Trump lurches into undermining of state lockdowns

Donald Trump is well known for his inconsistencies and swings, He recently claimed to have supreme power over state governments in dealing with Covid, and then appeared to backtrack a bit.

Now he’s playing with lives and livelihoods in appearing to support protests against Covid-19 lockdowns in states with Democrat governors.

This is just after issuing guidelines for reopening businesses and schools – Trump’s coronavirus reopening guidelines:

President Donald Trump rolled out his guidelines for how the United States can reopen businesses and schools shut down by the coronavirus Thursday evening.

  1. States should have a “downward trajectory” of COVID-19 cases for a 14-day period before reopening, or a downward trajectory of positive tests for the same time period, given flat or increasing testing levels.
  2. U.S. states have core responsibility for testing and tracing citizens. A list of “core state preparedness responsibilities” includes the “ability to quickly set up safe and efficient screening and testing sites” and ensure “surveillance sites are screening for asymptomatic cases” and COVID-19 positive people are traced. U.S. testing to date has been delayed here and chaotic, thanks to federal government roadblocks and failures. Alphabet’s (GOOGL.O) Google and Apple Inc (AAPL.O) are working together on software to make contact tracing easier, but that will not be available here until mid-May.
  3. Phase 1 of the reopening recommends that schools and daycare facilities remain closed and that people maintain social distancing in public. Businesses should continue to encourage teleworking, and meetings of more than 10 people should be discouraged. Event spaces like movie theaters can reopen, with “strict” social distancing measures in place. Elective surgeries can resume, on an outpatient basis. Non-essential travel and visits to senior living facilities should remain suspended. Gyms can reopen, with proper sanitation and distances, but bars should not.
  4. Phase 2 of the plan, which states should progress to after another 14-day decline in positive cases, includes lifting the ban on non-essential travel. It recommends businesses continue to encourage teleworking and close common areas where people congregate. Employers should consider special accommodation for personnel who are members of a “vulnerable population,” which is defined as the elderly or people with underlying conditions like obesity, asthma and chronic lung conditions. Schools and youth activities can resume, and bars can reopen with minimized standing room areas. Large venues, like sporting arenas and houses of worship, can operate under “moderate” physical distancing. Elective surgeries on an in-patient business can resume.
  5. Phase 3 of the plan, which states can enter after another 14-day period of declining cases, allows businesses to resume “unrestricted staffing” of worksites, and visits to senior homes to resume. Large venues can operate with limited physical distancing guidelines and bars can increase standing-room-only areas.

But despite this Trump appears to be encouraging people protesting against lockdowns in some states.

Total deaths to Friday 111 deaths from Covid (+17 today)

Currently 2,227 deaths from Covid (+134 today)

Currently 231 deaths from Covid (+23 today).

USA Today:Trump calls to ‘liberate’ states where protesters have demanded easing coronavirus lockdowns

President Donald Trump called on supporters Friday to “liberate” states that have experienced protests over coronavirus lockdowns, a day after he unveiled guidelines aimed at reopening the nation’s economy.

Less than 24 hoursafter declining to name states he felt are prepared to begin easing social distancing guidelines to halt the spread of the virus, Trump named Virginia, Michigan and Minnesota as states that could benefit from what he described as liberation.

Trump has lurched from slamming Democratic governors, to saying he has developed friendships with them and back to attacking them. In a series of combative tweets Friday, Trump defended his performance on the virus, renewed his criticism of New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and attacked his predecessor, President Barack Obama.

All three states that Trump called to “liberate”are led by Democratic governors, and all three have experienced protests in recent days demanding a rollback of stay-at-home orders. Demonstrators drove thousands of vehicles to Michigan’s state Capitol this week to protest Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s stay-at-home order, for instance.

This is dangerous incitement from Trump. With recent jumps in poll support reversing Trump appears to be campaigning in key election states – as usual it’s all bout him, but with Covid many lives are potentially at stake.

Trump has also lurched back into attacking China, Obama and Biden (over H1N1), and Governor Cuomo of New York who wanted more medical equipment.

And it looks like a surge of deaths in the US. Yesterday 2,174,  today 2535, current total 37,154.

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100 Comments

  1. Reply
    • That coming out may explain why Trump has been spraying around on Twitter trying to divert attention.

      Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  18th April 2020

      Except that:
      Colonel Shane Day, the NCMI director, denied last week that any such report existed. “As a matter of practice the National Center for Medical Intelligence does not comment publicly on specific intelligence matters,” he said. “However, in the interest of transparency during this current public health crisis, we can confirm that media reporting about the existence/release of a National Center for Medical Intelligence Coronavirus-related product/assessment in November of 2019 is not correct. No such NCMI product exists.”

      Source is a newspaper reporting a tv station reporting another tv station.

      Fake News?

      Reply
      • Yes the statement by the NCMI director probably does qualify as fake news.

        It’s carefully worded to deny a specific NCMI ‘assessment/product’ was released in November 2019. If I recall correctly, the White House specifically classified coronavirus meetings as high level security. Staffers without security clearances, including government experts, were excluded from the interagency meeting. so it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that thePentagon would try to deny their report existed.

        Yet the fact remains others have been able to talk authoritatively about the contents:

        “Concerns about what is now known to be the novel coronavirus pandemic were detailed in a November intelligence report by the military’s National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI), according to two officials familiar with the document’s contents.

