National’s Law and Order ‘discussion document’

The release of National’s Law and Order Discussion Document has prompted a lot of discussion.

I can’t find a way to see the actual discussion document, it is supposed to be here but it appears that you have to answer a questionnaire before you get to see the document.  Ah, ok, I have worked out how to view the document, it’s in a document viewer.

David Farrar has summarised major proposals at Kiwiblog:

  • Using social investment to reduce offending and prevent crime and harm
  • A specialist anti-gang taskforce within Police
  • Gang members whose offending is gang-related lose eligibility for parole
  • Gang-related offending to be added as an aggravating factor in the Sentencing Act
  • Possibly remove the ability of the court to do concurrent sentences for the most serious offending (ie if you rape three people you get three sentences for rape, not one sentence which is only slightly longer)
  • Make victim notifications when criminals are released the default (ie opt out, not opt in)
  • Murderers who don’t reveal where bodies are, lose parole eligibility
  • Will wider clean slate scheme for young offenders so offences wiped at age 18 if they have only one minor conviction, they do extra community service, get Level 2 NCEA numeracy and literacy and stay out of trouble until they are 25
  • All prisoners (unless dangerous) to be in work, education or training
  • Parole eligibility for low and medium level offenders to require NCEA Stage 2 literacy and numeracy

Some of those seem sensible, and in fact some are already being done to some extent, for example prisoners “in work, education or training”.

Some seem unworkable or unfair – “Murderers who don’t reveal where bodies are, lose parole eligibility” means that those who have been wrongly found guilty and get a life sentence would have no way of getting parole.

And “Parole eligibility for low and medium level offenders to require NCEA Stage 2 literacy and numeracy” is unfair on those with genuine learning difficulties, and a lot of those who end up in prison have basic literacy and numeracy deficiencies.

This media release headline is lame: National is the Party of law and order.

This one is appealing to voters National to put victims at the centre of Justice:

“National believes victims should be at the heart of the justice system. Victims often report feeling let down at sentencing when the person who committed multiple crimes against them only has to do the time for one offence.”

More has to be done to address concerns of victims, but offenders and potential have to remain a major focus.

“We believe communities should be kept safe from the most dangerous criminals so there are fewer victims of crime.”

Oh wow, that’s innovative. That’s not worth discussing.

National proposes banning gang patches in public:

National is proposing banning gang patches and insignia in public so we can take back control from the gangs.

That’s been proposed before but has never happened. I have no idea how it would “take back control from the gangs”. And I have no idea how they would define ‘gang’ and “patches and insignia”.

Parole is a privilege, not a right

The National Party is today proposing tougher measures for prisoners to get parole so that the privilege is not abused.

A major change in sentencing?

“National is the largest and most popularly supported party in Parliament.”

That’s debatable. The latest poll suggests otherwise. Saying it doesn’t make it so.

“National is the largest and most popularly supported party in Parliament. We’re doing the work in Opposition so we’re ready to hit the ground running in 2020. We’re also the party of law and order. The current Government wants to lower the prison population but has no plan to reduce crime. We will ensure criminals are punished for committing crimes, but also that prisoners are rehabilitated so they go on to lead productive lives.”

This is odd promotional crap for a press release.

National to speed up the court process

Having been a victim of very slow and inefficient and unfair court processes – prosecutors should have to comply with court rules and not continually abuse them – this sounds like a good idea. This year’s review into the justice system hardly seems to have tried to address this.

We’d also like to see Justices of the Peace used more for minor offences and traffic cases to free up judges time and courts used at night and on weekends. Most courts sit for four hours a day. Where there is legitimate need, and where the Court can sit, we would extend those hours to ensure people don’t have to wait months for their cases to be heard.

To use courts at night and weekends you would need a lot more JPs, judges and staff.

Judges do a lot of work outside of sitting times, so it is not just court hours that slows things down.

Strike Force Raptor Unit proposed to tackle gangs

National is proposing a new unit within the Police which would crack down on gangs and allow us take back control. A unit like ‘Strike Force Raptor’ would interrupt gang activity. If someone was punched outside a nightclub by a gang member, the unit would take over the case. If gang members didn’t pay their traffic fines, it would follow up to ensure their driver licences were taken away.

I think there’s a lot more serious things than those examples that need more attention. Those are really odd examples. Do gang members care about drivers licences now?

