale Oil.

            Reply
        • Trevors_elbow

           /  16th March 2019

          So you link Southern with out knowing. Anyone can quote someone else and claim affinity. Doesn’t make it so. Nice work Pete

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  16th March 2019

            Southern:
            ‘Muslims can no doubt be decent and noble people, just as tame wolves do exist, the fact is that Islam the religion is by its nature dangerous to the West,” she says in her book.
            Which is of course her as racist bigot , as Muslins arent a single race but they are seen by her as ‘non european’ ( her definition) being Africans, Asians and Middle eastern.

            Reply
            • Trevors_elbow

               /  17th March 2019

              She never mentions race in the quote you yse. ‘West’ is mentioned referring to culture. You choose to project racism on to the statement. Attributing with support of a direct quote which doesn’t support your conclusion… what a surprise! A nice smeary comment from Duker…. you truly are a typical useful idiot for the Left…

      • Gezza

         /  16th March 2019

        These sort of killers get their ideas and encouragement and warped justification from somewhere.

        They get these ideas from people who bang on incessantly that European culture & legal systems are the apex of civilisation & superior to all others, among other things.

        Many people who claim this also advocate scientific racism & the current ploy to cover up their white supremacist racism is to claim they can’t be racists because certain Jews have been shown in some questionable studies to have the highest IQs.

        Reply
        • Conspiratoor

           /  16th March 2019

          G, I think you might find a significant percentage of the worlds population hold the view that “European culture & legal systems are the apex of civilisation” although you won’t find them out there banging on about it

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  16th March 2019

            A lot of them are in the US – their president stokes them up and makes excuses for the ones who do bang on about it. All just for votes. Another one who dodges around stirring up different groups against each other to profit from it. A disgusting man.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  16th March 2019

              Trump is far more hated than hating. Even by you. It’s strange how folk manage to transfer their own deficiencies to their opponents.

            • Gezza

               /  16th March 2019

              Yes. He does it all the time. Started that even before he started campaigning. His supporters do it too. Make excuses

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  16th March 2019

              It’s a factual observation, not an excuse, and you can’t evade it.

            • Gezza

               /  16th March 2019

              That’s what I’m telling YOU. You can’t see it because of your blinkers.

      • patu

         /  16th March 2019

        Fair enough, your call Pete. My intention is not to promote it, quite the opposite in fact. As C said,

        it provides a good insight into this guys background and transformation into an extremist willing to kill

        I’m actually quite disgusted by some of the comments I’ve seen on Facebook regarding the victims. While I personally have even less time for Islam than any other organised religion, NOBODY deserves what he did.

        Reply
        • The Consultant

           /  16th March 2019

          Twenty years ago there was considerable debate at the NYT about whether they should publish the manifesto of the Unibomber. Same arguments as seen here, but they eventually decided to do it.

          The result was that his brother and others recognised the arguments and the style, and the Unibomber was finally caught.

          But in hindsight a lot of people from different ideological and political perspectives also came to see the publication as bringing to light a lot of assumptions and arguments about our modern society that actually did need to be discussed.

          Of course it was easier in that case as he truly was “Lone Wolf” in terms of being influenced or influencing others.

          Reply
      • Mother

         /  16th March 2019

        This is unfair on Lauren Southern, Pete. Who will police you? I have not followed Miss Southern but I can’t let your slur go. Wrong. Do you know her?

        Yesterday’s criminals premeditated and committed atrocities for more basic reasons than getting their ideas from a gentle lady like Miss Southern.

        The internet is a minefield. You cannot police it.

        But we can police it. I’d like you to consider another way of pursuing your good deeds through hosting YourNZ. Just let it all go. Let people post whatever they like, including that man’s ranting manifesto. Then if it gets too much for you, you could consider giving up on YourNZ? Perhaps you’re just not strong enough for doing the good you wish to do. And of course you’re not strong enough to hold back the tide of evil singlehandedly.

        In treating people like babies who must be spoon fed, or wrapped in cotton wool, you will add to the woes.

        You could leave YourNZ to police itself. You might learn something. Just an idea, suggested in the love of Christ (and always with gratitude for how you returned my free speech when the churches stripped it away.)

        I think that if older folk have time to blog, it would be good for them to make sure their act is clean (and welcoming of others) and then stand guard against hatred.

