Members of an online hate group meet

Thanks for pointing this out Patzcuaro, it’s a very good cartoon.

It’s probably not exactly applicable to New Zealand. Extreme intolerance seems to be mostly expressed here by those tending more towards ‘white power’ here.

Whale Oil seems to be getting more right wing and extreme, more ‘Christian’ (in a fundamental rather than a Christ-like way) and into conspiracy peddling. Yesterday: Leighton Smith calls out the war on Christianity

The dominant narrative of the media-political elite in the West is one of ?Islamophobia?. No matter the escalating violence and horror that Islamic extremists perpetrate in the West, the great and good remain utterly convinced that it is Muslims who are shivering in abject terror of slavering Westerners. In the near-two-decades since 9/11 the narrative goes, the bigoted hordes of non-Muslims have been straining at the bit to unleash a ?backlash?.

Meanwhile, it?s the other two Abrahamic faiths who are genuinely facing violent persecution.

Across the Middle-East and North Africa, Christian communities, among them the most ancient in the world, are being persecuted ? if not all but wiped out. Not even the Pope can bring himself to break the iron code of PC orthodoxy and admit it, though

I have written before of the vast gulf between small-m multiculturalism and its capital-M variety. The former simply acknowledges cultural difference, and that exchange can enrich cultures. Its odious cousin, though, is an insidious doctrine that denigrates Western culture and denies its natives any claim on its heritage, let alone lands.

That prompted the types of comments that have ramped up since the Christchurch mosque shootings, like this from Sunshine:

The war is not on Christians. Christians are just the vehicle. The war is on western culture which happens to be Christians. It is western culture and civilisation that must be destroyed and rebuilt with a neo-liberal (nihilistic) flavour.

deja vu only disagrees about the level of Christian insecurity:

I disagree – the war is being fought on two levels, the physical and the spiritual, the latter being the most insidious and malevolent. The fallout (if we don’t wake up) will be the certain demise of Western culture and civilisation. Western culture today is largely indifferent to the God of our forebears who is reluctantly taking His hand of protection from us. When the West honoured His transcendence and sovereignty we flourished. It is not His nature to deny His people their choice of turning away from Him. We get just what we deserve, as do wayward children. Let us try to prevent the inevitable happening by seeking Him again in earnest. One thing is certain – Islam is rising to fill the spiritual vacuum caused by this conflict. At the moment it has the upper hand, and we’re fooling ourselves if we think we’re somehow immune from its onslaught. What we need is a nationwide repentance for our folly.

Christian extremists are almost as dangerous as Muslim extremists generally, and possibly more of a potential problem here in New Zealand.

“Western culture and civilisation” is a bit of a euphemism for white power. Trying to cling to some semblance of Western/Christian/European/white superiority by driving intolerance and division is going to make things worse, not better.

Leave a comment

77 Comments

  1. Andrei

     /  1st May 2019

    “Christian extremists are almost as dangerous as Muslim extremists generally, and possibly more of a potential problem here in New Zealand.”

    Yes those damned Presbyterians and their other Easter Worshipping” fellow travellors
    are secretly stockpiling weapons and building bombs to wreak havoc on New Zealand polity

    Reply
  2. Corky

     /  1st May 2019

    “Western culture and civilisation” is a bit of a euphemism for white power.”

    Tell me you jest, Pete? You are a product of; and enjoy all the benefits of Western civilisation.

    ” Trying to cling to some semblance of Western/Christian/European/white superiority.”

    From what I see Western Culture is superior to all other cultures at the moment. Why is that bad? Why wouldn’t you be proud of that and want to nurture it?

    If we aren’t superior, why the hell is the rest of the world crawling over themselves to breach our borders?

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  1st May 2019

      They are not, of course.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  1st May 2019

        Corky I think maybe identifies with Trumpians facing massive assault on their southern border by hordes of Central American desperate migrants demanding right of entry to the US & European countries facing a similar influx of Middle Eastern Muslim refugees & desperate African migrants demanding entry to Europe. While this isn’t happening here, it was happening to Australia, & he probably has a point that if we didn’t have our isolation down here in the South Pacific & were closer to these places, it would be happening to us too.

        Reply
        • I think that that is desperation rather than admiration for the supposedly superior culture. These people are facing starvation in many cases.

          Demanding is an emotive word that implies entitlement, it seems to me that they are begging to be let in, not demanding right of entry,

          Who knows what we would do in their place ? These people are so desperate to escape that they sell everything and risk their lives to get out of their own countries.

