“Stop infantilising us. I personally hate the Rainbow whanau/family nonsense.”

Some sensible words from @aniobrien on the Israel Folau fallout, and some strong words to Green MPs, who are politicising lesbians and gays, on their “Rainbow whanau/family” nonsense.

Just as there are diverse gender and sexuality preferences, there are diverse views within the LABC…XYZ – everyone who is not purely heterosexual (if that exists) – groups, communities and individuals.

I’m not a lesbian or gay but I agree with what Ani says about Israel Folau’s insistence that anyone who doesn’t ‘repent’ follow his beliefs will go to some sort of hell.

Dismissing Folau is entirely the decision of Rugby Australia and it is likely that he breached his contract with them by bringing the sport into disrepute. This is simply Folau reaping the consequences of his actions. This isn’t the first time he has courted controversy.

Folau has rightly been publicly condemned, however I don’t think his speech should be subject to legal measures. It is not illegal to be offensive. It is not illegal to practice religion. Nor should it be.

Just as I have a right to call Folau a religious nutbar with a habit of hypocrisy who is reaping what he has sowed, he has the right to say I am going to hell for being a total homo. Hilarious because hell doesn’t exist!

Hell is a threat rather than a place. It’s been used as the ultimate bogeyman, a place equivalent of Knecht Ruprecht just as heaven is a place equivalent of Saint Nicholas/Santa – age old threat/reward trick.

Ani then lays into politicians who are politicising homosexuality.

There has been a lot of pearl clutching by heterosexual politicians invested in portraying lesbians and gays as fragile and on the precipice of suicide. I really wish they would cut it out. We are one of the most resilient groups of people on the planet.

I have a few messages for NZ politicians who’re politicising me & other lesbians and gays:

  1. Stop with the irresponsible suicide rhetoric. All research shows that this creates a self-fulfilling prophecy and risks contagion. You can support us without invoking dodgy suicide stats.
  2. Stop infantilising us. I personally hate the “Rainbow whanau/family” nonsense. Partly because our “community” has never been so divided & partly because it sounds like a kindergarton play group.
  3. Stop conflating transgenderism with homosexuality. Folau didn’t even mention trans people. We are not synonymous. We are very different & piggy-backing them on to all of our issues is unhelpful.
  4. Stop hyperbolising what hate speech is. 50 people were massacred in Christchurch & when you lump in offensive speech with the hate & violence of the man responsible for the terrorist attack you insult their memory.
  5. Stop undermining free speech principles. When you censor & restrict speech it is those in power who dictate acceptability. This means minority groups & those challenging systems of oppression are the first to be silenced.
  6. Stop virtue-signalling & playing identity politics & for the love of goddess please focus on the policies that acutely affect us – you know like our planet becoming rapidly uninhabitable. I’m looking at you
  7. Start listening to all of your constituents – even those you don’t agree with.
  8. Start basing your policy decisions on science and fact not the ideology of a small minority. Most of us do not want to be governed by the religion or belief systems we don’t subscribe to. We are a secular nation.
  9. Start leading by example. Divisive messaging does not solve anything. Your mates in your (not so) secret Facebook groups might cheer you on, but it is not smart politics or good for NZ.
  10. Start speaking up. I know a great number of you can see the harm that comes from this brand of silencing, divisive identity politics. It’s time to get brave and say something.

Divisive messaging does not solve anything. Can you take that on board Marama Davidson? Golriz Gharaman?

Leave a comment

40 Comments

  1. Reply
  2. david in aus

     /  13th April 2019

    If Israel Folau is dismissed from his job and it is legal: are you able to declare your religious beliefs in public?

    His rants are stock-standard teaching of a defined religion. Although, his views have not been expressed in a way that is likely to draw in future followers; it follows conventional religious thought.

    The freedom to express your religious beliefs is a fundamental right.

    As a sinner myself: Liar at times, especially as a child, and Drunk on occasions; perhaps I should be appalled and offended. For those who are LGBTI, I do not think Folau’s Religion’s views on their sexual preferences are new or particularly confronting.

