Seymour, Ghahraman, identity politics, white supremacy

Since the Christchurch attacks there has been a lot of diversions into allegations and debates over white supremacy and identity politics, two quite vague terms.

Twp MPs, Act’s David Seymour and Green Golriz Ghahraman had this exchange on Twitter.

I don’t think these sorts of discussions are very productive but they probably need to be aired.

56 Comments

  1. david in aus

     /  29th March 2019

    White Supremacists love identity politics. It is the basis of their group. It emboldens them.

    The solution is seeing people as individuals first.

  2. david in aus

     /  29th March 2019

    As a person from a non-“White” background, I find the term “White-Privilege” toxic and divisive.
    There is no doubt, one’s membership of a certain class and the dominant group bring about some advantages when people’s tendency is to judge of first impressions.

    The solution is concentration on Martin Luther King’s message and emphasize people’s character and not on their so-called membership of a certain group.

    • Finbaar Rustle

       /  29th March 2019

      “emphasize people’s character and not on their
      so-called membership of a certain group”
      For that to work there should be no political parties.
      Every one would have to stand as an independent.
      Candidates would not be allowed to express
      any view on any issue pre election.
      Worth a try.

      • david in aus

         /  29th March 2019

        You are not logical. Political parties should be on ideas not on identity.
        Last thing we need is a White party, Asian party, Pacific Island party, or Left-handed Red-headed with Brown eyes party. That is a recipe for disaster and inter-ethnic violence, that is where identity politics will lead to.

        • Finbaar Rustle

           /  29th March 2019

          “Last thing we need is a White party?”.
          National has been the White peoples party for 75 years.
          Wake up or have you been in deep contemplation all your life?

          • David in aus

             /  29th March 2019

            The National party ethnic makeup is more reflective of NZ’s population than any others.
            What evidence do you have?

          • Maggy Wassilieff

             /  29th March 2019

            Off hand, Nat MPs that are not “White”:
            Simon Bridges, Paula Bennett, Alfred Ngaro, Melissa Lee, Kanwaljit Bakshi, Jian Yang, Shane Reti, Nuk Karako, Parmjeet Parmar, Jo Hayes, Harete Hipango, Dan Bidois, Agnes Loheni.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  29th March 2019

              Most of Finbaar’s comments can be put out with the garbage. Very occasionally s/he says something sensible but this is not it.

            • Finbaar Rustle

               /  29th March 2019

              A few fake Maori has always been Nationals policy. None of them are Maori. They are white Maori chosen because they became Pakeha which is what National defines as a good Maori.

            • Gerrit

               /  29th March 2019

              Finbaar Rustle,..Doubling down.

              Racism to denigrate some Maori because they are in the perceived “wrong” political party?

              Not much sign of Arderns “inclusiveness” being shown here by a Green party supporter.

              Much Pakehaphobia and now also UncleTomPhobia.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  29th March 2019

              I wish that people would read the book and see what Uncle Tom was really like !!!!!!!

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  29th March 2019

              At one point, he’s told that he’s going to be freed and is delighted. His master’s a bit taken aback, and says (rightly) that he has a good life with that family (unlike some other slaves in the book) Tom says that he’d rather have a poor house, poor clothes, poor everything and know that they were his than have the best of everything and know that it belonged to another man.

              This is not the only place where he speaks his mind. There is nothing servile about him, and he has been much maligned by the ignorant.

            • Duker

               /  29th March 2019

              Most of those Mps were headhunted to stand , not really part of the party.”
              Alfred Ngaro, Melissa Lee, Kanwaljit Bakshi, Jian Yang, Shane Reti, Nuk Karako, Parmjeet Parmar, Jo Hayes, Harete Hipango, Dan Bidois, Agnes Loheni.”

              Agnes Loheni- Until the party bigwigs approached and offered a captains pick spot on the list she wouldnt have ever been to a national party meeting. The previous ‘pacific islands slot went to Misa Fia Turner, who didnt quite make it to parliament.
              Same happened to Jian Yang

              David Lange used to tell the story when once his opponent in Mangere was Clem Simich ” who arrived to a meeting in Rolls Royce with a Bentley in tow”

              Lange urged Clem to do another drive around the suburb !

            • Gerrit

               /  29th March 2019

              Kitty, I think the expression “Uncle Tom” has a different meaning than you portray.

              From Wikipedia;

              “The term “Uncle Tom” is used as a derogatory epithet for an excessively subservient person, particularly when that person perceives their own lower-class status based on race. It is similarly used to negatively describe a person who betrays their own group by participating in its oppression, whether or not they do so willingly.[1][11] The term has also, with more intended neutrality, been applied in psychology in the form “Uncle Tom syndrome”, a term for the use of subservience, appeasement and passivity to cope with intimidation and threats. ”

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom

              For me Finbaar Rustle is showing racism by describing Maori representatives in the National party as “fake Maori”.