          Reply
  3. Gezza

     /  1st May 2019

    “Western culture and civilisation” is a bit of a euphemism for white power.

    No I don’t agree with that. It covers the collective Western countries laws & freedoms & ideals & education/knowledge accumulation that have been developed over centuries of struggle & endeavour & lled them to become the kind of largely open societies that have flourished economically, culturally, artistically, industrially, intellectually, scientifically & even religiously & non-religiously.

    They have made mistakes & via colonisation & at times bullying & destabilisation of other countries, but they are still a beacon for people everywhere who want what we have.

    Christianity is an inescapable & vital part of Western societies’s development, & although it is fading in its influence, folk like me prefer it to other religions which have been such a strong influence on our development into the kind of society we love.

    When I contrast the kind of open society I see here with that of Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or Egypt, where a dictatorship says it’s necessary to prevent the country becoming an intolerant Islamic funfamentalist state, or China, or Russia, say, the last thing I want to see is ours beimg gradually influenced in any of those directions by any clashing cultural influences from these places.

    I’m all for multi-ethnic immigration and assimilation into Western culture & civilisation. Multiculturalism is an experiment which looks like it might become big trouble.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  1st May 2019

      *folk like me prefer it to other religions which have NOT been such a strong influence on our development into the kind of society we love.

      Reply
    • Corky

       /  1st May 2019

      ”They have made mistakes & via colonisation & at times bullying & destabilisation of other countries, but they are still a beacon for people everywhere who want what we have.”

      People seem to think being pro West means you ignore or lessen the many mistakes and atrocities perpetrated by the West. That isn’t the case. I just want to enjoy the dying light of my culture, and I’m grateful I won’t be around as it disintegrates into barbarianism.

      ”I’m all for multi-ethnic immigration and assimilation into Western culture & civilisation. Multiculturalism is an experiment which looks like it might become big trouble.”

      Even though that paragraph is self explanatory, the point made will be missed by a few.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  1st May 2019

        The ‘west’ is a big place and there is no single Western ‘culture’. Being white is a skin colour, not a culture. Russians are white.

        Reply
      • Corky

         /  1st May 2019

        😃

        Reply
  4. Zedd

     /  1st May 2019

    there is someone posting ‘anti-white supremicist’ posters in Sth D. I accept their right to do so.. as long as they accept others, that said ‘It is OK to be white….’

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  1st May 2019

      Of course it’s all right to be white…or black, brown or anything else. It’s not something that we can do anything about, after all.

      Reply
      • Zedd

         /  1st May 2019

        I wasn’t making a supposition.. someone posted ‘its OK to be white’ (no swastika/4th reich signs) & were defaced & torn down :/ 😦

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  1st May 2019

          The problem is that Lauren wossname and Stefan Molyneux have made that phrase sound racist instead of neutral. It will be forever associated with the unlovely duo. I liked it when she asked the NZ interviewer if she wasn’t proud to be white (or something like that) and the interviewer said no. L & S were left looking very foolish when the interviewer told them that she was Maori.

          I knew that you weren’t making suppositions, I didn’t mean it to sound like that.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  1st May 2019

            Yes – that little blooper by the Aryan Maiden made me grin too.

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  1st May 2019

              Awkward silence for a moment…

              They are probably too thick-skinned to be really embarrassed.

  5. The Consultant

     /  1st May 2019

    “Western culture and civilisation” is a bit of a euphemism for white power.

    Well actually it’s not just White Supremacists who say that but the Identity Politics Left, and there’s many more of the latter with a lot more media and academic power behind them than the WS group.

    Reply
  6. Ray

     /  1st May 2019

    Last time Labour were in power we had the Urewera raids and although the Court case basically fell over thanks to some “interesting” judgements and we were told they were just playing up there, there were some seriously dodgy going’s on.

    “According to a Dominion Post report, Iti’s group, named “Rama” – the Maori word for enlightenment – consisted of about 20 people including former New Zealand Army soldiers, some of whom had fought in the Vietnam War, as well as several members in their late teens. The group’s methods were allegedly derived from the IRA’s Green Book training manual. The Dominion’s source described the group as “comical” and “amateurish.”
    An “open invitation” to the training camps had been sent to sympathetic activists.
    A Christchurch activist who claims to have attended said he was “overwhelmed” and “a bit freaked out” by their military-style practices”

    So not just right wing groups should be watched.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  1st May 2019

      Cock ups by state security & police orgs screwed that whole thing up. But the operation did scare the shit out of any who were serious about it when they suddenly realised they were now on the radar & needed to behave.