    I don’t take his pronouncements too seriously, It is a part of the rich tapestry of life.

    If his sacking is accepted as appropriate it is an assault on our common freedoms. Folau has a public profile but religious comments like his are declared in Churches, Mosques, and street-corners every day.

    Where does this end?

    Reply
    • It looks like ending up with him losing his job for breach of contract, being widely ridiculed for expressing archaic and ridiculous beliefs, and with him being able to keep saying what he wants in public, therefore limiting his future employment prospects unless he wants to be some sort of paid for preacher.

      “are you able to declare your religious beliefs in public?”

      I haven’t seen anyone try to prevent that right. Nothing has changed there.

      Reply
      • david in aus

         /  13th April 2019

        Does your employer control all your life? It is illegal for religious institutions to discriminate against sexual orientation, they cannot mandate that in their employment contract. Your employer does not own you and your thoughts especially if it is not related to your work.

        Reply
        • duperez

           /  13th April 2019

          It would be fair to say it seems numbers do think employers should control lives even stuff not related to work.

          Any time some rugby/league player is in the news for doing something bad/wrong/stupid/whatever outside their employment, the calls are for them to not be allowed to continue in their employment and the employers are attacked loud and long if they don’t chuck the offender out.

          Reply
      • PDB

         /  13th April 2019

        PG: “being widely ridiculed for expressing archaic and ridiculous beliefs”

        What happens when this is done to other religions or beliefs? Isn’t this a classic example of the double standards that currently exist (especially in the MSM)? Why are gays supposedly highly offended by his words and not atheists or drunks? Why would anybody care about going to hell if they don’t believe in hell in the first place & who cares what Folau thinks about it all?

        Reply
        • “Why are gays supposedly highly offended by his words and not atheists or drunks?”

          I haven’t particularly seen gays expressing offence. Most of what I’ve seen has been ridicule, and much of that has been from an atheist perspective like Ani here.

          Reply
          • PDB

             /  13th April 2019

            I agree, so essentially the MSM have all picked up on the ‘gays go to hell’ thing & ignored the fact he essentially said that everybody goes to hell except the most perfect god botherer. His strong religious views would be shared by a great number of Pacific Island people & would come up in their services, he isn’t some sort of one-off zealot.

            Reply
      • david in aus

         /  13th April 2019

        This is a worrying trend, a new McCarthyism. Instead of Communism, it is metastasizing into what are considered acceptable or unacceptable religious views. People being drummed out of their professions.

        Classic Salem witch hunt. You have people on the internet quick to throw accusation and condemn. Those supporting fundamental principles are few and alone.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  13th April 2019

          People challenging fundamental principles (beliefs) that are bad, wrong, & not credible is another way of looking at what’s happening here.

          His own Holy Book’s God endoses slavery & provides rules on it, including penalty for beating them – but beating a slave to death ipenalised only if the slave dies within a day or two from it.

          Nowhere does his “Saviour” say slavery – owning another human being as property, -.is wrong, or forbidden.

          So some Christians did own slaves – until empathetic people, including other Christians, & enough people in positions of power, became more moral than Jaweh & Jesus, & rejected God’s authorisation of this immoral practice. Now Christians don’t even acknowledge it’s still there, uncancelled, in their Good Book.

          Well, Izzy is now finding the same thing is happening to him. He’s copping it from people, including powerful people more truly moral than his fictional God. Ma said last night she wonders whether Maria Tuta’ia, his “great netballer” wife, agrees with him, & said she would be horribly disappointed in her if she does.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  13th April 2019

            Why do you keep saying things like ‘fictional God’, which is as provocative as the things Israel Folau says ?

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th April 2019

              Because not challenging nonsense perpetuates it.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  13th April 2019

              How do you know it’s nonsense ?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th April 2019

              The usual way. Is there any evidence? No. Is there any logic? No. Does it make any sense? No. Does it actually explain anything? No. Does it predict anything testable? No.

