Anzac Day – #StandAtDawn

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60 Comments

  1. Gezza

     /  25th April 2020

    I’ve just come in from outside, where it’s overcast,with a cool breeze, because I was looking East from the kitchen for signs of dawnbreak when the unmistakable sound of reveille being played on the bugle sounded out into the dark from some houses nearby. Lovely gesture.

    There was a piper rehearsing somewhere nearby yesterday evening.

    Reply
  2. Griff.

     /  25th April 2020

    On the deck watching the sun tint the clouds with blood red…

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  25th April 2020

      Good on ya. I got a text from my widowed niece in Auckland yesterday evening, with a pic of her youngest daughter T (6) seated at the table making some big red poppies.

      My dad was a WW2 machine-gunner in North Africa & Italy. Invalided home from Monte Casino.

      She said T was learning about Anzac for home schooling today and asked if I had any photos of dad I could send T.

      I didn’t, so I emailed her …”something that I hope might be better?” She texted back straight away: “Really cool, is he a friend of yours?”. I replied “No. Gezza is me”.

      And I got back “Really cool !! She’s even more interested that it’s her uncle. M (her teenage brother) is having a look now!”

      And later I got a pxt of their fence, festooned with a dozen big, red, hand-made poppies.

      I feel really chuffed to have helped teach my grand-niece a little NZ history.

      This is what I sent her:
      https://streamable.com/f0ucwk

      Reply
      • lurcher1948

         /  25th April 2020

        My dad was in the ambulance corps in the western desert and Italy, Proud of my late dad

        Reply
        • My mother was far too young to be in the services, but she had some very chic aunts who were and hoped that the war would last long enough for her to join up and look like them in their uniforms (they had them tailormade; no mass produced army issue for them) They looked like the recruiting posters which made the uniform look elegant and glam.

          Reply
  3. Zedd

     /  25th April 2020

    Lest we forget..

    Reply
  4. Ray

     /  25th April 2020

    Pitch black here, someone somewhere is blowing the last post.
    Question; what is it with the 6 am thing for Anzac Day, the very first of NZers did go ashore till 10am , even my Australian relation wasn’t there till then though he was up Walkers Ridge with his machine gun crew reinforcing the Wellington Regiment later in the day. One whom was a great uncle.

    Reply
  5. Corky

     /  25th April 2020

    Thanks guys.

    Reply
  6. Blazer

     /  25th April 2020

    Remembering brave men sent to be slaughtered by the born to rule, in the War to end all Wars.

    Ask someone how/why WW1 started ..they will not know.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  25th April 2020

      Studied it. Form 6.

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  25th April 2020

        do tell as per the curriculum what 40 plus years ago.

        We studied the Maori wars too at college….turns out we studied…fiction.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  25th April 2020

          Any decent history book & Wikipedia will still give you the basics of how the conflict developed from various alliances between countries & competition between the powers so that when the Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated it triggered the first world-wide conflict.

          And there’s scores of other books & online material available that can put whatever different spin on the causes & concurrent events you want if you’ve a particular theory or fixation.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  25th April 2020

            Wiki….’Consensus on the origins of the war remains elusive since historians disagree on key factors, and place differing emphasis on a variety of factors. This is compounded by historical arguments changing over time, particularly as classified historical archives become available. ‘

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  25th April 2020

              Yes, I know. That’s the beauty of Wikipedia. You can constantly update your knowledge if you want to. Only those taking History, like me, studied it. The curriculum looked mainly at the political & diplomatic circumstances of the time & was linked to earlier study of the formation of Germany & Italy as nation states, also Napolean III & the concurrent defeats & decline of Austro-Hungarian Empire.

              It was my first year of taking History & was my top mark for UE in an otherwise rather poor Result Certificate. French was my next best.

              Too many years coming first in Religion & then becoming an atheist might’ve been the cause. God & I are still in dispute over that. It’s proving impossible to find an honest lawyer & I reckon The Bible is plagiarised & unreliable, with a fsir bit of fake news, so I had to take The Affirmation, which has pissed God off no end.