              Particularly

              ” It is similarly used to negatively describe a person who betrays their own group by participating in its oppression, ”

              As far as FinBaar Rustle is concerned, their fake Maori voices don’t count as they are not have the subservience to his point of view.

              How patronising and racist is that?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  29th March 2019

              I know how it’s used and what the users mean, but it’s a gross insult to a book whose aim was to show the evils of slavery; hardly likely to contain a main character who was happy to be one and agreed with it.

              It’s credited with helping to start the American Civil War.

              The writer showed some good slave owners as well as ones like Simon Legree, but makes it clear that this does not make slavery, the owning of human beings, acceptable. It’s a great book, As a devout Christian, Tom accepts his place in life, but it’s made obvious that he doesn’t like it any more than a white person would. Hence his saying that he wouldn’t mind how poor he was if he was free.

  3. Gerrit

     /  29th March 2019

    Greens are showing the classic symptoms of Pakehaphobia.

    Led by their Pakehaphopic leader Davidson.

    • Finbaar Rustle

       /  29th March 2019

      National has been a Pakeha party for 75 years.

      • Corky

         /  29th March 2019

        What has that to do with the price of fish..apart from nothing?

        • Finbaar Rustle

           /  29th March 2019

          Why did you not write the same on Gerrit’s post above?
          Showing your right wing anti non white bias as usual.

          • Corky

             /  29th March 2019

            Because Gerrit has a valid point. You don’t. Davidson has made her views well know in the media.

            Do National suffer from Pakehaphobia…do they hate themselves?

            Showing your muddled inconsequential opinions again.?

            • Finbaar Rustle

               /  29th March 2019

              What a pathetic answer.
              You simply confirm your whites are right bias.

            • Corky

               /  29th March 2019

              When you can’t think of a rational reply ..and resort to inanities like Kitty – it’s time to move on. Look, do yourself a favour. You have well and truly received your lumps today. Why not crawl away and come back tomorrow refreshed? Like Joe Bloggs..and me on occasions when the ‘Hive’ have worked me over.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  29th March 2019

              You can’t bear it that someone challenges your nonsense and lies, and have to insult them. A liar must be prepared to have their lies challenged. I suspect that inanities is yet another word whose meaning you don’t know. You trot it out at totally inappropriate times and places and think it’s the last word in repartee. It isn’t unless it’s used properly.

              It must be galling when someone refutes your inaccuracies and falsehoods, but that’s the price you pay for sloppy thinking and not checking to see if the real story has been documented !

      • High Flying Duck

         /  29th March 2019

        The history of treaty settlements belies that statement.

        • Finbaar Rustle

           /  29th March 2019

          Its a fact simple. 99% of Maori people don’t vote National

          • David in aus

             /  29th March 2019

            Your facts sounds like opinions. Always dangerous if you can’t tell them apart.
            99% is not a fact. I am not sure what your point is. If one were to say the majority of National voters are men, it doesn’t mean it is an anti-women party.

            • Finbaar Rustle

               /  29th March 2019

              Your opinion of my facts sound like opinion.
              No danger to me as I know fact from fiction.
              How about you?
              99% is a fact.
              You do know what my point is your just trying to hide that’s all.
              If 97% of national party voters were men then
              yes I would say National was anti women.
              Would you?
              Need to do better.

            • Gerrit

               /  29th March 2019

              Is it possible to provide a link that confirms your “fact” ?

              According to this report; 13% of Maori (counting only Maori in Maori seats, not counting those on the general roll) voted National.

              National only went for the list vote standing no representatives.

              https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/what-the-data-tells-us-m-ori-and-pacific-voters-throw-support-behind-labour.html

              “The seven seats National performed the worst in were the seven Māori electorates, where it took less than 13 percent of the party vote.

              Not only were they the electorates with the lowest percentage of the National party vote, National did worse in all of the seats compared to 2014.

              It got just 4.9 percent of the party vote in its worst-performing electorate – Ikaroa-Rāwhiti.

              National didn’t stand candidates in any Māori seats and all of them saw a huge swing towards Labour.”

      • Next time you look at a $50 note, there’s a National MP on it named Sir Apirana Ngata. Just saying.

        • Finbaar Rustle

           /  29th March 2019

          Whats your point.

        • Blazer

           /  30th March 2019

          ‘In 1905 Ngata was elected to Parliament representing Eastern Māori. He was to retain the seat until 1943. ‘

          The NZ National Party was formed in 1936……just sayin.

          • Yes, Ngata was elected as the National member for Eastern Maori in 1938. Prior to that, he caucused with the coalition that became National, and served as Deputy Prime Minister in its government.

            Every time I mention online that Ngata was National, some wiseass tries to equivocate, but he was, pretty unambiguously by any objective measure.

            • Blazer

               /  31st March 2019

              so 5 years as a National M.P and 33 years when he was NOT a National M.P.Very good.