        The report was the result of analysis of wire and computer intercepts, coupled with satellite images. It raised alarms because an out-of-control disease would pose a serious threat to U.S. forces in Asia — forces that depend on the NCMI’s work. And it paints a picture of an American government that could have ramped up mitigation and containment efforts far earlier to prepare for a crisis poised to come home.

        “Analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event,” one of the sources said of the NCMI’s report. “It was then briefed multiple times to” the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and the White House.”

        https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/intelligence-report-warned-coronavirus-crisis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  18th April 2020

          That is the sole source. A couple of anonymous talking heads directly refuted by the HoD.

          Reply
    • Pink David

       /  18th April 2020

      How many smoking guns have you smoked on Trump in the last 3 years?

      I notice you have not posted anything on the Steele dossier being entirely a construct of Russian Intelligence. Given you previous interest in the subject that seems surprising.

      Reply
  2. Duker

     /  18th April 2020

    15 times Trump Praised China and their success with Covid 19

    These are Trumps words not some assumptions by others
    POLITICO has compiled a list of 15 times the president hailed China for its push to prevent a pandemic in the early months of 2020 — an effort that ultimately failed:

    Jan. 22, Twitter:
    “One of the many great things about our just signed giant Trade Deal with China is that it will bring both the USA & China closer together in so many other ways. Terrific working with President Xi, a man who truly loves his country. Much more to come!”

    Jan. 24, Twitter:
    “China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”

    Jan. 29, Remarks at signing ceremony for the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement:

    “And, honestly, I think, as tough as this negotiation was, I think our relationship with China now might be the best it’s been in a long, long time. And now it’s reciprocal. Before, we were being ripped off badly. Now we have a reciprocal relationship, maybe even better than reciprocal for us.”

    Jan. 30, Fox News interview:

    “China is not in great shape right now, unfortunately. But they’re working very hard. We’ll see what happens. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries.”

    Feb. 7, Remarks at North Carolina Opportunity Now Summit in Charlotte, N.C.:

    “I just spoke to President Xi last night, and, you know, we’re working on the — the problem, the virus. It’s a — it’s a very tough situation. But I think he’s going to handle it. I think he’s handled it really well. We’re helping wherever we can.”

    Feb. 7, Twitter:

    “Just had a long and very good conversation by phone with President Xi of China. He is strong, sharp and powerfully focused on leading the counterattack on the Coronavirus. He feels they are doing very well, even building hospitals in a matter of only days … Great discipline is taking place in China, as President Xi strongly leads what will be a very successful operation. We are working closely with China to help!

    Feb. 7, Remarks before Marine One departure:

    “Late last night, I had a very good talk with President Xi, and we talked about — mostly about the coronavirus. They’re working really hard, and I think they are doing a very professional job. They’re in touch with World — the World — World Organization. CDC also. We’re working together. But World Health is working with them. CDC is working with them. I had a great conversation last night with President Xi. It’s a tough situation. I think they’re doing a very good job.”

    Feb. 10, Fox Business interview:

    “I think China is very, you know, professionally run in the sense that they have everything under control,” Trump said. “I really believe they are going to have it under control fairly soon. You know in April, supposedly, it dies with the hotter weather. And that’s a beautiful date to look forward to. But China I can tell you is working very hard.”

    Feb. 10, campaign rally in Manchester, N.H.:

    “I spoke with President Xi, and they’re working very, very hard. And I think it’s all going to work out fine.”

    Feb. 13, Fox News interview:

    “I think they’ve handled it professionally and I think they’re extremely capable and I think President Xi is extremely capable and I hope that it’s going to be resolved.”

    Feb. 18, remarks before Air Force One departure:

    “I think President Xi is working very hard. As you know, I spoke with him recently. He’s working really hard. It’s a tough problem. I think he’s going to do — look, I’ve seen them build hospitals in a short period of time. I really believe he wants to get that done, and he wants to get it done fast. Yes, I think he’s doing it very professionally.”

    Feb. 23, remarks before Marine One departure:

    “I think President Xi is working very, very hard. I spoke to him. He’s working very hard. I think he’s doing a very good job. It’s a big problem. But President Xi loves his country. He’s working very hard to solve the problem, and he will solve the problem. OK?”

    Feb. 26, remarks at a business roundtable in New Delhi, India:

    “China is working very, very hard. I have spoken to President Xi, and they’re working very hard. And if you know anything about him, I think he’ll be in pretty good shape. They’re — they’ve had a rough patch, and I think right now they have it — it looks like they’re getting it under control more and more. They’re getting it more and more under control.”

    Feb. 27, Coronavirus Task Force press conference:

    “I spoke with President Xi. We had a great talk. He’s working very hard, I have to say. He’s working very, very hard. And if you can count on the reports coming out of China, that spread has gone down quite a bit. The infection seems to have gone down over the last two days. As opposed to getting larger, it’s actually gotten smaller.”

    Feb. 29, Coronavirus Task Force press conference:

    “China seems to be making tremendous progress. Their numbers are way down. … I think our relationship with China is very good. We just did a big trade deal. We’re starting on another trade deal with China — a very big one. And we’ve been working very closely. They’ve been talking to our people, we’ve been talking to their people, having to do with the virus.”