              He often doesn’t even turn up when required. My case may never be resolved in this lifetime.

            • Duker

               /  25th April 2020

              The Germans have been trying to revise the Consensus that they started it..ever since they surrendered and then tried to blame every one but the Army for the surrender…then it was the Treaty Of Versailles some how was a bad thing as they werent at fault and the war was fraught on Belgium and France and not Germany and Germany shouldnt pay for the ruined countryside.

        • Kimbo

           /  25th April 2020

          @ Blazer

          do tell as per the curriculum what 40 plus years ago.

          We studied the Maori wars too at college….turns out we studied…fiction.

          OK, I’ll bite.

          I did the then-7th form bursary History curriculum 37 years ago (Tudors and Stuarts in the first half of the year, NZ from approximately 1815-1873 in the second half) in a traditionally-modelled boys high school Both were excellent courses, incorporating worthwhile revisionism of the primary-received traditions, and I think even by that stage that included the “New Zealand (not Maori) Wars”.

          Re the second New Zealand conflagration that began in Taranaki in 1860-61, I clearly remember (and wrote in the end-of-year exam in which I got 77%, which, with scaling as it was for bursary, would have put me just out of the top 1%):

          Wiremu Kingi, the paramount rangitira of the Taranaki Atiawa was well within his rights as per Article 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi, in refusing to sell the disputed Waitara Block.

          Instead, the New Zealand Governeor of the time, Thomas Gore-Browne, under pressure from European settlers wanting farmland, recognised an illegal sale initiated by Teira, a lesser Atiawa chief with whom Kingi was in dispute, to crown agents, as per Article 3 of the ToW.

          Once the conflict started and a trouble-shooter was required to deal with the crisis, Gore-Browne was replaced by George Grey for his second term as Governor.

          Grey, with a cynical eye for the opportunity the crisis afforded, rather than putting an end to hostilities as soon as possible by steering a middle way of compromise, was more than willing to see the conflagration spread, especially to the Waikato, where Tainui, like Atiawa before them, were asserting their Treaty-rights as subject of the Crown to hold onto their land.

          Grey also did so by asserting that the recently-initiated Kingitanga was an act of treason, rather than, as we know today, an institution that could be incorporated under the rule of the British Crown.

          Two years later, Grey’s plan came to fruition when an army, supplied by Britain, marched down the constructed-for-the-purpose Great North Road to invade the Waikato.

          Anything else there you consider “fiction”, B? Or do you now want to change the subject to what was “taught” in our mutual era of some 40 years ago…to throw poo at the undoubted cynicism of the agents of the British Crown in New Zealand, c1859-67? I’m guessing that would be your best gambit given your bluff has been called.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  25th April 2020

            not sure what point you’re trying to make,apart from the fact that you excelled at history.
            Pretty sure James Belich with his book…NZ Land Wars?….provided a more balanced picture than that taught at schools at that time.

            Reply
            • Kimbo

               /  25th April 2020

              not sure what point you’re trying to make,apart from the fact that you excelled at history.

              Yes, I had a feeling I would get that exact response almost word for word, including the allegation I was doing some sort of eg-driven victory lap, .

              Tell you what, how about we let others decide “what point” I’m trying to make about your faulty memory (that’s a kinder phrase than “lies”) concerning the NZ college history curriculum of some 40 years ago?

            • Kimbo

               /  25th April 2020

              Belich published his book in 1986. I did bursary in…1983. And what I related re the origins of the Taranaki and Waikato phases of the 2nd NZ Wars goes back to at least Keith Sinclair…in the early 1960s.

            • Blazer

               /  25th April 2020

              as you have psychic powers ,could you make my next post …for me?cheers… 😉

            • Kimbo

               /  25th April 2020

              as you have psychic powers ,could you make my next post …for me?cheers…

              Can’t pick the precise topic but whatever it is, the template will be: Western heritage = invariably and unremittingly bad, incompetent and/or quasi-fascist”

              To which email address should I send my invoice?

