Open Forum – Sunday

28 April 2019

This post is open to anyone to comment on any topic that isn’t spam, illegal or offensive. All Your NZ posts are open but this one is for you to raise topics that interest you, or you think may interest others.. 

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53 Comments

  1. Corky

     /  28th April 2019

    I find it hard to believe this guy is not taking the piss. He highlights many points I made yesterday. If he had bothered to research he would have found the issue of sports participation in Islam is a vexing issue. There are as many opinions as there are scholars.
    The one consistency is that Islam places rules around acceptable behaviour regarding sport.
    I believe the Crusaders rugby franchise is a non issue with Muslims, mainly because they have no interest in that sport. I will believe that until it is proven otherwise.

    I think this guy touts himself as a journalist.

    [”A year or so later and it’s apparent rugby in this country — across the globe — has another major problem.

    The issue, though, is that the game here only seems to cater for only one religion. However much everyone in authority here says they understand inclusion, diversity and respect, they understand it from a Christian perspective.

    The prevailing religious hegemony coupled with players who wear the Christian cross so visibly on their person deepens the perception rugby is a game founded in a Christian country, played in predominantly Christian countries, and therefore open only to Christians.

    It is surely undisputed that the point of the Crusaders’ pre-game theatre was to make the opposition feel the clock had been turned back 700 years or so and that they had been cast in the role of ruling Muslims.

    So the answer to the question of how many Muslims would have enjoyed going to a Crusaders game is presumably none and the chances are quite high that the number of Muslims who attend a Crusaders game on any given weekend is none.”]

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12225749

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  28th April 2019

      And again. As I understand it Destiny Church was just claiming back Aotearoa as a Christian Country in the name of what they believe is the true god.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12225738

      Reply
      • Tait and the Destiny Church have no right to claim anything for the country as a whole. Aotearoa prior to being renamed New Zealand knew nothing about Christianity.

        Aotearoa New Zealand has never been a Christian Country. New Zealand as a country has never been officially associated with any religion, and is widely regarded as a secular country.

        Post-war New Zealand has become a highly secular country, meaning that religion does not play a major role in the lives of many of the population.

        Although New Zealand has no established religion, Christianity has been the majority religious affiliation since European settlement in the 19th century. The trend toward irreligion may indicate increasing secularisation, as well as a rise in non-institutional spiritual belief.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_New_Zealand

        Christianity has been trending downward significantly as the majority religious affiliation and at the 2013 census was about 44% (combined denominations), less than Undeclared and no religion at 46.26%.

        With younger people less likely to be religious, and people more willing to state they are not religious, this trend is likely to continue.

        Reply
        • Jacqueline

           /  28th April 2019

          “Tait and the Destiny Church have no right to claim anything for the country as a whole.”

          They were not claiming anything for the country. They believe they were. This is in no way objectionable. How many easily offended people does it take for us to lose our freedoms?

          Of note is that you follow up your objection to a message you don’t believe in with info about religious affiliation. Are you actively trying to undermine Christianity in Aotearoa?

          I think it’s good that we are losing our willingness to stick with institutionalised religion. But do you realise that Islam always institutionalises religion? Are we willing to drop institutionalised ‘Christianity’ for another form of institutionalised religion? This is what will happen through the next centuries if we don’t get our head around the Christianity issue now. It’s intrinsically bound up with our Maori.

          Reply
          • “Are you actively trying to undermine Christianity in Aotearoa?”

            No. Why do you suggest I could be?

            “Are we willing to drop institutionalised ‘Christianity’ for another form of institutionalised religion?”

            The trend is towards being more secular, not swapping one form of form of institutionalised religion or another.

            What do you hate the most, people turning away from Christianity (or choosing not to go there), or there being a relatively small number of Muslims?

            Reply
            • Jacqueline

               /  28th April 2019

              “No. Why do you suggest I could be?”

              This is explained in two comments from another thread which you censored.

              [Deleted false accusations.]

              Answer my questions, if you’re truly into free speech.

              [Free speech doesn’t mean compelling someone to speak. I don’t want to spend time arguing with you, especially as you ignore what I say and keep repeating yourself.]

            • Jacqueline

               /  28th April 2019

              “What do you hate the most, people turning away from Christianity (or choosing not to go there), or there being a relatively small number of Muslims?”