      Reply
  7. One of the more tiresome aspects of Whale Oil is there attempts to promote a new version of the Moriori myth. They’ve now done a couple of posts – it was really the same post, recycled – in which they present Moriori as naive fools, because they refused to fight to north Taranaki iwi who invaded their islands in 1835, and go on to claim that contemporary Europe is making the same mistake as the Moriori, because it doesn’t take draconian measures against its Muslim inhabitants. The misuse of Moriori history seems endless.

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  1st May 2019

      It’s (ahem) been a few (ahem) years since I was at primary school, but that’s not what we were taught. I seem to remember that they were conquered by force of numbers and more or less died out. The last full-blooded Moriori died in the c.20 (a Mr Solomon ?)

      Remember the Howard Morrison song ?

      The old Moriori, he told me the story/Of how Moriori perished/It seems that the Maori, tough as the kauri/Conquered the land he cherished/No moa, no moa, in all Aotearoa/No moa, no moa, it’s gone and there ain’t no moa.

      Reply
  8. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    But getting back to the main subject: it is really unfortunate that people on the right, and often the far right of the right, try to lay claim to things like ‘Western civilisation’, and a ‘Western intellectual heritage’, when their xenophobic and anti-intellectual views would have offended many of Europe’s greatest thinkers. I can’t see Socrates having much time for the false certainties of Whale Oil, and I don’t see how Sappho or Petronious fits into Jordan Peterson’s vision of Europe as a continent of good traditional Christian values. These guys are as unfair to European intellectual history as they are to non-European peoples.

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  1st May 2019

      Do you know Petronius and the Cena Trimalchio ? It’s been years since I read it, but seem to remember it being both funny and vulgar. I have read Sappho, but in translation as my Greek is virtually non-existent.

      Much of the ancient Greek pottery would not be able to be sold in mainstream shops now, with those graphic depictions of sex scenes on them.

      Reply
  9. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    ‘If we aren’t superior, why the hell is the rest of the world crawling over themselves to breach our borders?’

    An increasing number of young Kiwis are migrating to China for work. As the century goes on, I suspect that the thousands of economic migrants will turn to tens or even hundreds of thousands. They go where the money is, but China isn’t necessarily where their heart is. I doubt whether many become devotees of the CCP and its system. They’ll return home when they’ve earned enough, just as many Tongan migrants to NZ return home, and African migrants to Europe return home. Economic migration is not necessarily a sign of political approval.

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  1st May 2019

      People have been going on OE for a long time; even in the days when they had to go by ship. Even in the days of sailing ships, there was a surprising amount of travel between countries.

      Reply
  10. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    ‘Christian extremists are almost as dangerous as Muslim extremists’

    Obviously this statement doesn’t cover the Anglicans or the Presbyterians. But many of the white supremacists who are causing concern at the moment adhere to some version of Christianity. An example is the Christian Identity movement, which descends from the British Israelite movement that once had a huge following in NZ as well as the UK. The British Israelites claimed that Britons were a lost tribe of Israel, and had a special duty, imposed by god, to rule over lesser races. William Massey, our longest serving PM, was a British Israelite. The Christian Identity movement sees whites as a superior, god-created race, and Jews and blacks as the spawn of the devil. Obviously the majority of Christians will see this movement as something heretical and offensive, in the same way that most Muslims see ISIS as a heresy. But the Christian Identity movement nonetheless counts itself as Christian.

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  1st May 2019

      What about the Westboro Baptists who laugh at funerals ?

      I once saw a video of a revival in the US, made BY the revivalists, and it was Nuremberg all over again. One thing that struck me was the faces of the children who’d been sucked in; no joy on them, just anguish and (fear ?) There was a camp where they were all given mugs with pictures of the then president and ceremonially smashed them. The children were spouting the same messages as the adults, parrot-fashion, intolerance of various kinds.

      It must have fizzed out as these things do, but although I was shown it by someone who thought that it was great and ‘the Lord’s’ doing, I found it totally unnerving.

      It was Destiny multiplied by who knows how many thousands.