        Communication is largely non verbal. It is common for people to take offence online when non was intended by the messenger. The emotions that are exposed online reveal stupidity, and that people are lonely and fearful. Is this the legacy older folk want to leave?

        I have suggested it before – older folk could blog with students during class time. It could be invaluable.

        Childishness vs Child-like ness. Do we know the difference?

        I think that the only thing you should police is when you personally perceive trolling. As one individual, this is the best you can do online with your own blog.

        Trolling is an interesting concept too. If you banished everyone whom YOU perceive is a troll, God knows you would be unable to uphold free speech. You’re not the rescuer Pete. Yesterday’s pain is huge. Something must snap.

        Jesus Christ is the Victor. (I have zero intention to annoy. I just need to finish on positivity for my own sake.)

        Reply
      • Wayne

         /  16th March 2019

        Pete,

        I realise that this is a bit of a difficult test today, but I reckon you should err on the side of strictness in deleting/warning people who have overly political posts today.

        In a time of national mourning, people need to be more respectful on line. It is why the PM and the Leader of the Opposition have joined forces today. To show unity. I am sure they have already had a conversation on gun control, which is urgently necessary.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  16th March 2019

          I believe we should let emotions settle and facts emerge before trying to draw conclusions. But I don’t believe in artificially enforcing that.

          Reply
  5. Blazer

     /  16th March 2019

    lay the blame for the the stoking of Islamaphobia at the feet of the 2 war criminals…Bush and Blair…and their ‘handlers’.

    Reply
    • Patzcuaro

       /  16th March 2019

      The end result of their military action hasn’t been increased security or peace.

      Reply
  6. Finbaar Rustle

     /  16th March 2019

    At times like this there is a tendency to make
    very broad brush comments based on emotion.
    History shows that to be a very temporary phase.
    It would be wise to delay any quintessential fundamental
    change narratives for many weeks or even months.
    What happened yesterday is for NZ an isolated occurrence
    a first in fact for the post 1820-65 colonization era.
    NZ has had many social and political changes these past 150 years
    yet thankfully almost no deaths, amazing really.
    We have had mass shootings tho before remember.
    But they were not politically driven.
    Masterton, Every Street, Aramoana.
    On this occasion it appears to be a right wing agenda driving the narrative
    but could quite easily have been from the left re the Tuhoe armed group of 2007.
    This type of direct action by angry men saving the world according to some
    vague cobbled together justifying philosophy
    happens some where every week on the world stage.
    In the aftermath bubble every one competes to sound profound.
    Promises are made new dawns are predicted but history shows that
    in a couple of weeks time life resumes it’s normal cycle.
    I would like to suggest that politics is not a driver at all.
    It is a gender issue.
    Women don’t drive these events.
    It’s a male issue.
    It is our first domestic political mass loss of life since 1865
    and the main assailant seems to have been an Australian raised male
    with an anger issue which he has directed toward immigrants.
    So lets not be too hasty to say this country is
    on the verge of total melt down.
    It’s really too early to draw any conclusive conclusions.

    Reply
    • Trevors_elbow

       /  16th March 2019

      For once something from you sensible.

      Reply
      • Mother

         /  16th March 2019

        I don’t think so. I perceive the broad brush strokes of a church man who has failed to understand the Gospel. I perceive elderly fatigue and an unwillingness to repent of many past behaviours of harassment.

        If I perceive correctly, Mr Rustle’s seemingly sensible post (against the backdrop of all the weird ones) reveals deep issues. Depression. A sociopathic need to appear wise. Feigned humility. Unreal ‘compassion.’ Strangeness.

        Younger NZers need our elderly like never before, but is there wisdom and strong love to be found there? If not, then where do we go for wisdom now?

        Reply
  7. Patzcuaro

     /  16th March 2019

    I imagine there will be a new look at gun control.

    Reply
  8. Blazer

     /  16th March 2019

    Reply
    • Finbaar Rustle

       /  16th March 2019

      Of course we can all draw up a pyramid of any individual or group
      on any aspect of life to prove our belief.
      A diagram allowing for a wide range of perspectives
      to prosper in the same dimension would be useful.

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  16th March 2019

        well draw up one that refects your beliefs ..then.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  16th March 2019

          That’s a pyramid of ANY kind of supremacist ideology. Including state & religious supremacist ideologies.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  16th March 2019

            no..this pyramid is specific-white supremacy.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  16th March 2019

              It has its equivalents in all racist and other supremacist ideologies. You find these attitudes and practices in many countries. It lurks in the human psyche of haters everywhere.