The specialist officers would check gang clubhouses and use council rules to shut them down for shoddy workmanship or unconsented work. If alcohol was being served at the gang pad, it would invoke legislation so the gangs need a liquor licence. Officers could check benefit payments and tax records for taxpayer assistance gang members weren’t entitled to.

I think that more attention should be given to trying to address things like violence and drug pushing.

I’m cynical – most of those looks like dressed up populist promotional material. Rhetoric in opposition usually doesn’t come to much when coming up against the realities of government.

Newsroom: Strike Force Raptor unit won’t stop organised crime

The National Party wants to set up a special police unit designed to disrupt, and ideally do away with, gangs.

The unit would be modelled after New South Wales’ Strike Force Raptor Unit, which was set up a decade ago, after a violent gang murder at a Sydney Airport.

The purpose of the unit is to disrupt activity of outlaw motorcycle gangs, by going after gang members and associates at every available opportunity.

But an Australian gang experts says a lot of resources go into the unit’s work, with little reward, especially when it came to the broader issue of organised crime and drug trafficking. Meanwhile, there were some concerns about the conduct of the elite squad.

Maybe National could do it better.

In October, police put the total number of patched gang members at 6735. The number of gang members has risen by about 1400 since this Government came into power.

While thereare many complex factors that have led to the rise in the number of gang members, the proliferation of methamphetamine, and related crime, National has attributed it to this Government’s “soft on crime” approach.

Hudson said gangs peddled misery in communities through manufacturing and dealing drugs, and carrying out violence.

“A unit like Strike Force Raptor would interrupt gang activity,” he said, as the party launched its law and order discussion document.

It may interrupt some gang activity, but would it really have a major affect on crime? Criminals generally find ways to work around the laws, whatever they are.

Do the strike force units work?

Goldsworthy said he had reservations about the amount of police resources and time that went into this type of policing for not a lot of reward.

While they were disrupting gang members regularly, he questioned whether they were actually stopping organised criminal activity, or just stopping a gang member for going to the pub. Goldsworthy noted the general crime rate continued to rise, despite these types of initiatives.

Bikie gangs in Australia committed less than 1 percent of all crime, he said, adding that this did not match up to the amount of focus and resources thrown at gangs.

Like many other gang and organised crime experts, Goldsworthy said the focus on bikie gangs missed the wider issues surrounding organised crime.

Not every member of a bikie gang engaged in criminal activity, and members that did engage in serious criminal activity like drug trafficking often did not do so as part of a gang chapter but rather outside the group.

There needed to be a smarter focus on those who were committing crime, rather than focusing on patched gang members because they were visible, and it was an easy political win.

Goldsworthy referenced some European countries that were moving towards focusing on markets, rather than groups of people. For example, if wastewater testing showed high levels of cocaine, law enforcement resources would be put into disrupting the market, rather than going after a group of people assumed to be trafficking.

Bridges from his speech:

To me it all raises one fundamental question. Are we serious or not? Like most New Zealanders, National isn’t fooled by gang PR campaigns. We know gangs peddle misery in the form of meth and violence and so we are serious. The Government I lead will harass and disrupt gangs every single day I am Prime Minister, with the single minded goal of eliminating them.

Will that include harassing innocent people because they are perceived to be a gang member?

 

Plenty to discuss from that.

 

 

 

Leave a comment

44 Comments

  1. Reply
    • Corky

       /  27th November 2019

      This from a sucker.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  27th November 2019

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  27th November 2019

          And then Nige and his crew left town & they carried on monstering anybody they wanted to.

          Reply
        • Corky

           /  27th November 2019

          Hmmm.. One out of ten doesn’t mean it consistently works. Plus Latta is an expert. What about the 99.9 percent of people who aren’t? What Latta has done is nothing spectacular. I have seen it done numerous times. But it’s dependant on the SITUATION. If those bros had had their blood lust up and were showing eyebright…Latta would be history. Stomped to death. If a gang leader orders a boot party, no matter what the individual gang banger feels, he will obey without question. Not to do so would mean he becomes the centre of a boot party.

          I think Conservative NZ needs to read my post.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  27th November 2019

            How many people have been kicked to death at ‘boot parties’ ?

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  27th November 2019

              It’s a serious question; how many ? 100 ? 1000?

              When & where were the last five ?