      Reply
  11. The Consultant

     /  1st May 2019

    Whiteness as Collections:

    If you look at any United States library’s collection, especially those in higher education institutions, most of the collections (books, journals, archival papers, other media, etc.) are written by white dudes writing about white ideas, white things, or ideas, people, and things they stole from POC and then claimed as white property with all of the “rights to use and enjoyment of” that Harris describes in her article. When most of our collections filled with this so-called “knowledge,” it continues to validate only white voices and perspectives and erases the voices of people of color. Collections are representations of what librarians (or faculty) deem to be authoritative knowledge and as we know, this field and educational institutions, historically, and currently, have been sites of whiteness.

    Library collections continue to promote and proliferate whiteness with their very existence and the fact that they are physically taking up space in our libraries.

    This is a post from the blog site of Sofia Leung. She is the “Teaching And Learning Program Manager” at Massachussets Institute of Technology Libraries.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  1st May 2019

      It would be OK if she worked in the family laundry business while holding those views – but a library? Whitey is the new Blacky.

      Reply
    • Duker

       /  1st May 2019

      A minor academic who is really just a library ‘manager’ ( US speak for minor administrator)
      when she is just one of dozens of ‘topic experts’ , her specialty is Film Studies
      https://libraries.mit.edu/experts/
      “My current research is on the intersections of Critical Race Theory and Library and Information Science and I speak on a number of topics, mostly related to social justice and libraries, critical pedagogy, and critical librarianship.”

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  1st May 2019

        It’s like professor being US-speak for lecturer, Duker.

        Her statement is so vague as to be meaningless. It also insults non-whites by enfeebling them.

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  1st May 2019

          As there are more white people than black or Asian ones, it stands to reason that there will be more books by white people. A Chinese or Indian library will have more books by Chinese and Indians than anyone else.

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  1st May 2019

            I cant find any of her ‘research’ published… a legend in her own library aisle.
            Interesting that she did her BA at an offshoot of Columbia in Manhattan, Barnard ( a women only college) the most selective college of its type in US

            she is an author for a ‘open peer reviewed blog’
            http://www.inthelibrarywiththeleadpipe.org/authors/
            But someone else has beaten her to publication
            http://www.inthelibrarywiththeleadpipe.org/2015/soliciting-performance-hiding-bias-whiteness-and-librarianship/

            As usual its just bitching about the job but dressing it as ‘intersectionality’

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  1st May 2019

              My impression is that many US BAs stand for Bugger All.

            • Duker

               /  1st May 2019

              Not for a place like Barnard , it would be to a very high standard , in some colleges its a 4 year degree , equivalent to an MA without thesis. Often they go on to do masters or doctorates at the US universities that only take graduate students for all courses, ie Law , medicine etc.

            • Gezza

               /  1st May 2019

              I’ve been getting Duker to do my research for me too, Kitty.

  12. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    One of the problems with the attempts of the far right to appropriate ‘Western culture’ and ‘Western thought’ is that those things developed not in isolation but through exchanges with other parts of the world. It is common to think of Greek culture as something autarkic, as a sort of sudden illumination in a darkness of superstition, but there are links between the earliest Greek philosophers and Middle Eastern civilisations. Thales’ successful prediction of an eclipse is often counted as the beginning of Western philosophy, but some scholars suspect his astronomical knowledge was brought from Babylon. Greek civilisation mixed with Egyptian civilisation in places like Alexandria, and it is likely that each influenced the other.

    The role of the Arabs in preserving and furthering learning during the Middle Ages is well known, but the contribution of India to nineteenth century European philosophy is often overlooked. So is the influence of Pacific societies on European culture. Picasso and many of the other great modernists virtually copied some of their works from Pacific sculptures they admired. Jung’s theory of the collective unconscious may well have been borrowed from the mythology of Malakula Island. Rousseau and other radical Enlightenment theorists were powerfully influenced by Tahitian society, with its sexual freedom and relative lack of hierarchy. As the great Tongan philosopher Futa Helu said, ‘the ocean of human culture is fed by many rivers’.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  1st May 2019

      Yes, and nearly all of these cultures & civilisations have had their empires & military & cultural expansions & conquests & times in the sun. Those in some Western countries have had quite short lifespans so far, in comparison, but as I note above they are presently in terms of their freedoms & their use & adaptation of the accumulated knowledge & technology from many times & different sources far more the kind of society I want to live in than some others which declined or somewhat stagnated, until they emulated much of what has worked so well in the West. Christianity has generally become a tolerant, relaxed kind of religion with no issues with people who flag it away, apart from a few extreme fundies who are now generally regarded as nutbars.