            • Blazer

               /  16th March 2019

              @G…so what…it is what it..is.

              Anyone can argue black is white …and often ..do.

            • Gezza

               /  16th March 2019

              So … this prick is to be condemned, & but so are all the others who aren’t white racists and supremacists in the world, and, while now is the time to focus on an arsehole white supremacist mass murderer, let’s not lose sight of all the others in the world we are silent about, but AlJazeera is not..

        • Finbaar Rustle

           /  16th March 2019

          Democracy is a decent model. Not always perfect and occasionally abused by a minority but generally works well.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  16th March 2019

            ‘Introducing’ democracy and freedom …seems to have serious…ramifications.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  16th March 2019

              It certainly doesn’t work well when it’s imposed in countries where when you take the dictatorship lid off they murder each other in droves because of their religious and ethnic animosities.

              Something those war criminals Bush Blair Cheney Rumsfeld & their enablers don’t get or don’t care about.

    • Gerrit

       /  16th March 2019

      Very simplistic, as Finbaar Rustle says, you could attach that pyramid to any racial, religious of demographic groups of people.

      For example this mosque attack was carried out by religious Islamic’s at the top of their particular pyramid.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/25/why-muslim-extremists-attacked-this-mosque-in-egypt/?utm_term=.ec96c1920437

      Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  16th March 2019

      The pyramid is just an attempt to smear and stereotype anyone the author disagrees with. Typical pseudo-intellectual tactic.

      Reply
  9. wooden goat

     /  16th March 2019

    Just a question here – does “free speech” include facts?

    There is a well-known Russian joke about Lenin, Stalin and Brezhnev being on a train that breaks down. The eventual punchline is that Brezhnev says “lets just pull the blinds down and pretend we are moving”.
    Banning of facts would seem to be similar to that.

    Reply
    • It is well known that people trying to perpetuate hate and division claim that they should be free to disseminate ‘facts’. The problem is, a lot of what they spread is fake, badly slanted or grossly distorted.

      Something cherry picked from a website is not necessarily a fact, whether you claim it as one or not.

      Reply
      • Duker

         /  16th March 2019

        Yes. he doesnt even get his analogy right – It would Lenin Stalin and Trotsky- but of course fake analogy is all part of the way people like goat work.
        Is it me or is there a sudden arrival of non Nzers on Your NZ ?

        Reply
  10. Gerrit

     /  16th March 2019

    “For free speech to prevail hate speech must be condemned and contained”

    I have a problem in that those who define what “hate speech” is, control the narrative on what “free speech” is. We don’t need any more Massey University “free speech” restrictions (restrictions that do not include having Tama Iti as “activist in residence”).

    One of the consequences of controlling the narrative is that alternative visions are forced underground.

    To be honed and polished, out of public view and in secret, as was the case with the perpetrator in Christchurch yesterday.

    It is a fine line to be sure.

    Hope we all can enjoy a festive St Patrick’s Day tomorrow and start a rebuild in at least, our own psyche.

    Reply
    • “I have a problem in that those who define what “hate speech” is’

      That’s certainly a challenge, and it is something that is abused, often confused with little more than disagreement.

      These are complex issues, but somehow we have to find better ways of dealing with them.

      Reply
    • Duker

       /  16th March 2019

      When we had Hone Harawira ‘deplatformed’ from speaking at Auckland University law school by activists associated with the Young Nats- they were ‘encouraged’ by the likes of Farrar who lauded the ‘right to protest’
      Which side were you on back in 2012 Gerrit,

      Reply
      • Gerrit

         /  16th March 2019

        It is not a matter of taking sides in the manner I think you are referring to (you inferring I would have agreed with the Young Nats viewpoint).

        Harawira should have total freedom to expose his views. As should Don Brash.

        It could well be that the Young Nats started a precedence that has no place in a free society. A precedence that should never be accepted in any discussion forum.

        Be interesting if in today’s hate speech climate if Harawiras utterance at the time of calling other Maori MPs “house niggers” is acceptable as free speech?

        https://yournz.org/2012/09/06/harawira-denies-calling-mps-niggers/

        Reply
  11. sorethumb

     /  16th March 2019

    Buchanan is wrong. As seen with Southern and Molyneux they cut a line casting out valid points. When you do that people find out as on social media and Youtube people are aware of what is being banned and want to decide for themselves. They will just distrust the authorities and MSM even more. As Chris Trotter asked: “Do we just not have the answers to the right?”