            • Oh look, here comes the wiseass now. The same situation applies to former Prime Minister Gordon Coates, so not sure what your point is.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  29th March 2019

      Golriz just showing normal Lefty nastiness and ad hominems. That’s what they live by and fantasize it is moral superiority.

      • Finbaar Rustle

         /  29th March 2019

        Why did you not criticise Gerrit’s post above?
        Showing your pro white anti non white bias again

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  29th March 2019

          What’s non-white about the Left?

          Oh, just the mindless way they chant racism at anyone who challenges them?

          • Finbaar Rustle

             /  29th March 2019

            Still have not answered the question..straw man … you really have no clue

            • Gerrit

               /  29th March 2019

              The unsaid nuance that I put into my comment is that Pakehaphobia equates to Islamophobia, has plainly passed you by.

              Your straw man argument that National = Whites only is quite frankly…racist on your part.

              Unless you are a of the opinion that only Pakeha can be racist?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  29th March 2019

              You have no clue. If you read it again you will see my response does answer your question as well as challenge your silly rudeness

  4. Finbaar Rustle

     /  29th March 2019

    You simply wrote
    “Greens are showing the classic symptoms of Pakehaphobia.
    Led by their Pakehaphopic leader Davidson”.
    Nothing passed me by.
    There is no “usual nuance” in your comment equating
    Pakehaphobia to Islamophobia,
    Yet another train wreck of a comment posted by you
    which when challenged you then try to drag
    your train wreck comment back on to the tracks
    with some reference to some imaginary unstated “nuance”.
    Farcical..
    Try and do better.

    • Gerrit

       /  29th March 2019

      “Nothing passed me by”…well this one did.

  5. Maggy Wassilieff

     /  29th March 2019

    I’m always surprised how few people know of NZ Labour Party’s history with regard to refugees/immigration.
    Whites.. and of the Anglo-saxon version were preferred.
    https://teara.govt.nz/en/history-of-immigration/page-13

    Jews definitely not on the favoured list.
    http://www.holocaustcentre.org.nz/uploads/1/1/5/2/115245341/ann-beaglehole-jewish-refugees-in-nz.pdf

    Displaced persons from Hitler’s Europe/Soviet expansion were a no-no during 1945-49.
    In 1946, the Labour Government refused entry to Holocaust survivors, blaming the “housing situation”, even though the Jewish community offered to house the refugees.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/106655221/labour-raised-expectations-on-refugee-quota-it-should-deliver

    There was a change of philosophy in 1949 when the Nats came into power…. that’s when the in-laws (an off-shade of white) arrived.

    • Corky

       /  29th March 2019

      Seems nothing much has changed regarding Jews and people who support Labour if comments on this and other blogs are anything to go by.

    • Finbaar Rustle

       /  29th March 2019

      NZ had a whites only immigration policy from 1840 through 1960.

      [You have to stop making unsupported claims like this, especially when they’re obviously wrong. PG]

      • David in aus

         /  29th March 2019

        When in a hole, stop digging. When you make things up your credibility is shot.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  29th March 2019

          If only more people who post would learn this and not go on bluffing and being abusive when challenged. There have been a few of these here; Mr Man(iac) who became very abusive because peas were not vegetables in his opinion was one, and so was Oliver who used supposed personal experience to back up his statements. There’s always at least one.

        • Finbaar Rustle

           /  29th March 2019

          You right wingers have been well and truly hammered by me today.
          Been like a turkey shoot.
          Yeha.

      • Finbaar Rustle

         /  29th March 2019

        Nope I am right.

        [Deleted. You haven’t supplied any evidence to support your claims, and I think your claims are inaccurate. PG

        • Gerrit

           /  30th March 2019

          You are about as factual correct in those immigration assertions as you were with your “99% of Maori do not vote for National” false factoid.

          Dug out my old pre 1960 school photos and noticed a far greater mix of immigrants than you said was possible.

          But than again I was bought up in the melting pot that is Mangere and South Auckland. Not in Dunedin.

    • Jay3

       /  30th March 2019

      Exactly. The Labour Party’s hero Mickey Savage actively tried to prevent the immigration to NZ of Chinese and “Hindoos” as he called them and gave preference to Anglo Saxons migrants while he was in Parliament.

      • Blazer

         /  30th March 2019

        how do you pronounce Hindu?

        • Corky

           /  30th March 2019

          “Hindoos”

        • Jay3

           /  30th March 2019

          He was referring to people from India as any reasonably intelligent person would have deduced. A rather lame attempt to avoid addressing the point I raised about the Labour Party having form when it comes to trying to clamp down on non-white immigration.

          • Blazer

             /  30th March 2019

            sorry…I’m ‘unreasonably’ ..intelligent…😊

  1. Seymour, Ghahraman, identity politics, white supremacy — Your NZ – NZ Conservative Coalition