              = Nonsense.

            • Gezza

               /  13th April 2019

              Because someone’s put together a book about him that to all intents & purposes is plainly not factual.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  13th April 2019

              You cannot think that only one person could have written the Bible. Nobody could.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  13th April 2019

              You know that all the events in the Bible are not factual ? What about the Egyptians and Israelites ? The Roman occupation and the census ? Herod ? Pontius Pilate ? All inventions ?

            • Gezza

               /  13th April 2019

              @ Kitty

              I don’t. It was shorthand. What I mean is some people have out together various 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc – hand scrolls & scripts & fragments in various configurations & translations in to several versions & editions of a book about him. And that to all intents & purposes it is not factual.

            • Gezza

               /  13th April 2019

              You know that all the events in the Bible are not factual ? What about the Egyptians and Israelites ? The Roman occupation and the census ? Herod ? Pontius Pilate ? All inventions ?

              Some of these entities and locations and events are factual in that they clearly exist or existed. But as an Eng. Lit grad & avid reader, how many works of fiction do you have that describe & contain real entities, and locations and events as well as fictional ones, do you think, Kitty?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  13th April 2019

              I couldn’t possibly count them; have a heart. There are thousands of books here.

              But there are real events in the Bible.

              I don’t know why you are coming across as so aggressive, but wish that you wouldn’t ! It’s making conversation very difficult, as you seem to leap on what I say…it’s hurtful as Mother would say.

            • Gezza

               /  13th April 2019

              Kitty, that is not fair. I am very fond of you & you should already know that. I am not attacking you, I am defending my view & pointing out flaws I see in your criticism of it. In your view, not you.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  14th April 2019

              (blows nose hard)

              I can only say that it felt like it, but I know you’re under stress at the moment.

              Kiss and make up ?

          • Conspiratoor

             /  13th April 2019

            G, slavery is a worthwhile subject to explore in the context of christs teachings. You have to remember the bible was written during a time when slavery was normal and you will find references to this in the old testamant (pre christ). JC changed all that. There are also issues with translation between old hebrew degrees of servanthood and what we define as slavery in a modern context.

            “One of the biggest things Jesus taught was that love is the core of all God’s commandments. “Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another” (John 13:34, The Message). Slavery does not fit under “love each other.”

            In addition, Paul wrote, “Faith in Christ Jesus is what makes each of you equal with each other, whether you are a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a man or a woman” (Galatians 3:28, CEV). This would have been a radical teaching in the context of its time. In fact, there are some scholars who say it was the very first time in the history of literature that all people where declared equal!”

            https://www.christianitytoday.com/iyf/advice/goodadvice/what-does-bible-say-about-slavery.html

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  13th April 2019

              You have to remember the bible was written during a time when slavery was normal and you will find references to this in the old testamant (pre christ). JC changed all that.

              No he didn’t. Jesus is never reported to have said a word against slavery. And Jaweh could always have added an 11th commandment – “Thou shalt not own another person as property.”

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  13th April 2019

      I think that his standing down may be in part because he’s wearing the footy gear that brings the team brand into disrepute and makes it ridiculous. If he’d done it in ‘civvies’, it might have been different. .As a team member, he’s under some obligation to uphold the image of the team. He’s not in the Waikikamukau Old Boys.

      His wife is Maria Folau now, I believe.

      Reply
  3. duperez

     /  13th April 2019

    Past the free speech angle, implications on contracts with employers and all bad people going to hell, the situation is just another common case posing some age old questions.

    Why do some have an over-riding drive to corral others towards their God, the only true one? What gene, what inbuilt force is it that makes some have a missionary spirit to save people from some sort of eternal damnation and gain existence forever in some sort of euphoric state of nirvana? And determinedly try to visit their condition on others rather than let them lead their own lives as they will?

    A paradox is that while some find the missionaries spending their lives being busybodies telling others how to live their lives as sad, the missionaries see it as glorious and there being no better way to spend a life.