    Reply
    • “Southern and Molyneux they cut a line casting out valid points”

      They send different messages to different people, trying to influence people (as well as their own bank accounts), but denying any responsibility for what attitudes and actions they may aid and abet.

      Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  16th March 2019

        [Deleted. Not going to get led into these old arguments here. PG]

        Reply
        • sorethumb

           /  16th March 2019

          I wasn’t going to argue them I was just pointing an arrow at them?

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  16th March 2019

            Southern in a way mirrored what Tarrant did – he drove down Chritschurch streets shooting at what ‘looked like muslims’
            She went out on Melbourne streets with a camera after ‘what looked like antifa’ to badger.
            Both were using social media to gain attention for themselves

            Reply
            • sorethumb

               /  16th March 2019

              And they both wore shoes!

            • Mother

               /  16th March 2019

              You don’t know Miss Southern.

              Why is it that when gentle people (my perspective, I don’t know for sure) expose evil, they get labelled as harassers and attention seekers?

              Christian people are supposed to expose evil. This is community spirit.

              What exactly is our ideology? No one has anything positive to contribute here. More ‘banning’ is negative.

              Wayne suggests that the nation is in mourning. No we’re not. Mourners don’t bicker and mourners have no need for a referee to lay down the rules about how to mourn.

              Mourning is a spiritual matter yet whenever I remind you all that Jesus is the Victor, and whenever I ask you to consider your Christianity or not, many of you react harshly and/or mocking.

              You can’t have it both ways. If you want to be Kiwis who practise tolerance within the privilege of secular society, you will need to get your head around what Christianity is and what you personally are going to do about Church.

              Mourn individually and with those who have your back. I could not mourn re the mosque crimes with people who bicker/belittle/push political agenda. I can decide this for myself.

              The nation is not in mourning. The nation has turmoil broiling. Just keep talking. Please don’t try to lay down the ‘appropriate’ talking path for others Pete.

            • Duker

               /  16th March 2019

              Shut the fuck up! How about that for a talking path

            • Mother

               /  16th March 2019

              Poor Duker. He forgets that it’s highly probable he might know me as a quiet person.

              Not too much mourning going on in your mind eh Duker? What happened to the nation mourning together? Some people’s hatred can hardly pause long enough to care about those who hurt.

              How on earth is PG going to police his desire for only positive comments? (The topic of this thread Duker).

  12. Alan Wilkinson

     /  16th March 2019

    I don’t expect much will change. Probably some gun regulations tightened and I would like to think some greater mutual tolerance between religious beliefs. Also Ardern will have won more respect and Australians lost some. But I think most New Zealanders will go on treating each other kindly but valuing our independence and freedoms. Security services will have to trawl the dark net harder in their search for killers.

    Reply
    • Conspiratoor

       /  16th March 2019

      Tightening gun regs is a useless gesture Al. Just another smoke screen for pollutes to crow about. It won’t stop extremists on either side getting hold of a semi automatic rifle, knife, truck or whatever to slaughter innocents

      As unpalatable as it is we have to put the pc bs aside and go back to some root cause analysis. I’m sure you are well acquainted with this methodology 🙂

      Reply
    • Mother

       /  16th March 2019

      What do you mean by greater tolerance for various religious beliefs?

      The murderer believes in Nordic mythology. His mother believes in the healing power of crystals.

      Tolerance is always helpful, but acceptance of religions which prove time and again to be problematic to civil communities is either evil or ignorant.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  16th March 2019

        I would hope that those practicing all religions in this country would do so without the belief and delusion that theirs is the only true religion.

        Reply
        • Mother

           /  16th March 2019

          Only a fool would practise a certain religion while harbouring doubt that it is the only true way to go.

          The other kind of fool is the one whose religious fervour leads to acts of hatred.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  16th March 2019

            Living with doubt is the essence of intelligence.

            Reply
            • Mother

               /  16th March 2019

              I agree.
              I doubt a lot! Not because I’m intelligent. Because I’m thinking.

              Too much doubt is crippling. Something has to give, and it cannot be your intelligence.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  16th March 2019

              Yes, managing doubt is the trick to life – the art of drawing sufficient conclusions from insufficient evidence.