      Reply
  13. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    ‘Do you know Petronius’

    Like many people, I suspect, I know him as a result of Fellini’s amazing film version of the Satyricon:

    So much for Judeo-Christian values being the bedrock of Western civilisation!

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  1st May 2019

      I haven’t seen that, I have just read his works at university when I was studying Latin.
      It’s a marvellous language and we had brilliant lecturers (the Latin mistress at my school was also brilliant) But the people who invented all those damned case endings and conjugations had far too much time on their hands.

      Who’d guess that tango, tangere, tecti, tactum were all parts of the same verb ?

      But I love things like ‘Malo malo malo malo’ and ‘In mari meri miri mori muri placet.’ Oh, the wit.

      I have seen the lead wishes and curses that were thrown into the waters at Bath, or Aquae Sulis as it was then. Charming – I don’t think.

      Reply
  14. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    ‘What about the Westboro Baptists who laugh at funerals ?’

    Yes, and a much larger and better organised group are the Christian Reconstructionists, who want to establish a theocracy where gays and adulterers are stoned and non-Christians have no rights. They’re the American version of ISIS, though I don’t think they’ve ever turned to terrorism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_reconstructionism

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  1st May 2019

      Brethren under the skin, although they’d hate to think it.

      We had a book out of the library about the religious right in the US and there is still one here (not the same one) among my late husband’s books. It made for unnerving reading and was documented, not just opinion. Men could only hold office if they were in an approved church if these people had their way (men are welcome to public office, I don’t want it ) and the religious right was very powerful. I wonder how many Americans are like the New Decalogue and think that going to church is a small price to pay ‘to keep the world thy friend’. I can’t remember the rest of that one, and can’t be bothered to go across to look up my Clough.

      Reply
    • Corky

       /  1st May 2019

      The difference is Western society will not allow that to gain a foot hold. We have far too many populations that are secular. Our political system is ( or should be) fire walled against religion gaining legislative control or undue influence.

      Islam is a one stop shop that has no checks and balances. It’s far easier to manipulate, or suppress moderate Islam in favour of radical Islam by subversive religious leaders.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  1st May 2019

        Change the record, the needle’s stuck on that one.

        Excuse me, dear, your bigotry is showing.

        Reply
      • Kimbo

         /  1st May 2019

        Our political system is ( or should be) fire walled against religion gaining legislative control or undue influence

        Is not how our uncodified Westminster constitution is meant to work. Is one of its strengths, and maybe one of its weaknesses. Put it this way, the Americans do constitutionally mandate a wall of separation between church and state…and I’d argue religion has a whole lot more undue and illegitimate influence over their public, national and legislative affairs than ours.

        Reply
        • I’m afraid I would have to research what you have written. I don’t know. All I know is in most Western nations there is a clear demarcation between church and state and private interests of people in power.

          Reply
  15. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    Not many people realise it, but there have been a few experiments in creating a Christian theocracy in the South Pacific. It’s very interesting to visit Rotoroa Island, in the Hauraki Gulf, which was run as a fiefdom by the Salvation Army for decades. The Sallies treated alcoholics on the island, and probably did a lot of good, but they also enforced rigid rules they got from the Bible. Today visitors can swim at Ladies Bay or Mens Bay – the names reflect the Sallies’ segregation of the genders. There’s a creepy little jail where folks could be locked for misbehaviour. Chapel attendance was compulsory. Perhaps not surprisingly, many people escaped from the island.

    And then there were the Presbyterians on Tanna Island in Vanuatu. They subjected the whole island to Bible-based proscriptions, and even led an aggressive campaign to stamp out kava drinking. I’ve got photos of bonfires lit in the ’30s as part of the campaign. They remind me of the shots of Nazi book-burnings. If ever there’s a drug the world could do with, it’s kava. The heavy-handedness of the Presbyterians, which contrasted with the more open attitude of Anglicans in the northern islands of Vanuatu, was responsible for the explosion of the John Frum cult, and the subsequent creatio of all sorts of other curious religious sects. Anything but Presbyterianism!

    Reply
  16. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    ‘Our political system is ( or should be) fire walled against religion gaining legislative control or undue influence.’

    Is that why we banned Maori religion for 55 years? http://www.nzlii.org/nz/legis/hist_act/tsa19077ev1907n13353/

    Reply
    • orky

       /  1st May 2019

      I don’t know. But its a sure example of stopping religious influences, especially on a minority group that may ultimately cause problems for the nations governance.