  2. Reply
    • Corky

       /  27th November 2019

      Take it to them, Simon. That type of talk is gaining you votes. Hell, even I’m tempted to come out of retirement and join the deluded at the polling booth. 😁

      However, Einstein was once asked, if he had one hour to save his life, how would he go about it? He said he would spend the first 55 minutes finding the right question.

      That’s what you need to do, son. You need to have found the RIGHT question; so you have the RIGHT answer when the more thoughtful voter puts your resolve to the test. Any glib table thumping bs is going to be found out very quickly.

      Start with how this is going to be financed. If you think hard you may realise financing will be bound to efficiency. The more efficient Raptor is, the less Raptor Squad will be needed. Raptor squad could always be in state of flux depending on its need.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  27th November 2019

        He was asked about what he’d do if he had an hour to SOLVE A PROBLEM and said that he’d spend 55 minutes on asking the right questions and 5 minutes on the solution.

        Saving his life didn’t come into it.

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  27th November 2019

          Look it up, PDTs, if you can’t accept that this is the correct version.

          Reply
        • Gezza

           /  28th November 2019

          “In conclusion, currently there is no known substantive support for the claim that Albert Einstein made one of these remarks. The earliest evidence points to an unknown academic at Yale University who may have made the statement given in the 1966 citation. The popular expression has been evolving for decades leading to a creative efflorescence of inaccuracies.”

          https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/05/22/solve/

          Reply
  3. Zedd

     /  27th November 2019

    TOUGH on Crime, Drugs & anyone who crossed their line of ‘decent society’..

    Q) where is your credibility.. Mr5% ?

    a) STRIKE FORCE Raptor… AWAY…… :/ :/

    Talk about ‘Lost the Plot, Simon’

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  27th November 2019

      Let’s hear your solutions for protecting the innocent? Talk about blowing hot air.

      Reply
      • Zedd

         /  27th November 2019

        vote for your mate.. MrT 😀
        NOW thats all about blowing HOT air.. corky

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  27th November 2019

          So, in other words, like Kitty, you have no plan or suggestions. You may as well stick to being a Google warrior like the former…and become an Einstein expert in the process.
          😊👍

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  27th November 2019

            Trolling & falsifying again, dear ? You just can’t help yourself, can you, poor dear? Poor old Corky, it’s very sad to witness this sort of thing.

            Did I claim to be an Einstein expert ? Of course not. I never have made this absurd claim.Another misrepresentation.

            Google warrior ? What a strange expression, and again one with no truth in it in this case.

            The Einstein story sounded so unlikely that it seemed as if it was probably a misquotation, which it was. If it sounds too far-fetched to be true, it probably is.

            ‘The former’ can’t be used when there’s only one. It means the first of two.There can’t be a first of one thing or person.

            Why do Zedd and I need to make plans for something over which we have no control or say ? What would be the use ? We’re not in government.

            Reply
          • Zedd

             /  28th November 2019

            UUURRRRRRR :/

            Reply
  4. duperez

     /  27th November 2019

    There is plenty to discuss. Academic discussions might be sensible on various aspects of the announcement. The likes of which you might get at law schools in Auckland and Oxford. Vital, necessary discussions. But not really.

    Not really because this is not about the brain, it’s about something far more raw – getting a vote.

    “Some seem unworkable or unfair – “Murderers who don’t reveal where bodies are, lose parole eligibility” means that those who have been wrongly found guilty and get a life sentence would have no way of getting parole.”

    Unfair? Wrongly found guilty? Unworkable? Who cares?

    Let the academics talk about such stuff like that in their legal ivory towers. You know, the places they have discourse about things like fascism.

    Reply
  5. Duker

     /  27th November 2019

    This is how they did run ‘law and order’ while in government
    The police budget has been frozen for the fifth consecutive year, and Government had no immediate plan to increase it again before 2018.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11255464
    The Crown Prosecutors had hefty cuts to their budgets too so that staff were laid off and even partners moved elsewhere (Rotorua), that mean plea deals were taken at first opportunity for major crimes and lessor ones had reduced charges

    Reply
  6. NOEL

     /  27th November 2019

    Chester Burrow’s analysis where at the end he suggests most of what is proposed is rhetoric is probably the most accurate.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/117730485/experts-nationals-law-and-order-proposals-sound-good-but-have-no-substance

    There will never be a blanket ban on “patches” because that will result in a mocking of any law by the gangs. Insufficient police to enforce it and the Courts would be overwhelmed.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  27th November 2019

      Hang on, I’ll have a listen. I sense a change in Mikey. Still wearing Kate’s jacket, but she’s made him wear a white T-shirt.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  27th November 2019

        The police put out their new policy on dealing with Maori re-offending the other day. It aims to reduce Maori re-offending by 25 percent. It replaces their last policy on Maori re-offending that didn’t work, and guess what? Neither will this.