          • Blazer

             /  25th April 2020

            Kimbo..
            ‘Five-part series The New Zealand Wars took a new look at the history of Māori vs Pākehā armed conflict. It was presented by historian James Belich, who with his arm-waving zeal proved a persuasive on-screen presence: “we don’t need to look overseas for our Robin Hood, our Genghis Khan, Joan of Arc, or Gandhi”. The popular series reframed NZ history, and its stories of Hōne Heke, Governor Grey, Tītokowaru, Te Whiti, Von Tempsky and Te Kooti, easily affirmed Belich’s conviction. The New Zealand Wars was judged Best Documentary at the 1998 Qantas Media Awards.

            Reply
            • Kimbo

               /  25th April 2020

              No, Belich, despite what you quote, did not take a “new” (as in entirely out of whole cloth) look at the NZ Wars. He packaged what was already the emergent consensus in the NZ history community….while rightly stressing to the wider NZ public (in a documentary series made 15 years after I studied bursary history, hence many of the events, personalities and interpretations he related were in no way unfamiliar)

              …that our history is in now way second-class, as if real stuff like “1066 and all that” happens elsewhere.

              Proof? I’ve told you what I was primarily taught, and related, and with which I scored very high marks in 1983…3 years before Belich made a name for himself with his book on the topic.

            • Blazer

               /  25th April 2020

              @Kimbo….interesting,so when did your book get published and what was it called?

            • Kimbo

               /  25th April 2020

              It’s titled:

              “1983 was before 1986 and 1998”

              And it’s available in all good booksellers. So to be clear for every one on Your NZ, you failed maths as well as history? And given those insipid returns you are serving up, I’m guessing you were last pick for the school tennis team?

            • Blazer

               /  25th April 2020

              ‘I did the then-7th form bursary History curriculum 37 years ago ‘
              ‘ I did bursary in…1983.’
              ‘ I’ve told you what I was primarily taught, and related, and with which I scored very high marks in 1983…3 years before Belich ‘
              ‘ I’m guessing’

              Its not all about you Kimbo.- relax.

            • Kimbo

               /  25th April 2020

              “Its not all about you Kimbo.- relax.”

              It never was. Instead, it was about falsifying the assertion and invitation you made. Here, let me remind you of it, with emphasis because I realise we are dealing with a remedial situation:

              do tell as per the curriculum what 40 plus years ago.
              We studied
              the Maori wars too at college….turns out we studied…fiction.

              So which is it to be when classifying that assertion of yours?

              “Hopelessly mistaken due to ideological bias to the point of blindness”

              …or

              “Lies”?

            • Blazer

               /  25th April 2020

              here’s some food for thought….’the victors write history’….and I have not mentioned the reference books that we used at College.
              Your experience is your own.I realise it may be your pet subject.
              The way you dismiss Belich’s work speaks volumes.
              Try the BDF…instead of thread fucking an ANZAC topic.

            • Kimbo

               /  25th April 2020

              Love it.

              You hijack the thread with an off topic comparison and later blame me for threadjacking

              …for which you invited a response

              …you get one that falsifies your assertion

              …which causes you to throw your toys out of the cot

              …and attempt to deflect this is not all about me (indeed, instead it’s about your false statements)

              …you then appeal to a truism “the victors write history” (as too do the revisionists, btw) as your primary source

              …you falsely assert I “dismiss” Belich (to the contrary, all I’ve done is, while agreeing with his general views, pointed out they were widely disseminated in the NZ education system including at secondary school some years before he published his 1986 tome)

              …then tell me that my views belong on a site run by Cameron Slater…when I’ve related that the second NZ Wars were primarily provoked by European politicians and settlers in defiance of the Treaty of Waitangi?! Yeah, that’d go down a charm at the BFD 😂

              Mind you, you have proved one of Slater’s maxims, “never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig loves it”.