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/15/trump-china-coronavirus-188736

    Reply
    • duperez

       /  18th April 2020

      Selected quotes. They don’t tell the whole story. I know that after hearing Trump say something in the past fortnight and trying to put it into context. How many times do you meet with someone and in what sort of situations before you say, “I know her really well, she’s a very good friend.”?
      The Chinese President is a very good friend of the American one and the American one knows him ‘very well.’ We’ve been told.
      They’re almost like brothers. 😂

      I like the way ‘mine’ is used too. He’s a very good friend of ‘mine.’ “Na na na na na, look who my friend is, you haven’t go an important friend, you haven’t got a friend, I’ve got a friend!”

      And who wouldn’t throw their brother under a bus if needed? I mean we were just playing. 😊

      Reply
      • More selective quotes:

        March 27:
        Trump says “I’ve always known this is a real, this is a pandemic. I’ve felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic.”

        https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVC5G4I5B

        April 16:
        Trump says he’s angry he wasn’t told there was a pandemic: “And I was angry, because this should have been told to us. It should have been told to us early. It should have been told to us a lot sooner. People knew it was happening and people didn’t want to talk about it.”

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  18th April 2020

          Newsflash: all the countries that pay bugger all to support the WHO don’t want the US to stop.

          Situation normal.

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  18th April 2020

            US only pays 20% of WHO budget , its a mix of levies and voluntary donations

            Reply
          • Newsflash: while Trump desperately tries to blame everyone else for his incompetence, Ireland has just quadrupled its annual contribution to the WHO.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  18th April 2020

              Splendid. Since Ireland contributes about $1.6M (0.04%) of WHO’s $4.4B budget that will be a big help.

      • To be fair it IS unreasonable using Trump’s own words against him. After all everyone knows that just like Auckland’s weather if you wait ten minutes the story will be completely different.

        Case in point: two days ago Trump was touting his absolute authority, today he’s told the state governors it’s all over to them.

        Classic Trump. He fucks up testing, and then he just walks away and leaves it to the states to be responsible for testing.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  18th April 2020

          Seems perfect logic. If states have the authority they must take the blame?

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  18th April 2020

            States cant close airports ( under FAA jurisdiction) only Trump can

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  18th April 2020

              It isn’t necessary to close the airports, merely to constrain who could enter the state through them which is what some Governors have done as I understand.

          • artcroft

             /  18th April 2020

            But Trump has the authority. He said so.

            Reply
            • Alan selectively ignores what trump says when it doesnt fit Alan’s narrative.

            • Duker

               /  18th April 2020

              EXACT WORDS ARE
              ‘When somebody’s the president of the United States, the authority is total,”
              “And that’s the way it’s got to be.”
              HE GOT SPANKED ON THAT ONE

  3. Alan Wilkinson

     /  18th April 2020

    All politicians are playing with lives and livelihoods now.

    It is a war. Truth is the first casualty of war. I think we saw that here with the media playing Govt PR Dept. But that is breaking down I hope.

    Reply
    • Gerrit

       /  18th April 2020

      No hope am afraid. Notice the news regarding David Parker secrecy about Crown Law Office advice on the legality of the lockdown and who has what powers. All gone from the MSM. Only available now on scoop.

      https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2004/S00091/public-needs-to-see-legal-advice-on-lockdown.htm

      Reply
      • Duker

         /  18th April 2020

        I found it this morning checking on something oldlaker said
        Soooo…

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  18th April 2020

          We are not allowed to know what their legal advisors consider lawful and what is not. Funny that, Duker. Wonder why if powers are unlimited? Wonder why Parker said they haven’t breached the Bill of Rights?

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  18th April 2020

            That could be so , but its standard ministerial procedure to maintain confidentiality of legal advice.
            You can read the gazette notices and the various Acts , there is no mystery involved
            However I wouldn’t think Crown Law has any special ability in these sorts of things as you would know this more than most …a Government department of Lawyers is sort of weird but Ministers have no choice but go by it.
            The Police Commissioner gave up his legal advice ‘guidelines’ for what the Police can do . Immediately wrongly interpreted by media as Police cant do anything, when the guidelines said ‘under existing police powers’ , but delegated powers under health Act and Civil Defence Emergency gave wide authority to act

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  18th April 2020

            I’m pretty sure from my experience in the public service that Jacinda & co – & especially their top departmental advisers – who would have to implement it – would not have dared roll out their current Covid-19 strategy without seeking & getting very thorough legal advice on their proposals.

            Another thing I learned is that, when the Ombudsman made fairly regular observations when investigating complaints from aggrieved parties that he did not consider all legal advice to departments should be withheld under a blanket prohibition from release under the Official Information Act, as far as our Chief Legal Officer – who I had a high regard for – was concerned, he could go whistle Dixie.

            Lawyers – including departmental, & I likely Crown Law Office ones – will not easily let go of the absolute privilege that applies to lawyer/client communications. Even when that advice is ubcontroversial.

            To him, opening any tiny chink in the legal armour of attorney / client privilege that way was anathema & potentially the thin end of a wedge he wouldn’t countenance. It was safer & within the law to apply a blanket non-dislosure policy, that even extended to withholding the name of the legal advisers, & so he did so.