              I’m fine with people making their own choices re religion or to be non religious. I don’t hate anything to do with those issues. But I do hate lies, and I do detest you undermining my freedom of speech.

              [You still don’t understand what ‘free speech’ is here (as on any online forum). If you want complete freedom to speak online, try somewhere like Facebook (they may or may not allow it) or do it through your own website, where you can take whatever risks you like.]

    • duperez

       /  28th April 2019

      Seriously, when the British and Irish Lions players arrived at the Christchurch stadium in 2017 to play the Crusaders, how many had it cross their minds that they had been cast in the role of ruling Muslims?

      When the Hurricanes players arrived there on February 23rd this year how many felt the clock had been turned back 700 years or so and that they had been cast in the role of ruling Muslims?

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  28th April 2019

        I do think that the silly trappings could be dropped; they are too cringe-making for words.

        Keep the name, drop the cod castles and flapping ‘chain mail’ .

        Reply
  2. Patzcuaro

     /  28th April 2019

    Reclaiming Aotearoa as a Christian country outside a mosque in the current climate could be regarded as tone-deaf.

    Reply
    • Patzcuaro

       /  28th April 2019

      The same could be said for dressing up as medieval knights in white with red crosses.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  28th April 2019

        Ok, but proclaiming everwhere that Islam is a religion of peace right now can seem to some to have a similar tone deafness.

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  28th April 2019

          The fact that some fanatics distort a religion for their own ends doesn’t change the real tenets of that religion.

          Destiny were extremely badmannered to do what they did, and to do it when they did shows crass insensitivity. Had they not heard of the massacres ? They must have hides like rhinoceroses.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  28th April 2019

            They have a Bible they believe to be the word of the one, true, God, whose first commandment is that we must have NO OTHER GOD but him. Whose name is Yaweh&Jesus&The Holy Spirit. Or Jaweh^3.

            They are concerned for the souls of New Zealanders lest they might come to believe Islam and have a false god – Allah – before Jaweh.

            How difficult is that to understand?

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  28th April 2019

              We seem to be talking at cross-purposes. I was talking about fanatical Muslims.

              Destiny are not violent but they are fanatics, I think, who take some verses and ignore others for their own purposes and what they did in Christchurch was utterly crass. They can’t speak on my behalf, thank you very much. Their beliefs are nothing like mine, just as the fanatics’ beliefs are nothing like most Muslims’ beliefs. Both distort the tenets of the religion for their own ends.

              Fanatics are brothers under the skin; look at the Westboro Baptists. There’s not much to choose between them and Isis as far as extremely distorted beliefs go.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  28th April 2019

              If I should want to convert to Islam, it’s none of Brian Tamaki’s blasted business.

            • Griff.

               /  28th April 2019

              They are concerned for the souls of New Zealanders lest they might come to believe Islam and have a false god – Allah – before Jaweh.

              How difficult is that to understand? ?
              From here Very.
              Same mythical invisible sky pixie just a different prophet .
              Allah is Jeweh in Arabic.

              الله الأب Allāh al-ab God the Father, الله الابن Allāh al-ibn God the Son, الله الروح القدس Allāh al-rūḥ al-quds God the Holy Spirit.

            • Gezza

               /  28th April 2019

              Destiny were extremely badmannered to do what they did, and to do it when they did shows crass insensitivity. Had they not heard of the massacres ? They must have hides like rhinoceroses.

              Kitty ! I was replying to that !

            • Gezza

               /  28th April 2019

              From here Very.
              Same mythical invisible sky pixie just a different prophet .
              Allah is Jeweh in Arabic.

              Well, of course ! To you it’s the same one becos I dunno why.
              To Christians it’s NOT the same one, because their God is Jaweh^3 – Jesus is God.

              To Muslims he’s just some prophet, certainly not God. Do try & keep up.

            • Gezza

               /  28th April 2019

              @ Griff

              And he’s not a mythical invisible sky pixie or sky fairy – he’s an invincible, all powerful, all knowing, all loving, omnipresent master of the universe who has issued commands to all mankind millenia & centuries ago & created a heaven & a hell for those of them who do and don’t do what he has commanded via the Jewish old time leaders & prophets & Jesus & Muhammad, depending which one those who need him have decided to worship

              Downgrading this mythical being to the status of an elf is not the way to deal with the problems belief in it causes.