        Why? Because police don’t prevent re-offending, those offending reduce offending by not offending. What we know is prisons work because those in jail don’t commit more crime. It’s a simple statement of fact.

        Wrong. What we know is that those in jail get out and commit more crime. And those not yet in jail commit crime too. Why?

        We got troubled last year when the prison population hit 10,000, a new record. What were we expecting? We want tougher punishment, and when we get it, we get taken by surprise.

        Well, the problem was the numbers who’d end up in prison, with the tougher policy, according to National were hopelessly underestimated, pulled out of someone'[s arse, showing that they didn’t have a clue; and that it was all about get tough rhetoric for votes.

        The reality is some people can’t be rehabbed.

        That'[s true but the likelihood is that that number is probably very small.

        Just how much per prisoner do we want to spend on welfare, on specialists, on crime prevention programmes, and on education on the overarching belief that if you throw enough state care at someone they are somehow going to go straight.

        Some will, of course, but many, and stats back it up, don’t and won’t.

        We need to stop young people & especially young Maori & part Maori (who get treated as Maori anyway) wanting to join the gangs. And we need those who are in them to get out of them. Having more of them doing lag isn’t going to do that. Getting banged up in the pokey in itself becomes a badge of toughness and the effective initiation into membership in many cases.

        I loathe the gangs, for all the reasons that most people who have an unpleasant encounter with them do. But we aren’t going to have enuf police to harass and intimidate all the gangs everywhere all the time. And so long as they keep manipulating whanaungatanga as well as they do all you are going to do is antagonise huge numbers of Maori & provoke cries of racism and set race relations back decades, imo.

        I’m not sure what the best approach is yet. But education, training, skills, something else to do and some stake in a decent future has to be a big part of stopping the gang recruitment problem. I wish Maoridom generally would come more on board with rejecting the gangs.

        Reply
        • Duker

           /  27th November 2019

          Does PD sentences reduce offending , most of one day a week ?
          The real answer is any sort of punishment doesnt really reduce offending in the way young offenders think.
          Prisons are mostly for community protection for both violence and prolific offenders.
          Most of them grow out of ingrained mindset.
          The reason for more crime and more in prison is simple – Age cohorts.
          Every year there is another large group of young men turning 17. No matter how much you lock up 19 yr olds , each year another cohort of 17 yrs old will start their
          first steps on a crime career, largely unaware of what happens to 19 yr olds.

          Reply
        • Corky

           /  27th November 2019

          ”Wrong. What we know is that those in jail get out and commit more crime. And those not yet in jail commit crime too. Why?”

          Depends which way you look at it. They aren’t committing crime while they are inside, are they/ Mikey said what I said previously – an offender must want to change. No amount help will work until that happens. The other reason for recidivist offending is crooks have no fear of the law or prison. I have covered that before.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  27th November 2019

            Depends which way you look at it. They aren’t committing crime while they are inside, are they?

            Stating the obvious, but missing the point that too many get out & reoffend. It’s why they reoffend & how to stop them wanting to that’s the conundrum people are trying to resolve.

            Mikey said what I said previously – an offender must want to change. No amount of help will work until that happens.

            Exactly.

            The other reason for recidivist offending is crooks have no fear of the law or prison.

            Exactly. And it won’t matter how hard prison is made for them that won’t change unless their circumstances & situation do on release.

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  27th November 2019

              I have covered that before in a reply to Pete, re release of prisoners back into society. The point is we are yet to try a hard prison environment. It can be made much harder. Given people don’t like pain, I believe crooks would be far more likely to reassess their lives.