      • Blazer

         /  16th March 2019

        just keep believing that there’s a man in the sky that has 10 things he doesn’t want you to..do.

        Reply
  13. Gezza

     /  16th March 2019

    I’ve just finished reading through his entire manifesto and the thing that makes me maddest is that he’s not even interested in provoking disharmony and an anti-Islamic race war here. His attack was carried out here simply because it was so easy. The whole thing was staged here only to provoke & trigger off similar attacks in Europe, Australia and the US.

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  16th March 2019

      I note he compared himself with..Nelson Mandela..once deemed a murderer and terrorist.

      He was too gutless to die…can’t think of the best punishment for this piece of shit.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  16th March 2019

        The best punishment would be to realise what an atrocity he has committed and have to live his life with that agony.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  16th March 2019

          He smirked throughout his court appearance and made some kind of white supremacist sign with a manacled hand. One read through of his manifeston will tell you he is experiencing no agony. He is a committed white supremacist jihadi.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  16th March 2019

            I’m sure he isn’t suffering guilt now but I hope for the future.

            Reply
  14. unitedtribes2

     /  16th March 2019

    I don’t read everything on here Pete but im surprised you say there is an element of hate speech here. Iv never seen it myself. Perhaps Gezza terrorises Blazer sometimes but thats the worst of it.

    Reply
    • patu

       /  16th March 2019

      IMHO that’s the best of it

      Reply
    • Mother

       /  16th March 2019

      No, that’s not the worst of it. That’s just chummy banter.

      The worst of it is that there is not enough sympathy for Christianity in our nation.

      Jacinda donning the head covering to talk to Muslims was cringe worthy. Her neck remained seen.

      Christianity is the only religion where grace is free, neither contrived nor forced.

      Find a real thinking Christian nearby to you and listen carefully.

      Reply
      • patu

         /  16th March 2019

        As loathe as I am to agree with you Mother, seeing Jaz wearing headgear did not sit well with me either.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  16th March 2019

          yes very unusual to see a European woman wear a …scarf.

          Reply
          • patupaiarehe

             /  16th March 2019

            I guess it was a sign of respect for the beliefs of the dead

            Reply
            • Mother

               /  16th March 2019

              It was tokenism and condescending.

              She is not a Muslim. She is an ex Mormon.

              I think Jacinda exemplifies our lack of knowing what being Kiwi means. In that way, she’s a leader for the times. Confusing times.

              Christianity is pure compassion and uncomplicated.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  16th March 2019

              IMHO you do not show respect by pretending to discard your own principles and culture.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  16th March 2019

              The proper way to do this would be to offer her a scarf when she entered the mosque and for her to give it back when she left. But for meeting in other places it was inappropriate.

            • Griff.

               /  17th March 2019

              1 Corinthians 11:2-16
              2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

            • Mother

               /  17th March 2019

              Are you for real Griff?

              I suppose you’ll be glad to know that I pray with my head covered (I have hair on my head and my appearance is one of a woman who accepts her place in life – that I am equal with any other under Christ).

              Why did you do that? To start a conversation about how Islam allows men to treat women with disrespect? To talk about how to pray?

              I feel very annoyed by your post. How is scripture taken out of context helping anything, and at a time when many people seek comfort?
              You misrepresent Jesus Christ whose love for us is free grace and whose desires for us can be discovered by honest Biblical exegesis, which even a child may practise.

              Oh, and just for you too – you’ll also be glad to know that I am a submissive wife.

              Your comment is either a sick joke, or you yourself have a lot to learn.

              Don’t try to lump me in with people whom profess Christ but whom deny His powerful love and whom worry that perhaps He is not victorious to save many. I am one of those Uncomplaining Courageous whom others might find around our country who talk sensibly about Christianity.

              What did people used to say to me here? That YourNZ is not the ‘audience’ for me? Then what do people have to say to a person whom dives in with scripture taken out of context in this thread?

              The issue is that a deranged yet lucid man has committed atrocity against Muslim people in our country and it hurts like crazy. How will we react?

              Islam is a dangerous religion. Individuals, please consider Christianity – the Uncomplaining Courageous version, not the past baby version.