            It also protects their bad advice, or their legal uncertainty, from being known, of course. Reputations are everything. A blanket non-disclosure of legal advice to OIA requests policy ensured that no departmental staffer or junior legal adviser made the mistake of releasing something that would be controversial or problematic for the Legal Services division.

            It would only ever be released to a Court or an Authority or Tribunal which was entitled to see it.

            It may have happened, but I’m not personally aware of any Tribunal decision which ever ruled against the CLO that withheld legal advice had to be released.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  18th April 2020

              How often was it voluntarily released by politicians?

            • Gezza

               /  18th April 2020

              In the case of my last department, for which I worked the longest, & mostly in the where I capacities to see the comms between senior officials and Ministers, not once. The CLO was well known & well respected.

              He came to & spoke at my work farewell, with typical knowing dry wit & very complimentarily.

              I reminded him afterwards that the reason he was always held in such regard was his clarity & incisiveness: that he would “…never say in 10 words what he could say in one” .

              And that yet curiously, the rather flashy young lawyer who he had appointed to take over his former role in vetting most OIA releases had precisely the reverse talent. Irritatingly, he would never say in one word what he could say in 10 !😀

            • Gezza

               /  18th April 2020

              And the other thing that I learned about departmental lawyers is how they see their role. They are not there to tell the department what it cannot legally do (altho that will often form a part of their advice.

              The department is their client. They are there to tell the department HOW they can legal,y do it.

              I would expect Crown Law to have a similar brief.

            • Gezza

               /  18th April 2020

              FiP! 😠

              *the missing close bracket ➡️ )

              **They are there to tell the department HOW they can legally do it.

            • Duker

               /  18th April 2020

              Wasnt the Red Zone declaration in Christchurch stuffed up and had to be redone ….mumble gerry who dunnit

            • The restrictions did seem to be made up as the Govt went along.

              People could drive to a place for exercise, but were stopped if they did. They could go to the supermarket if they were over 70, but were then scolded as if they were naughty children (even though the supermarkets had priority for them) and told that YOU MUST STAY AT HOME.

              Even walking too far has become a crime, from the sound of it.

            • Gezza

               /  18th April 2020

              Wasnt the Red Zone declaration in Christchurch stuffed up and had to be redone ….mumble gerry who dunnit

              Dunno. I don’t live in Christchurch.

              If you mean Brownlee, why do you call him mumble gerry ?

            • Gezza

               /  19th April 2020

              @ Kitty

              Yes, I agree. It was a shambolic rollout in some respects. But, to be fair, in some instances, if not others, that was only to be expected when a team of ordinary people like you & me suddenly found themselves tasked with devising & putting into effect – urgently – a national epidemic plan that had to provide for a complete lockdown of the whole country – in real time, & actual reality – not just some drill a few bureaucrats can lazily sit back & evaluate as an academic exercise.

              No doubt there were multi-departmental inputs from multiple teams, brainstorming & trying to think of as many impacts & scenarios as they could – but this was for real, & had to be implemented. There were bound to be gaps & oversights. It would only ever be possible to cover off as many conceivable situations as could be predicted or assumed to be likely scenarios by the people involved at the time.

              There was no time for something like a national consultation paper or a select committee process.

              In fact, if you think about it in those terms (i.e. if you’d be given the job, what would you have come up with, & what would you have never even thought of?) it is to the credit of the PM (through setting up the Epidemic Response Committee) &nto her other involved senior officials, that they have consistently shown themselves willing to receive & consider suggestions & questions in emails & at press conferences etc.

              They have been generous & fair in allowing for public scrutiny & feedback throughout the implementation of the 4 level strategy, on an ongoing basis, & are clearly prepared to adjust, cancel or implement rules as unforeseen situations or adverse consequences reveal themselves. That, for all the moaning & complaints from some critics (which may at times include me) is a strength, not a weakness, in the planning, imo.

              And some parts if the strategy unquestionably worked very well. The written publicity material & notices fired out to Rest Homes & workplaces, & individual households has been done very professionally & is worthy of acclaim, for example.

              The inconsistent application of lockdown travel & activity restrictions by the police has, I think, been addressed to a fairly large extent by the release of the police guidelines – at I believe the instigation of the Epidemic Response Committee. The poor old girls n boys in blue suddenly found themselves at the front end of having to enforce some arbirtary theoretical rules in real life situations that hadn’t been able to be predicted & worked thru.

              Those too are, I believe, still a work in process. And that too, is a good thing, imo.

  4. Trump told the governors to call the shots because he didn’t want the responsibility and now he’s telling his supporters to fight the governors. He really is the worst enemy America has ever faced.

    Reply
  5. lurcher1948

     /  18th April 2020

    Orange man,is thick,thin skinned and stupid, and so are most trumpers…says it all
    and a draft dodging “bonespur” coward who NEVER TAKES ANY BLAME

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  18th April 2020

      Remind us with a list of politicians who have taken blame for this crisis, Lurch?

      It must be a long one if Trump’s absence stands out.

      Reply
      • artcroft

         /  18th April 2020

        NY Gov Cuomo took responsibly for the decisions he made.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  18th April 2020

          What exactly were his mistakes he admitted, Arty?