            • Kimbo

               /  28th April 2019

              @ Griff

              Allah is Jeweh in Arabic.
              الله الأب Allāh al-ab God the Father, الله الابن Allāh al-ibn God the Son, الله الروح القدس Allāh al-rūḥ al-quds God the Holy Spirit.

              If you mean a straight translation, no. The Arabic “Allah” finds its equivalent in the Hebrew ‘Elohim (אֱלֹהִים), which means “God” or “gods”. The name of the Hebrew deity (יהוה, also known as the tetragrammaton) is most likely pronounced “Yahweh”. Whereas in Arabic the word for God/gods is also the name of the Muslim deity.

              But yes, one can argue to what extent the monotheistic deity of Judaism, Christianity and Islam differ, For instance “God the S/son” is blasphemous heresy for Muslims.

            • Kimbo

               /  28th April 2019

              @ Griff

              …and from what I can tell, when translating the Hebrew Bible into Arabic, they followed the tradition of Hebrew piety, the Greek LXX (Septuagint) and New Testament, and the English translators going back to the 1611 KJV, by rendering tetragrammaton as “Lord” (رب. rab-ba), rather than as an Arabic transliteration of YHWH.

              https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/رب

            • Griff.

               /  28th April 2019

              אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ
              Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’aretz.
              1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

              Opps now I am in trouble.,
              You don’t tug on Superman’s cape
              You don’t spit into the wind
              You don’t pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger
              And you don’t argue Christianity with Kimbo .

            • Kimbo

               /  28th April 2019

              You copied and pasted incorrectly by leaving out בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית “in the beginning” / alternate translation possibility: “When he began…” at the start of that Hebrew text. 😀

              And the tetragrammaton doesn’t appear in the Hebrew Bible until the start of the second creation account in Genesis 2:4.

              But I’d never challenge your knowledge of sailing. Or on the alleged dangers or lack thereof of cannabis. Not climate change.

            • Kimbo

               /  28th April 2019

              Oops, getting sloppy. And the Hebrew verb ba-ra(בָּרָ֣א)…

            • Griff.

               /  28th April 2019

              The more you know the more you know you dont know
              https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*LnYi2NSShCTl0Dl5k3gAwg..
              .

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  28th April 2019

          How do you make the Hebrew and Greek letters appear ?

          Reply
          • Kimbo

             /  28th April 2019

            I copy and paste from lexicons or texts, but there are programmes that let you input characters from non-Latin alphabets using the QWERTY keyboard.

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  28th April 2019

              I probably wouldn’t want to do it often enough; it wouldn’t be worth it for the young curate of Kew who kept a tom cat in a pew.

              Quiz questions; which months have 28 days and who killed Cain ?

            • Kimbo

               /  28th April 2019

              12, and no one according to Scripture. Instead he wandered as a fugitive for killing his brother, Abel (which you though I might say).

              Just don’t ask from where Cain’s wife came. 🤓

  3. Blazer

     /  28th April 2019

    3 minutes in ..’snow washing’

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  28th April 2019

      Thanks for that, Blazer….I just happen to have a 25 stone, Harley riding relly living in Canada who said ‘anytime I need help..” Seems like their property market is a good investment.

      I must say the way Canadian media present a story is very unique. I don’t think we would allow our TV presenters to turn their back on an audience.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  28th April 2019

        Another relly, this one 160 kg (in round figures) riding a Harley in Canada ? Hasn’t she squashed it yet ?

        One sample of a Canadian reporter is too small to prove anything. It may well be unique, as this means a one-off.

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  28th April 2019

          Your relly seems to misunderstand the issue of house affordability and inflated prices. This doesn’t make for good investments, it’s the opposite. The bubble will burst as it has here when house prices have been inflated. People lose money when the prices tumble. There is no way that I would invest in Canadian real estate at the moment. I have been to Canada, know Canadians and they seem to be saying more or less what these people are saying, just in less detail.

          The reporters couldn’t address the man on the screen without facing him.

          Reply
  4. Gezza

     /  28th April 2019

    Claims of bullying & harrassment by Parliamentary staff
    Seven parliamentary staffers complained about sexual harassment over a three-year period, Stuff can reveal.