    Since it is a world of battles and intruding on what others want to do and how they should to live, it seems in the order of things that God will indeed win in the Folau situation. Chances are the God of Commerce via Australian Rugby through the God of Sponsorship, will beat the one in Folau’s corner.

    In that event can we expect a tweet from Folau telling those gods that hell awaits them?

    Reply
    • david in aus

       /  13th April 2019

      People talk about their religion because it is important to them. The same reason people discuss other interests: politics, sports, train-sets, mating habits of cane-toads…….

      Reply
  4. Gezza

     /  13th April 2019

    I really like Ani ! Guts, self-respect, respect for others, & way more than a few clues, judging by what she wrote in PG’s post.

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  13th April 2019

      I like some of her things, but must admit to rather liking the Rainbow image as including all of us. I like it that gay couples are being seen in ads for mortgages without a big thing being made of it. I wasn’t worried by being taken for a lesbian friend’s partner (flattered, if anything)

      I don’t know who she meant was conflating gays and trans people; that may have been a straw man in this instance.

      Is there any chance that people who think this will ever see the difference ? I don’t know who my ex’s and my friend J fancied, and it was her business, anyway (she had been a married man with a family, a sailor called John)

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  13th April 2019

        It wasn’t a real issue that someone who didn’t know X and me thought we were partners, it wasn’t anything specific but would I have made a big deal of it had I said anything when I realised that they had thought that.

        Israel F has scored an own goal here.

        I didn’t see it as anti-gay so much as condemning almost everyone (who has NEVER lied or stolen anything ?) and making him look like a judgemental fool.

        Reply
  5. Sunny

     /  13th April 2019

    Breach of contract for “expressing archaic and ridiculous beliefs”. These beliefs are taught in assembly of god and mormon church, which are given tax free charitable status by the state, of which he has been a lifelong devout follower and is common in the pacific island communities. He even believed his broken ankle was because god was punishing him. Where does the role of a contract stop. Imagine if the contract said you can be gay because that’s a human right but please just don’t post any pro-gay material, no rainbows or pictures of your gay partner on facebook because our sponsors have links with conservative cultures and they might not like it. Surely there is a limit to what a contract can control. In your personal time do you not have a right to exercise your religious, political, and sexual activities as you see fit and can we as a public not separate out a person from their job. And good on Ani Obrien for her sensible words. The best way is to reply and to educate because saying we (atheists, fornicators, gays, et al.) are all going to hell or are causing earthquakes is so patently ridiculous to 99.9999% of the population. The responses on Falaus twitter page challenged him for his comments. As it should be. And what happens to the football league and sport, “welcome to the football league where we can watch the most talented/politically correct people on the planet”.

    Reply
  6. PDB

     /  13th April 2019

    The MSM witch-hunt continues & expands as they now go after Maria Folau & in turn Netball South Australia & Netball NZ: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/netball/112008540/israel-folaus-wife-maria-folau-could-feel-implications-from-netball-over-his-antigay-posts

    Slippery slope…

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  14th April 2019

      A very slippery slope. But if media go after Maria, or her club cuts up rough, there may be a big blacklash. Surely that would wake a few people up to as to what’s going on with media and SJWs as they try to keep giving this story oxygen.

      Reply
  7. Speaking for themselves?

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  14th April 2019

      Probably a necessary first step to getting a good one in this gentleman’s circumstances.

      Reply
  8. Patzcuaro

     /  14th April 2019

    Eureka, today I learnt about the Iron Triangle (see my post in world view). Let’s apply it to this project called Israel Folau.
    He can say what he likes when he likes but must sacrifice price ie his salary.
    He can play rugby and collect a generous salary but be mindful of what he says until he retires, ie sacrifice schedule.
    I’m not sure how you would work the quality vertex, what he is saying is of very low quality however much he is paid whenever he was to say it.

    Reply

Leave a Reply to duperez Cancel reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s