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  18th April 2020

            Thats True . The Mayor and Governor left it too late to bring in isolations so are responsible in a big way for their problem
            At First they Said New York is special it wont get to the level that it was in Lombardy
            Once NY city exceeded Lombardy they said its because New York is special.
            https://slate.com/business/2020/04/coronavirus-new-york-city-outbreak-blame.html
            Some of the worst outbreaks are in low density Staten Island. And Miami has more apartments per capita. Paris is denser and has more use of mass transit

            Reply
    • lurcher1948

       /  18th April 2020

      Alan refer to my comment on my views on trumpers above

      Reply
  6. Griff.

     /  18th April 2020

    How can someone spend their time defending the undefendable ?
    How can they continue to deny the mans own words?
    How does that work ?
    Brainwashed cult member ?

    Reply
    • Duker

       /  18th April 2020

      Its battered wife syndrome via social media… no matter how bad he is and the terrible things he says , the complete lies and flip flops …they still love him and by staying with him shows they are true believers and they will be rewarded eventually
      Wilco specializes in the ‘he doesnt mean what he says ‘ or we are all ‘taking it too seriously’ as that is the only way he can stop his head from exploding

      Reply
    • Conspiratoor

       /  18th April 2020

      I’ll assume these are genuine questions and not a piss take. So let me advance two reasons

      Could it be the ‘brainwashed cult members’ have inquiring minds and prefer not to swallow the media spin. Witness how easy Ishmael’s breathless claims above have been batted away
      And you’ll probably find most of the unwashed tend to focus more on tangible outcomes than words. As an old zen monk once told me ‘words are so weak they cannot even move the leaves on the trees’

      Actually there is probably a third, and this applies to a couple of the protagonists here. They are just having fun with bloggers who take themselves too seriously

      Reply
      • Duker

         /  18th April 2020

        Trumps actions mirror his words ..total cluster smuck

        When you are a leader words do matter … as many leaders inspire and move their followers.
        perhaps you have heard of one phrase . Make America Great Again…actually a very good slogan
        Your Zen monk should stick to raking the gravel

        Reply
      • Griff.

         /  18th April 2020

        Could it be the ‘brainwashed cult members’ have inquiring minds and prefer not to swallow the media spin.

        It is not media spin its the guys documented own words and deeds.
        This is part of the cult mentally dont believe anything if it does not support the cult even if it is demonstrable true .

        And you’ll probably find most of the unwashed tend to focus more on tangible outcomes than words

        Word can and do have tangible outcomes.
        The regimes response to this crises has been failure piled on failure. There has not been any leadership in the incoherent often contradictory measures taken .

        Actually there is probably a third, and this applies to a couple of the protagonists here. They are just having fun with bloggers who take themselves too seriously

        Bullshite its fire fighting the latest pile of shite generated by a incompetent narcissistic retard.

        Trumpsim is a Cult .

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  18th April 2020

          To be fair (why, I hear you ask) the expert advice has been immensely contradictory:
          1. It’s not spread between humans/yes it is but not much/its very infectious
          2. Only people with symptoms are infectious/the peak infectiousness is pre-symptoms
          3. There are no asymptomatic cases/there may be a lot of asymptomatic cases
          4. Only old ill people are at risk/healthy younger people and medics are dying
          5. Hospitals will be overwhelmed unless we have big numbers of beds/big hospitals have the worst outcomes
          6. Ventilators are essential and we need thousands/most people on ventilators die and other breathing aids are safer
          7. Without drastic enforcement of isolation millions will die/thousands will die
          8. The public shouldn’t wear masks/yes they should
          9. We’ll soon have an antibody test/they don’t work because young people don’t produce enough antibodies.
          10. Two metre separation is a safe space/no it isn’t
          11. Herd immunity is inevitable/no it isn’t/it might be

          That isn’t the end but it is enough to make the point. How were politicians supposed to navigate that?

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  18th April 2020

            Its NOT very infectious
            Germany is at 1.0 new infections for every one. Yet if it goes to 1.3 their health system is overwhelmed in about 2 months

            The chancellor went into detailed explanations of the science behind her own plan.
            A key variable the government was looking at, she said, is the so-called reproduction factor of the virus — the number of people an infected person passes the virus on to.
            That factor currently stands at about 1, she said, meaning that one person gets infected by every newly infected person. If that factor rose even to 1.1, the German health care system would reach capacity by October, she said.
            If it were allowed to rise to 1.2 — so out of five infected people one infects not one but two additional people — that limit is reached by July.
            “With 1.3,” Ms. Merkel continued, “we have reached the limit of our health care system by June.”

            NY Times
            measels is very infectious at 10 to 12 . Thats right 10x Covid 19.
            The real issue with low R0 number its that just under half have no symptoms even after a week .
            Thats the game changer compared to flu, where people (mostly) have symptoms within 12 hrs and they (mostly) isolate quickly because you feel so crook.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  18th April 2020

              You are confusing different conditions. The observed infectivity depends on what isolation and contact tracing mechanisms are in place as well as the intrinsic behaviour of the disease.

            • Duker

               /  18th April 2020

              R is the effective reproduction number
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number

              What you are now referring to is ‘speed’ of the infection spread, a different thing

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  18th April 2020

              Rubbish. What Germany is reporting is the effective reproduction number. What your disease comparison is reporting is the basic reproduction number. Some definitions, such as that of the Australian Department of Health, add absence of “any deliberate intervention in disease transmission”.