    One accused employee was sacked, and another kept their job after apologising to complainants, statistics provided by the Office of the Clerk and Parliamentary Service reveal. Nine back-office staff have claimed a culture of bullying and harassment affected their health and drove some out of jobs. 

    A further three ex-employees spoke to Stuff this week on the condition of anonymity.

    Parliamentary Service provides administrative support to MPs and deals with staff, salaries and expenses. It also manages historic buildings around the Wellington precinct. The Office of the Clerk helps MPs with advice on parliamentary procedure and legislation, and runs select committees.

    In the last few years both agencies have undergone significant restructures – both led by Rafael Gonzalez-Montero. He was deputy clerk of the House of Representatives, and in December was appointed general manager of Parliamentary Service.

    Thirty-seven staff have left Parliament since Christmas, with two exiting this week.

    A woman working for the Office of the Clerk complained of being harassed while working overseas in 2017. “The staff member did not wish to pursue a complaint,” Clerk of the House of Representatives David Wilson said.

    In a statement, Wilson and Gonzalez-Montero said: “Our door is always open to employees who feel they have any workplace concerns, including historical, about perceived bullying, harassment or any other inappropriate behaviour.”
    However, they also said many of the allegations made to Stuff are “simply not true”.

    Gonzalez-Montero sent an internal email to staff this week claiming former staff “may be breaking non-disclosure agreements” by speaking to journalists. He refused to say how many staff have signed a gag order or whether he had issued warnings to those involved.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/112251435/beehive-staffer-says-she-cried-all-the-way-home-after-parliamentary-bullying

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  28th April 2019

      Maybe we should consider parliament the secular equivalent of the Catholic Church?

      Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  28th April 2019

      If you want a bad employer the Govt is always hard to beat.

      Reply
  5. harryk

     /  28th April 2019

    Re Kiwi shearer Lou Brown who just broke the record [Merino Ewes] in West Aust, shearing 497 sheep in eight hours. Lou follows in legendary steps.

    A West Aust team called the ‘Mad Eight’ shearing in the Gascoyne in 1923 broke the record at Williambury Station where they shore nine thousand in five days. They used Moffat Virtue machines, immortalised by the shearer bard of the Gascoyne, Jack Sorensen –

    ‘The twisted bike one still may see
    Nearby a stony gully’s bed,
    Hung in a stunted flood gum tree,
    Where someone found O’Hara dead.
    At Mount Lorraine the overseer
    Held a vacant stand through weeks of toil,
    For the Thing that came at midnight there,
    To fullfil the law laid down by Doyle.’

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74943054

    Reply
  6. lurcher1948

     /  28th April 2019

    The right have many problems tike the STUPID car chasing idiot called Simon Bridges you are not PM material,,KEEP BEING STUPID SIMON…JACINDA LOVES YOU

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  28th April 2019

      I think they take it more philosophically than you, Lurch.

      Reply
  7. Kitty Catkin

     /  28th April 2019

    Some dodgy logic from the Flat Earthers, like the idea that we don’t feel as if we’re spinning at 1600 kph. No, but when we’re in planes or on a ship we don’t seem to be moving very fast.

    What do they think that the dome that covers the earth’s made of ? Perspex like a giant Shower Dome ?

    The idea that it LOOKS flat ergo it is flat is a fallacy, When I see someone at the top of the hill across the road they look tiny, but they’re not. The road seems to narrow to a point, but it doesn’t.

    Reply
    • Kimbo

       /  28th April 2019

      As per my posts here:

      https://yournz.org/2019/04/28/media-watch-sunday-155/#comment-365048

      …the flat earthers who also believe the Scriptures are literally accurate, think it is a giant polished metal dome. As per Genesis 1: 6-8:

      6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

      The Hebrew word vault (רָקִיעַ, raqia’) or firmament/(solid) expanse/surface was in the first instance something hammered out by a blacksmith on an anvil. Is an irony that the so-called Creation Science movement insists that the literal rendering of Genesis should be taught as science, but at this point they suddenly resort to a figurative interpretation so they can accommodate the scientific consensus with which they do agree!

      https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/is-the-earth-flat/

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  28th April 2019

        I can’t remember where in the Bible the earth is described as round. I think that it says that the sun goes around the earth, but can’t swear to it.

        There could well be a vault around a sphere, like the ivory carvings,

        Whisch version is that ? The King James has firmament.