      Of course that was a different time. It wouldn’t be a goer today.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  1st May 2019

        I will refrain from making the obvious response.

        Reply
  17. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    ‘Christianity has generally become a tolerant, relaxed kind of religion’

    I’d suggest that this is largely through pressure from the outside, rather than any kind of internal reformation. I recently read Bill Cooke’s history of NZ’s Rationalist Society, and was surprised how much legal discrimination non-Christians faced, even as recently as the ’30s. To take one example – Rationalists were barred by Auckland’s council from holding Sunday meetings, but at the same time the Christian churches were allowed to hire cinemas and show movies on the Sabbath.

    Reply
    • Kimbo

       /  1st May 2019

      Sure. Although it was an era when, culturally and socially it was deemed scandalous at a grass-roots level to deny you were a Christian, even if only of the nominal variety. Almost on a par with “paedophile” today!

      Reply
      • Kimbo

         /  1st May 2019

        Mind you, the churches did give up a fight to varying degrees over:

        6 o’clock closing
        Anti-pornography
        Abortion
        Decriminalisation of homosexuality
        Sunday Trading
        Gambling liberalisation
        Gay Marriage

        …and their fight continues over euthanasia.

        Mind you, to what extent their influence is a reflection of spiritual responsibility, illegitimate meddling or that of just another lobby group is probably in the eye of the beholder. However, other than among the Polynesian community, the decline to minority status from the “high point” of Church affiliation that was reached in 1963 is the political reality for the Church. So back to the pre 325AD era of Christianty’s origins. Apostle/Bishop/Ayatollah Brian Tamaki’s assertion we are a “Christian country” nothwithstanding! 😀

        Reply
    • Gezza

       /  1st May 2019

      I’d suggest that this is largely through pressure from the outside, rather than any kind of internal reformation.

      Oh, I agree. Churches in Western English-speaking societies, the way I observed it, were even having to loosen their collars considerably just to try & retain young people in their congregations when many of the heroes of youth counterculture who had immense sway over younger & even some older people were avowed atheists or challenging orthodox Christianity to update its thinking & attitudes.

      We started seeing guitars & folk groups & now even full modern bands & sound systems in churches.

      I was educated right through in the Catholic education system. By the time I was in 6th form virtually none of my classmates paid any attention to the Pope or church dogma, & the senior girls I attended 6th form classes with were ignoring him en masse over his proscription on contraceptives.

      None of the kids in my neighbourhood seemed to go to Church, their parents were mostly Anglican or Presbyterian – might’ve been a Methodist couple or two, but their kids all seemed to be just mucking about having fun all day on Sundays when we were getting dragged off to Sunday Mass – blimmin heathens!

      I know only two Catholics my age who are still practising Christians & I blame the education sciences curriculum & their teaching us to think for ourselves and watch out for consumerism’s enticements & the advertising agencies’ tricks of the trade.

      Reply
  18. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    ‘it [The Tohunga Suppression Act] is a sure example of stopping religious influences’

    It’s an example of banning one religion, at the same time as another got state approval. Not a great advertisement for secularism.

    Reply
    • Kimbo

       /  1st May 2019

      From memory, though, weren’t schools required to be secular from about the 1870s? Mind you, given the times, that more likely meant non-sectarian in the Catholic vs Protestant rivalry.

      And I seem to recall Ulster-transplanted Orangeman William Massey (whom you mentioned above was a British Israelite, as were a host of others in that era, e.g. George VI) played the religion and anti-Fenian card against his Irish Catholic rival, Joseph Ward, in the 1912 election.

      Was the same era in which Auckland Catholic Bishop Liston was unsuccessfully tried for sedition.

      Reply
    • Corky

       /  1st May 2019

      Tohungaism isn’t a religion.

      ”At the same time as another got state approval.”
      ?
      ”The Tohunga Suppression Act 1907 was an Act of the New Zealand Parliament aimed at replacing tohunga as traditional Māori healers with “modern” medicine. It was introduced by James Carroll who expressed “impatience with what he considered regressive Maori attitudes.”

      Sir James Carroll was my granduncle, and the irony is he came from a long line of Tohungas.

      Reply
  19. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    The practices of tohunga were tied to Maori spiritual beliefs. Without the religion, the tohunga would have had no function. The Tohunga Suppression Act is a warning about the potential of the NZ state to curtail religious liberties, in the same way that the Sedition Act is a warning about its ability to curtail political dissidence.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  1st May 2019

      ”The practices of tohunga were tied to Maori spiritual beliefs.”