          • duperez

             /  18th April 2020

            How they’re supposed to navigate it is irrelevant. All they have to do is navigate it and navigate it ‘right.’ That’s why they can’t win and won’t ever win because ‘right’ is down to every single man and his dog’s interpretation of it.

            Of course some have help in determining what is right. A radio talkback host tells them so they know for sure they’re right. Some are born with a gene, a default setting to do with politics.

            I have to say I find it so easy being right all the time. While luxuriating in that knowledge I also relish that I don’t have to make the real decisions. Frustrating that my total always rightness doesn’t get to be the way things go, but hey, that’s the world’s loss! 😊

            A scientist in the Northern Advocate today is miffed about the judgement and decisions of those in the driver’s seat. Because he’s a qualified scientist he knows he’s right. Which means that the qualified scientists behind the assessment and judgements made and acted on, which those scientists know are right, are wrong.

            It’s fun when there are 4,000,000 back seat drivers all with a separate maps and GPS. 🤔

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  18th April 2020

              I think you might have discovered why freedom and democracy are important, dups.

  7. duperez

     /  18th April 2020

    Scholars and researchers will have 100 years of stuff to play with when it’s all over. From epidemiology, to propaganda to nPow, a veritable feast will be laid out.

    The phenomenon of a leader getting the role by seeking to divide, then in crisis seeking to unite, then encouraging civil unrest and division is a beauty.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  18th April 2020

      Nicely put, dups. I’m sure Trumpy would agree.

      Reply
    • Pink David

       /  18th April 2020

      They worked it out a couple of hundreds of years ago. It’s a good read.

      Extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds

      Reply
  8. Pink David

     /  18th April 2020

    Perhaps Trump is much smarter than all those here and has looked at the actual science.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1

    Reply
    • Duker

       /  18th April 2020

      if you were smarter you would know that unpublished draft research is only intended for experts in that field , not home desk chumps who havent a clue and just search for a few phrases

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  18th April 2020

        If you were smarter you would know that information can be considered by anyone, not just those it is intended for.

        And then you would address the facts instead of the person.

        Reply
        • Duker

           /  18th April 2020

          80 times is nonsense
          Santa Clara County is Silicon valley with 1.92 mill people

          View at Medium.com
          ” If we follow the authors and just combine these, they had 2 false positives out of 401 total. As Jeffrey Spence observed, this is actually a high enough rate to potentially mess up the whole study.”

          As I was saying about Chumps

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  18th April 2020

            The error range was certainly wide so that is a valid criticism rather than your last effort. The truth is we don’t know but have reason to suspect.

            FWIW (not much) I find a significantly better match for the NZ data with a large rather than small fraction of undetected infections.

            Reply
      • Pink David

         /  18th April 2020

        “if you were smarter you would know that unpublished draft research is only intended for experts in that field , not home desk chumps who havent a clue and just search for a few phrases”

        Your projection is telling.

        Reply
        • Duker

           /  18th April 2020

          Im not projecting at all. Its not something Im interested in at all
          https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05789-4
          Just happened to notice your devotion to them.
          have you published in any of those fields and really know what they are talking about and not just look at stuff to show ‘Trump knows the science’ …now that is projecting something on the self proclaimed smartest guy around.

          Reply
        • Duker

           /  18th April 2020

          Others are ‘peer reviewing’ the pre print research…..more holes than a gruyere, the consensus is from the stories of people who took up the testing offer, they did so because they were exposed through contact with a carrier but in those times without symptoms didn’t ‘qualify’ for free CDC funded test.
          Not a random sample. Another question raised ,but may come to nothing, was the anti body test not specific enough and may be picking up some of the other human Corona viruses.
          I might get interested in this sort of stuff….from rooster t feather duster all in 1 or 2 days

          Reply
  9. As for Trump’s LIBERATE tweets, let’s not normalise this: the President of the United States is encouraging American citizens to engage in armed rebellion.

    He sent this tweet a day after his supporters showed up with assault weapons at state capitols. As far as fomenting mischief goes, he knows exactly what’s he’s doing.

    Reply
    • Pink David

       /  18th April 2020

      Tweeting in support of the US Constitution? How on earth can a President justify that! He should be investigated immediately!

      “He sent this tweet a day after his supporters showed up with assault weapons at state capitols. As far as fomenting mischief goes, he knows exactly what’s he’s doing.”

      So it’s not the politicians in those state capitols who are suspending the Constitution that are ‘fomenting mischief? I marvel at your lack of awareness.

      Reply
      • Duker

         /  18th April 2020

        Tweeting in support of what ? There are tons of federal and state laws restricting gun ownership in all sorts of ways. Including by Secret Service when Trump is around.
        It certainly doesnt allow you to rise up against the state government.
        a hand gun in the home is the absolute minimum
        Why just the other Trump was saying, in complete contradiction to Constitution, that he has absolute authority.

        Reply
        • Pink David

           /  18th April 2020

          All rights under the Constitution have been suspended as part of the lock down.

          “It certainly doesnt allow you to rise up against the state government.”

          It certainly does. Perhaps you should read it.

          Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  18th April 2020

      A gentle reminder that state power is not absolute when citizens bear arms?

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  18th April 2020

        a revolutionary lurks within…whoever would have thunk…it!