  7. oldlaker

     /  27th November 2019

    Urban liberals fall easily for the gangs’ PR push of them being a “social grouping” and somehow manage to overlook their unpleasant habits of intimidation, running the meth trade, and (weirdly for the #MeToo crowd) raping and subjugating women.
    People living in gang-dominated towns, say in Northland and the East Coast, are not so tolerant… for obvious reasons.
    Bridges’ push may not go down well in Grey Lynn or Ponsonby but it won’t hurt his chances in towns like Wairoa and Kaeo.

    Reply
    • Duker

       /  27th November 2019

      Who is saying they are benign influence that we can look the other way.?

      Wait a minute…
      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3843722/New-Zealand-Prime-Minister-John-Key-supports-Tribal-Huk-gang-leaders-meth-ban.html

      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/politics/sharples-gang-meeting-not-issue-pm
      “”I am comfortable with that,” Mr Key told NewstalkZB this morning.”

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  27th November 2019

        I don’t know much about Tribal Huk, but do know that Jamie Pink is a blowbag. His announcement about the dealers being driven out was made when he hijacked a meeting about something else. He makes ridiculous claims, like having an eye shot out and his car shot at by two old ladies with a tommy gun.Or perhaps a tommy gun each, I forget which. No one noticed these women with their tommy gun/s and no one heard anything.

        I know someone who was at the Ngaruawahia Marae during one visit by the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall, Jamie Pink was there and began acting so strangely that he was removed before the arrival of the royal couple.

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  27th November 2019

          He has since been in court on drugs charges, as well as GBH and firearms charges.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  27th November 2019

            It would take too long to list all his convictions; offensive weapons, assault, drugs, firearms….more than one of each of these. No year seems to pass without a court appearance by Mr Pink.

            The eye supposedly shot out by the tommygun seems to have grown back.

            His claim to have driven out the P dealers with sledgehammers and general violence, was news to the police who say that there is no evidence that drug use in the town has changed at all.

            He’s a liar and a crook himself, no better than the ones he slags off.

            Reply
            • Duke

               /  27th November 2019

              Aren’t you missing the whole point…we already he’s a thug …it was who was ‘supporting him’
              I suppose the government who crushed only 3 cars before declaring problem solved can’t be trusted to do anything other wave some more discussion papers to move 5% Simon’s poll ratings …… Notice Judith isn’t saying a peep

      • Gezza

         /  27th November 2019

        Notice Judith isn’t saying a peep

        Judith’s not saying a peep because this is National’s Law & Order Team 2019

        It’s interesting, now that you raise the issue, that we don’t see much about boy racer problems in the msm these days.

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  27th November 2019

          National has painted itself into a corner. It’s either deliver..or face political annihilation

          Reply
  8. NOEL

     /  27th November 2019

    For this to be effective it will require new laws.
    We don’t wan’t to follow NSW to closely.

    https://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/42417/Review-of-police-use-of-powers-under-the-Crimes-Criminal-Organisations-Control-Act-2012.pdf

    “Despite high expectations, however, in practice no police force in Australia has been able to successfully utilise the legislation.”

    Reply
  9. Corky

     /  27th November 2019

    Surely this is a work of fiction? What? Unlocked shops at night?

    https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/01/15/why-singapores-crime-rate-is-so-low.html

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  28th November 2019

      No guns at home allowed there. If you want to own one the requirements are stringent; & you have to belong to a gun club & leave it there.

      Singapore has strict laws & punishments for even very minor offences or breaches of civil codes, they’re ALWAYS enforced without fear or favour (even the POTUS famously got ignored when he tried to heavy them out of caning a young yank minor offender), the population’s educated about personal & civic responsibility from a very young age, smacking’s allowed & common at home, fines are very high.

      Drug use is low, punished, & trafficking can get you executed. Everyone knows it.

      Currently 2.3% unemployment; but workers & employees are well-paid, including the police, so that crime & corruption are unnecessary.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  28th November 2019

        CCTV cameras are everywhere, people are encouraged to report crime immediately & do so without fear of retaliation because the police act on crime reports straight away; offenders are quickly apprehended & punished.

        Reply
  10. Corky

     /  27th November 2019

    Johnny V Kid Raptor.

    Simon gets a taste of what he will be up against from liberals. Let’s hope he found the question to ensure his survival.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/117740670/simon-bridges-and-john-campbell-clash-talking-about-gangs-on-breakfast

    Reply
  1. National’s Law and Order ‘discussion document’ — Your NZ – NZ Conservative Coalition

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