      Correct.

      ”Without the religion, the tohunga would have had no function.”

      A poor use of words. The problem here is we are using a ‘catch all” European word , religion to describe Tohungaism, even though religion would seem in the normal sense of the word to correctly describe Tohungaism.

      Reply
  20. scooter74

     /  1st May 2019

    Yes, William Massey was a religious fanatic, who thought that the British were a lost tribe of Israel destined to rule the darker races under god’s guidance. He saw World War One as a holy conflict, and this may well have influenced the way NZ fought the war. I don’t know about the European campaign, but I think Massey’s decision to allow the Legion of Frontiersmen to join the invasion of Samoa in late 1914 was motivated by his religious beliefs. The Frontiersmen were manifestly ill-prepared for war, but their beliefs overlapped with those of the British Israelites. Fortunately they weren’t forced to fight.

    Reply
    • Kimbo

       /  1st May 2019

      To be fair, most of the participants in the Great War were buttressed in some sense by religious fanaticism. Especially the Central Powers and Tsarist Russia. You needed something to which to appeal if populations were to continue suffering great deprivation and soldiers kept marching into the meat grinder.

      The appeal to German kultur included a religious component, an interesting combination of the “highly civilised” optimistic 19th Century upward march of progress as the manifestation of the kingdom of God…and a chauvinist appeal to the past.

      And even in Republican France, Catholicism played a part. Mind you, France was deeply divided between the religious and secular factions. Was part and parcel of the age to consider Empire-building as a divinely mandated manifest destiny/survival of the fittest.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  1st May 2019

        That’s true. Gott mit uns (“God with us”) is a phrase commonly used in heraldry in Prussia (from 1701) and later by the German military during the periods spanning the German Empire (1871 to 1918), the Third Reich (1933 to 1945), and the early years of West Germany (1949 to 1962). It was also commonly used by Sweden in most of its wars and especially as a warcry by the Caroleans. Wikipedia

        It was commonly on Prussian & German army belt buckles.

        Reply
    • Gezza

       /  1st May 2019

      But the main point is, scooter, most western countries have now evolved beyond the point where Chrisitanity dominates society, (great chunks of the US Bible Belt is something of an exception, as Kimbo notes) but it is the one which has been the most prominent & best adapted to the prevailing Western cultures that it grew up in & helped shape.

      Adherents mostly dress, look, & behave like the rest of us, day to day. Culture is sometimes best described as “the way we do things here”. Folk in now Westernised countries are comfortable with it & their societal norms.

      Any majorly different culture or way of doing things injected into a predominant one which rejects some of its cultural norms always has the potential to abrade & cause conflict.

      Reply
  21. Pickled Possum

     /  1st May 2019

    Corky There is NO S or Z in the Maori language. If you were Maori you would know that.

    Reply
    • Kimbo

       /  1st May 2019

      Corky can speak for himself, but maybe his perspective is that of Maori of the assimilationist era that began to be challenged and incrementally phased out from the 1970s onwards. Hence a lot of Maori aren’t fussed on how one should spell “W(h)anganui”. Nor a more pure pronunciation of Te Reo. Hence current orthodoxy deems you have erred in writing “Maori” without a macron. 😉

      Reply
      • Pickled Possum

         /  1st May 2019

        Whoosh … my comment is to corky not you. There is a history you dont know about ..myob i recall you being a very vocal racist on… well I,ll be fucked.

        Reply
        • Kimbo

           /  1st May 2019

          Er, you posted in a place of public debate so there goes your “myob” advise down the flusher, and I did qualify with “Corky can speak for himself…”. Either way, as this is not Kiwiblog I’ll follow Pete’s rules of engagement and suggest to you with uncustomary restraint

          …you seem to be very pissy about being called out for not including the macron when spelling Maori. But don’t worry, I don’t consider it a test of whether you are a racist. Maybe your history would reveal otherwise, but as you seem to be a waste of online space I won’t bother.

          Reply
        • Gezza

           /  1st May 2019

          😬 Be gentle with him Possum.

          Reply
    • Corky

       /  1st May 2019

      Take two, eh Possum ..if at first you don’t succeed..try again.😃✔

      Reply
  1. Members of an online hate group meet — Your NZ – NZ Conservative Coalition

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