        Reply
      • Gezza

         /  18th April 2020

        Look outside your bubble a bit more at the world. It depends who those citizens are & whether they are acting at the instigation or with approval of the leaders of states whose powers theoretically are not absolute, but in reality are, or might as well be.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  18th April 2020

          I looked out of my bubble and couldn’t see any sense in that.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  18th April 2020

            Where did you look?

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  18th April 2020

              I looked at your lines and between your lines and there was nothing in either place.

            • Gezza

               /  18th April 2020

              There have been, & I think still are, nominally democratic states which have organised gangs of thugs – sometimes euphemistically referred to as paramilitaries or militias – who routinely threaten, maim & kill opposition leaders and critics of their presidents or ruling parties, Al. But you need to look. I will dig around sometime & find you some, but not tonite because I’m tired & your little throw away one liner doesn’t merit the effort.

            • Gezza

               /  18th April 2020

              (Mugabe’s “War Veterans” attacking white farmers spring to mind tho)

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  18th April 2020

              Ok, I get your point. But Trump doesn’t get to choose who can bear arms.

            • Gezza

               /  18th April 2020

              No he doesn’t but if his inflammatory dog whistling 2nd Amendment rhetoric sparks a minor insurrection or violence by an individual or group of US gun nuts against agents of authority legitimately exercising powers in their state, he will carry responsibility for it.

      • Duker

         /  18th April 2020

        “gentle reminder that state power is not absolute when citizens bear arms”
        Which constitution says that
        The early mormons had a terrible time from state backed militia/vigilante groups before eventually trekking to isolated Utah

        Reply
  10. Tom Hunter

     /  18th April 2020

    Ho hum. More Trump bashing I see, and by the usual suspects who have been wrong on practically everything about the man over the last four years. The true test of intelligence is whether you learn anything from your mistakes.

    In any case you’d better have a read of this then:

    I sit in my small Brooklyn backyard as the day begins. For weeks the loudest sound has been the silence, quiet streets forming a backdrop for distant sirens and harbor boat horns. That is changing, the white noise of car traffic, like an ocean lapping on a beach has returned.

    On my “essential walks” which I take daily to the grocery or the bodega, I traverse an overpass above the Brooklyn Queens Expressway. For the past month traffic has been spare, an emergency vehicle here and there, not much more. That too has changed. While it has not returned to the soul crushing bumper-to-bumper standstill that makes the BQE infamous, the number of cars coursing to and from Staten Island has built up everyday.

    The people of New York themselves, and from accounts across the country in other places as well, have simply decided to loosen the guidelines for themselves.

    The lockdowns are breaking down – and that’s in NYC where the MSM shroud-waving has been the most focused. But it’s more than that:

    We tend to think of the idea of the government existing through the consent of the governed as being about elections, but it is about more than that, the successful lockdown of New York City was not enforced as much as it was consented to.

    And that consent is being removed by the people themselves, even as City and Police policies have not changed. What’s more Andrew Quomo, like Trump, knows that Americans have had enough.

    The state and local government in New York City can see what is happening They know the streets are filling back up.

    This phenomenon is something that New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo seems to understand. Cuomo was asked during one of his daily press conferences this week if he is worried that his steady stream of good news about the number of deaths stabilizing instead of increasing and the decrease in coronavirus cases and hospitalizations could give New Yorkers a false sense of security. His answer was basically that he has to tell citizens the truth or he loses his credibility.

    Furthermore, Cuomo has admitted on several occasions that with 19 million people living in the New York City metro area, he really is not capable of enforcing many lockdown and social distancing measures. As he puts it, “we can’t arrest 19 million people.”

    Reply
  11. Tom Hunter

     /  18th April 2020

    Oh – and the G7 just agreed with Trump on the terms of a review of WHO and their Chinese influence, with Japan sounding harsher about the whole situation than Trump, so it’s not just this pathetic soundbite of him trying to divert from his “mis-handling”.

    Take NYC, NJ and Michigan out of the stats and the rest of the US looks better than Germany, which is being held up as the gold standard for large nations with borders. It’s the same phenomenon as Madrid for Spain, Milan/Lombardy for Italy and so forth – not that the Trump bashers want to hear that fact.

    Reply
    • “the G7 just agreed with Trump on the terms of a review of WHO ”

      According to the White House perhaps: G7 seeks WHO review and reform, commits to coordinated virus response: White House

      Leaders from the G7 group of industrialized nations on Thursday called for a review and reform process at the World Health Organization and agreed to ensure a coordinated global approach to the coronavirus pandemic, the White House said.

      But: G7 backing for WHO leaves Trump isolated at virtual summit

      Donald Trump found himself isolated among western leaders at a virtual G7 summit, as they expressed strong support for the World Health Organization after the US’s suspension of its funding.

      Health officials around the world have condemned the US president’s decision to stop his country’s funding for the UN agency, amid a crisis that has left more than 2 million people infected and almost 140,000 dead.

      On Thursday, G7 leaders voiced their backing for the WHO and urged international co-operation. Immediately after the hour-long conference call, a spokesman for Angela Merkel said that the German chancellor had argued that “the pandemic can only be overcome with a strong and co-ordinated international response”. The spokesman said Merkel “expressed support for the WHO as well as a number of other partners”.

      The Canadian prime minister, Justin Trudeau, said: “There is a need for international coordination and the WHO is an important part of that collaboration and coordination. We recognise that there have been questions asked, but at the same time it is really important we stay coordinated as we move through this.”