        Reply
        • Kimbo

           /  28th April 2019

          NIV. And I think it is Isaiah who describes Yahweh sitting above the “circle”, (i.e., flat disk) of the earth

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  29th April 2019

            I’d like to know what the original word was, and what it implied.

            Reply
            • Kimbo

               /  29th April 2019

              https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa40.pdf

              https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2329.htm

              chug: vault, horizon
              Original Word: חוּג
              Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
              Transliteration: chug
              Phonetic Spelling: (khoog)
              Definition: vault, horizon

              See also the usage of the same word in Proverbs 8:27, talking of wisdom being a witness to God’s creation:

              When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth

              So it is the idea of God marking out a flat circle upon the dark watery deep (as found as the original primordial state in Genesis 1), which he is going to make into dry land by separating the waters above and below. The NIV, using the translation principle of dynamic equivalence, captures the idea well with:

              I was there when he set the heavens in place,
              when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep
              .

              I’m well aware that some Christians use this text as a “Biblical science proof text” (“see, God knew the earth was a sphere, so it proves the Scriptures are divinely inspired!”). However, they are guilty of trying to force a potential meaning of the word and verse into their pre-existing understanding and prejudice, rather than letting the surrounding text and what we know of Ancient Near Eastern archaeology determine the most likely meaning. Technically it is known as eisegesis (putting into), rather than what we should be doing, exegesis, (drawing out).

              Further discussion and analysis here:

              http://www.crivoice.org/circle.html

              Incidentally, in the same Isaiah 40 passage, indeed just a few verses before verse 22 you get an example of the use of the verb from which that noun רָקִיעַ (raqia’) vault/dome/firmament/(solid) expanse is derived in Genesis 1:6-8. Speaking of pagan idol-makers forging their work, and using a hammer on soft gold to make a covering:

              The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. 19 (Isaiah 40:19).

              Or, as per the NIV:

              19As for an idol, a metalworker casts it,
              and a goldsmith overlays it with gold
              and fashions silver chains for it.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  29th April 2019

              Oh dear, the RSV leaves other versions nowhere when it comes to beautiful writing. It’s worth reading for that alone. I can’t understand why anyone would want some of the hideous travesties like The Living (I won’t dignify it with the word Bible) or the Message, written by some whoreson, beetle-headed, flap-eared knave. Aroint thee, rump-fed ronion ! Get thee to the devil and say I sent thee thither !

              I’d love Wycliff’s version, but suspect that it’s not easy to find.

              A vault in this context has to be semi-spherical at least.

              Did you know what the emerods were that were made of gold in, I think, Exodus ?

            • Kimbo

               /  29th April 2019

              …and with that background in mind, you can then look at the entire verse of Isaiah 40:22 (where the greatness of Yahweh’s power in creation is contrasted with those puny human idol makers in 40:19):

              22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
              and its people are like grasshoppers.
              He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
              and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

              …and yet again, there is the idea of Yahweh stretching out the (solid metal) vault/dome of heaven like a giant cosmic blacksmith. So no, it isn’t an example where the Bible “got the science right”. Quite the opposite. But then that was never the intent of Scripture, as it isn’t a science text.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  29th April 2019

              I just have; the RSV that was my mother’s school one sits on the back of the sofa, I will never replace this sofa except with an identical one. It is a 70s model (re-covered by me) and has a wide, flat back that is a handy bookshelf.

            • Kimbo

               /  29th April 2019

              https://biblehub.com/str/hebrew/2914.htm

              techor: tumors (a result of dysentery)
              Original Word: טְחֹר
              Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
              Transliteration: techor
              Phonetic Spelling: (tekh-ore’)
              Definition: tumors (a result of dysentery)

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  29th April 2019

              It was actually another word for haemorrhoids. A corruption, according to Annandales. This should be obvious, but probably isn’t. When a friend and I worked this out, we tried not to think about what the gold ones looked like and how the goldsmith knew what they looked like.

              Bible hub is a little out on this one.

        • Kimbo

           /  28th April 2019

          Yep. Isaiah 40:22. Is in the passage of Scripture spoken by Eric Liddell when he is being pressured to run on the Sabbath, in the movie, Chariots of Fire:

          “Have you not known? Have you not heard? Was it not told to you from the beginning?…”

          Reply

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