            • PartisanZ

               /  17th March 2019

              You’d be hard-pushed to find a ‘religion’ or religious-based society more dangerous than Christianity or Western Christendom …

  15. patupaiarehe

     /  16th March 2019

    I am in utter disbelief right now, as I imagine are close to 5 million other souls, who choose to call this beautiful country their home. The unfortunate difference between myself & most others, is that I was foolish enough to succumb to ‘the Streisand effect’, and actively search for what I was supposedly not allowed to see. And now I can’t ‘unsee’ it.
    The ‘alleged’ offender was wearing a GoPro camera, from beginning to end. He walked up to the front door of a place of worship, armed with a semi-automatic rifle & several full ‘banana’ magazines, and began firing at those seated just inside the doorway, before shooting a guy in the back who was running away from him. One guy came close to overpowering him, but got shot at point blank range. I don’t see any point in going into detail about what happened next, other than to say I knew that several dozen people were dead, some of whom were children, well before it was announced on the news. And now I can’t get those few minutes out of my head.
    I just can’t understand how anyone could do this.

    Reply
  16. Pink David

     /  17th March 2019

    “This will mean challenging and preventing hate speech and division more, and putting more of a priority on safe acceptable speech. That this may reduce the ‘free speech’ of some is a small price to pay for making New Zealand a better place to live.”

    Good luck with these ideas. I believe they are profoundly misguided and wrong. This will achieve nothing but a reduction in freedom, and more places for evil to rise.

    You think this has a small price, I think it’s far, far more costly that that.

    I’ll leave you with some wisdom from Douglas Murray;

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/03/15/new-zealand-the-barbarism-of-identity-politics/?utm_source=Weekly+newsletter&utm_campaign=1310610989-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_03_15_06_43&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7e9712ba33-1310610989-80961789

    Reply
    • Unfettered freedom to spout hate and division, and to make excuses for heinous acts, works against overall freedoms and peace.

      Reply
      • Pink David

         /  17th March 2019

        “Unfettered freedom to spout hate and division, and to make excuses for heinous acts, works against overall freedoms and peace.”

        If you think that suppressing speech will in any way improve freedoms and peace, you are a fool.

        Reply
        • Speech is already ‘suppressed’ (limited) in many ways, for a variety of reasons. It is not unfettered.

          Call me a fool if you like, but I think it’s far more foolish to to allow ‘unfettered’ hate speech and incitement to division and violence than having some limitations and protections.

          A Christchurch teenager was arrested after Friday’s mosque shooting for allegedly inciting racial or ethnic hatred.

          A court document said the teen had intended to “excite hostility or ill-will” against people in New Zealand on the grounds of colour, race, ethnic or national origins by publishing written material, which is insulting.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/111334495/christchurch-man-arrested-for-enticing-racial-or-ethnic-hate

          Do you think that sort of thing should be should be unfettered?
          People can be and are encouraged to do awful things by the supporting and legitimising speech of others.

          The Christchurch mass murderer is likely to have been encouraged to do what he did by the speech of others. I don’t think it’s foolish to look at ways of trying to address that.

          Reply
          • Mother

             /  17th March 2019

            YourNZ already does great service for looking at ways to address unfettered hate speech. You are serving community as it is PG.

            The more law and organised policing we have, the more there is to rebel against.

            Insulting material can be dealt with by the community around the haters.

            Everyone on social media who has ever angrily insulted another person is complicit in Friday’s murder by your standard.

            The murderer had radicalised thought processes despite community suspecting nothing. Policing this is impossible without community vigilance.

            Perhaps if the internet was overrun by radicals, the moderate majority might stay clear and spend their time practising Christianity with hospitality, and draw radicals away from their isolated military posts.

            Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  17th March 2019

      Since when was old-fashioned National Party ‘farmers and employers’ and Labour Party ‘working-class’ NOT identity politics?

      Since when was politics NOT identity politics?

      Reply
      • Pink David

         /  17th March 2019

        “Since when was old-fashioned National Party ‘farmers and employers’ and Labour Party ‘working-class’ NOT identity politics?”

        The stupidity of this statement makes my brain hurt.

        Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  17th March 2019

      Sadly, like “one law for all” meaning only English Law, “new humanist politics” means only European or Western politics …

      Reply
      • Mother

         /  17th March 2019

        You’re right Parti. Humanism has been, and is, a huge problem in the churches. I’m truly sorry. If I hadn’t been abused into silence in my youth I might have been able to make a positive difference.

        And here we are – doubters, vulnerable and fearful. This is the position from which Christianity for the Uncomplaining Courageous becomes real. I might add….angry? That’s useful too.

        Reply

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