      The Gates Foundation also announced an extra $150m (£120m) donation, in a move the WHO welcomed.

      G7 leaders chide Trump over WHO funding stop

      In veiled criticism, German Chancellor Angela Merkel on the call “emphasized that the pandemic can only be defeated with a strong and coordinated international response,” and “expressed her full support for the WHO and numerous other partners,” a spokesperson said.

      European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and European Council President Charles Michel said in a joint statement “that the G7 will have to lead the global efforts to build the post-‘COVID-19 crisis’ world,” which should be done “in strong cooperation with the existing international organizations and with multilateralism at the core of our action.”

      U.K. First Secretary Dominic Raab, who is currently deputizing for Boris Johnson while the prime minister recovers from COVID-19, said that “there absolutely needs to be a very, very deep dive, after the event” to review “the lessons, including of the outbreak of the virus.”

      You would expect there will be many reviews of how various governments and organisations have handled Covid-19 – that’s how you learn from events like this.

      However, he said that such a critical review should be done “with all of the international partners and indeed with the WHO,” adding, “The one thing the coronavirus has taught us is the value and the importance of international cooperation.”

      Throwing hissy fits, throwing round blame and withdrawing funding is more towards the worst way to deal with it and learn from it.

      Reply
      • Tom Hunter

         /  18th April 2020

        Oh please. The Guardian and Politico, like most MSM, have been hammering away at this whole Trump’s isolated theme for years now. And who do they pick as their reps this time? Merkel and Trudeau: two leaders who are barely holding it together in their own nations. Merkel’s not exactly flavour of the month with Italy and Spain on this issue and in fact the whole EU project has taken a hammering, given the way many of its members went nationalist fast on borders, multi-lateral assistance and the like. Which Euro leader will be selected next to sniff about Trump? Macron?

        The Guardian, like all good old-fashioned Leftists, has pushed the world unified angle for decades and as such almost reflexively defends the likes of the UN, WHO, etc. That’s just not a defendable position any longer. They must change.

        … and withdrawing funding is more towards the worst way to deal with it and learn from it.
        Better than continuing to subsidise failure and have requests for improvements simply dismissed, as they have been in both the UN and WHO. Withdrawing money will concentrate the mind wonderfully and as Japan and Taiwan show – and the latter was praised by Ursula von der Leyen – the problem is less WHO’s processes than it’s ass-kissing of China.

        Asking nicely hasn’t cut it to date.

        Reply
        • “Oh please. The Guardian and Politico”

          Oh please, don’t be so lazy and just dismiss something because of the source, while supporting reports that fit your views.

          If you disagree with something the Guardian reports then address the detail and provide an alternative source. Otherwise I’ll just say “Oh please. Tom Hunter”.

          If funds were withdrawn from every organisation that made mistakes then why not de-fund the White House? Why not de-fund everything? They all stuff things up. Might as well avoid stuff ups and have nothing.

          Reply
    • Duker

       /  18th April 2020

      Never believe Trump
      The G7 mini summit by teleconference ignored Trump and backed WHO
      “Donald Trump found himself isolated among western leaders at a virtual G7 summit, as they expressed strong support for the World Health Organization after the US’s suspension of its funding.”
      They are certainly critical of WHO but at this time arent kissing trumps ring
      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/16/g7-backing-for-who-leaves-trump-isolated-at-virtual-summit

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  18th April 2020

        The Guardian would say that, wouldn’t it?

        Reply
        • Duker

           /  18th April 2020

          And White House would say stuff that isnt true, and next day have another version

          Reply
    • Griff.

       /  19th April 2020

      Whatabout Germany eh
      Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent’s position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. It is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.

      The thread is about Trump and the drivel he comes out with

      like encouraging a bunch of known armed nutbars to defy states actions to limit this epidemic.

      Trumpisim is a cult and you are a member .

      Reply
  12. lurcher1948

     /  18th April 2020


    I want to break free, I’m so DAMN sick of street walking and the local dog park, I WANT TO GO TO QE2 regional park where the dogs run free after rabbits and pheasants and i look across the ocean towards Kapiti island,I’m 71 yo fit MANLY to you righties but im tired of hearing that a 99yo and an 89 yo kicked the bucket, so be it, i have been on White island ,at the top of Ngarahoe volcano in the Nile River cave system, MARRIED MY WIFE did i mention motor rallying dog agility(LOVE AND MISS DOG AGILITY,so if a 95 yu passes it is for the damn herd, PS cabin fever is hitting, must not watch “The shining”
    STILL LOVE PM Jacinda Ardern, mother of the country the leader for the moment, A LEADER

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  18th April 2020

      We’ll bring you out of the dark side into the light yet, Lurch. You’ll be voting for Soimon or Seymour before you know it. And then liberation! Dogs will run free again!

      Reply
    • But Lurch, it’s your adored Leader who won’t let you go out (YOU MUST STAY AT HOME !!!) because you’re over 70, and who has made it illegal to go to the local dog park because it’s an enclosed space. So if you go there, you could be in trouble with the police. Dog play areas were specified as places that people must not go to.

      Reply
    • Gezza

       /  18th April 2020

      Just whack the whole of that comment into an email to Jacinda & fire it off Lurch. She might grant you a dispensation or something.

      Reply

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