              Happy ANZAC Day. Good to know brave men and women sacrificed for our freedom of thought and speech, including your right to try and propagate falsehood. And that of others to call you out for it.

          • Kimbo

             /  25th April 2020

            There you go Blazer, you could have called my bluff if you really knew what you were talking about: Cameron built the Great South Road to invade the Waikato, not the Great North Road.

            Reply
        • Conspiratoor

           /  25th April 2020

          Yes B, fiction starts with the term ‘Maori Wars’. Studied it. Form 1.

          Our teacher Miss Campbell (years ahead of her time) insisted on the term ‘Land Wars’ and woe betide anyone who failed to grasp the significance. Growing up in Auckland on the good side of the harbour, the name Miss Campbell would be remembered as both feared and respected in equal measure by many of us of the same vintage

          Reply
      • Corky

         /  25th April 2020

        I’m surprised you didn’t berate Blazer for polticing on a thread of remembrance, Gezza?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  25th April 2020

          Why? SOP for Blazer.

          And did you mean poulticing (he seems a bit iffy, might have a boil maybe ?) or politicking, Corks? Just to clear up any confusion.

          Have you mentioned Muslims yet? The Turkish troops were mostly Muslims. And they won.

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  25th April 2020

            I meant politicking.

            ”Have you mentioned Muslims yet? The Turkish troops were mostly Muslims. And they won.”

            No, I haven’t mentioned Muslims. I do believe they did win. And I also believe we have not officially apologised to Turkey for our transgressions.

            You could have mentioned that this is what our troops died for… giving Blazer the right to be free and to express any view he wants without fear of harm.
            And you would have been right.

            My view is that politics on a thread like this is inappropriate.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  25th April 2020

              You could have mentioned that this is what our troops died for… giving Blazer the right to be free and to express any view he wants without fear of harm. And you would have been right.

              Have you looked into how the British & NZ governments & military treated the conscientious objectors of the time, Corks? That is why I wouldn’t mention that.

            • Duker

               /  25th April 2020

              “You could have mentioned that this is what our troops died for… giving Blazer the right to be free and to express any view he wants without fear of harm.”
              Preposterous … shutting people up wasnt one of the German war aims, and UK clearly ONLY went to war for Belgiums neutrality and Britain’s access to continental channel ports. One of the reasons Belgium was carved out of the Netherlands in the first place, stiffing the Dutch by stealing their territory and leaving the coastal dutch speaking Flanders stuck in what as , until recently a country controlled by its French speakers

            • Corky

               /  25th April 2020

              @Gezza.

              ”Have you looked into how the British & NZ governments & military treated the conscientious objectors of the time, Corks? That is why I wouldn’t mention that.”

              I think the times, context and our democracy need to be considered.

              Obviously, if we had lost the war (especially WW2) our freedoms we take for granted would probably have stopped as we would have been occupied. How we treated conscientious objectors is a moot point in my opinion. The times were hard…army discipline and societal expectations, harder. A country on war footing, as we are about to find out in a similar vain, tightens up and we lose some rights. I, for example, have at present lost the right of free social intercourse.

              Btw..conscientious objectors/ deserters were treated terribly. From executions, to jail, to public hate and ridicule.

              It is what it is. I for example don’t mention the unions who went on strike during war time..while their fellow country men were dying overs

              https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/jun/05/women-victims-d-day-landings-second-world-war

            • Blazer

               /  25th April 2020

              Flemish.

            • Well, yes, Flemish was spoken when I lived in Flanders, and still is to the best of my knowledge.

            • Duker

               /  25th April 2020

              Flemish is just a spoken Dutch dialect
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish
              The written form is in Dutch

            • Blazer

               /  25th April 2020

              too sensitive there D…’ leaving the coastal dutch speaking Flanders ‘.

            • Duker

               /  25th April 2020

              The French speaking part of Belgium also speaks Walloon an older french dialect, but French is the standard language .
              Its just a fact that its Dutch and French, and the Belgies fight like cats and dogs over it.
              Another interesting language tibbet was the Voralberg region of Austria at the end of WW1 wanted to join neighbouring Switzerland as their regional dialect Alemannic was very similar to Swiss German rather than Austro-Bavarian German.

              As an aside the allies should have split the Southern Germans , mostly catholic and speaking a similar German into union with Austria. The Hapsburgs always wanted Bavaria anyway , and it would have have made a lot of sense to have the Wittelsbachs in Munich remain as a monarchy over the Wurtemburg, Bavaria and Austria and the other bits and pieces around them including say Sudentland and maybe Bohemia.
              Thats would have left the Protestant Northern Germans/Prussians , much more left wing and not really as much a threat to Poland and France.

            • We were advised not to speak French in the Walloon area because they’d think we were Flemish and be hostile. It was true, too. That Gallic blank stare and shrug would greet ‘Ou est la gare, s’il vous plait ?’ which would be all but impossible to pronounce wrongly, and I knew that I wasn’t doing so. It’s obvious when someone is being bloody awkward and pretending not to understand. Ciel ! c’etait bien ennuyeux !

            • Duker

               /  25th April 2020

              “A factor in the Belgian Revolution of the 1830s was the rising dominance of the Dutch language in the southern provinces of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.[1] A conflict arose between the citizenry of the Flemish provinces who wished to engage with the authorities in Dutch, and the largely francophone aristocracy of the southern provinces which became modern-day Belgium.

              While the Belgian Constitution guaranteed “freedom of language”, in practice the authorities, including government institutions such as the courts, were dominated by the French-speaking upper classes, and operated in French.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_legislation_in_Belgium
              I think we are settled here

        • Blazer

           /  25th April 2020

          its good to remember political folly and hope it never happens again…the cost is too high.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  25th April 2020

            And yet it does, over and over again, everywhere. The Human ape is a very dangerous one.

            Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  25th April 2020

            We are watching it now. It is driven by fear, now and always. Fearful people are easily manipulated, Kiwis like all others. Hence they shut their eyes to obvious stupidity like the lockdown rules.

            Reply
      • The local schools get right in behind it and seem to know a fair amount.

        Reply
  7. NOEL

     /  25th April 2020

    Initially stood at the end of the drive. Then decided to walk 100 metres to the reserve to catch the sun.
    Around ten others with the same idea.
    Siren sounded briefly then Last Post, Ode and National Anthem from somewhere.
    No one left for some time,
    In the stillness I believe this year was one I reflected far longer on my service and those who have gone,
    Must have been the isolation from formality.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  25th April 2020

      Nice comment. I waved to others at their gates, then walked to our war memorial to join a few other couples standing there, 2m apart. When they left I sat alone on one of the benches there, facing the WW2 plaque, & talked to the corporal, my late dad. You’re right. Somehow it seemed a more genuinely personally reflective time than the organised others.

      Reply
      • My most moving experience was in Flanders, at Ypres, one Armistice Day. Vader Ignace was doing the sermon, and the weather turned so ferocious (driving snow and sleet) hat we kept losing our way and having to crawl. They thought that we had been unable to come when I ran in just as the Padre was making the announcement.

        It had eased a bit when we came out so we went to the bridge where all the names are, every pillar covered with them, untold Anzacs. There were several who’d joined up underage and with false names. John Smith (enlisted as Fred Brown) aged 14. Yes, 14. There may even have been one aged 13, but I can’t swear to that.

        It was still bitterly cold and snow was falling, the wind was blowing the wreaths around. I kept thinking that the soldiers had been fighting in that sort of weather. Unimaginable.

        Reply
  8. Corky

     /  25th April 2020

    My walk this morning didn’t turn into a walk..more like a browse. A small side street I walked down had NZ flags flying, and some people had put out displays of medals ,photos and articles for folk to see. Really cool. But a little too sad for me. I moved on after a couple of browses.

    Reply

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