Open Forum Sunday

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69 Comments

  1. David

     /  28th June 2020

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/real-estate/300041329/whats-really-going-to-happen-with-new-zealands-house-prices

    There is a competition to predict the biggest fall in house prices and every economist is wrong except the one who said they didnt know. The market is very bouyant, it was flat going into Covid but it has come out with a hiss and a roar, anecdotally I have a friend who on his first open home for a stock standard brick and tile had 33 groups through, had multiple offers and got his top price. Agents I deal with are exceptionally happy.
    I dont think there will be a recession and certainly in Canterbury prices will rise. As they say economists have predicted 11 of the last 3 recessions.

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  28th June 2020

      See how you feel this time next year David.

      Re house prices you are right in a way….the West has tried to mask inflation and expansion of the money supply with low interest rates and the resultant irrational house prices.

      They now have to defend this position with every mechanism available to them to maintain consumer confidence.

      Any retraction in spending and a decrease in equity ,coupled with increasing unemployment spells big pain on…..voters.

      Whoever wins the coming election has a mammoth task on their hands.

      When the RB of Australia considers a veto on negative stories re property in the MSM and contemplates a ‘pause’ in all established housing transactions ,you know just how dire the situation has become.

      Don’t blame the banking cartel,blame…COVID19.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  28th June 2020

        The building component of house prices is irrational only because of the lunatic bureaucracy that inflates it with an army of paper pushers adding useless costs.

        The land component is inflated by equally useless planning constraints and another army of paper pushers to feed.

        Combined, it is simply impossible to build cheap housing and the cost of new houses inflates the cost of all.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  28th June 2020

          that hobby horse of yours is a factor but NOT the main factor.
          The RMA goes back to 1991…and the rampant increase in property prices does not corelate to its introduction.

          It does reflect money expansion however.

          Property as a preferred investment class feeds the whole non productive FIRE service economy at the expense of the productive sector.

          Since the 80’s the unleashing of the so called ‘market’ economy has destroyed manufacturing and lead to de regulation and the ludicrous paper shuffling of financial ‘products’ that result in the clusterfuck in your face …today.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  28th June 2020

            The increase in property prices correlates with the 2004 Building Act and the Clark Government’s anti-business, pro-centralisation and control-freakery stances.

            Reply
  2. artcroft

     /  28th June 2020

    I enjoyed this. Interesting follow up question: Is covid a witch.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  28th June 2020

      Very interesting. Although I wouldn’t have used witch as an analogy. They are a dime a dozen…and real too. I would have used ‘White Lives Matter.”

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  28th June 2020

        If you actually watched that, it seems to have gone right over your head. White Lives Matter is a witch.

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  28th June 2020

          Witch = Real.
          WLM/BLM = Witch.

          Read my comment.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  28th June 2020

            Witch = Salem.
            The “witches” of Salem weren’t witches.

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  28th June 2020

              Salem was not mentioned in the experiment. The narrator mentions it later, if I remember correctly. If the teacher had said ‘Salem witch’, I wouldn’t have commented. He also says around the 4minute mark that there aren’t that many witches. That’s untrue, it’s a major (quiet) religion, even in Gerald Gardners time. This is not to say what is narrated is wrong in the sense explained. It’s just I think there were better examples than witch.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              Fair enuf. I see your point now.

  3. Gezza

     /  28th June 2020

    From yesterday – Corky

    I’m not racist. Im a realist. You either commit a crime ..or you don’t. Why is open to debate.

    @ Gezza

    ”Above you make the assertion that Maori are vicious and nasty. Maybe that describes all the one you know, or maybe it’s just bs. But that doesn’t describe most Maori I know, so such a generalisation is obviously simply inaccurate. And racist.”

    Nonsense. You claim to watch One News on a fairly regular basis. If that is true, you are being dishonest with yourself.

    My grandfather was a tally clerk on the Mt Maunganui wharf. He had a little buggy, similar to a modern scooter, except with a roof. Sometimes I would go with for an hour or two. We went all over the wharf. In that time I only saw one Maori, and he was in charge of the rail that came into the port. So, if there was pilfering, I doubt Maori were involved. Again, that is profiling based on facts.

    Of course, when I talk about profiling, I’m assuming because someone is European and doesn’t fit the profile, he isn’t questioned or considered above suspicion.

    Let’s break that one down.

    I’m not racist. Im a realist. You either commit a crime ..or you don’t. Why is open to debate.

    You’re a racist. Self-defining yourself as a realist (which can be used to describe a personal view on all manner of things), even if I concede you that for the point of this argument, doesn’t mean you can’t also be a racist. I’m a realist too, and the reality is – you’re a racist.

    @ Gezza

    ”Above you make the assertion that Maori are vicious and nasty. Maybe that describes all the one[s] you know, or maybe it’s just bs. But that doesn’t describe most Maori I know, so such a generalisation is obviously simply inaccurate. And racist.”

    Nonsense. You claim to watch One News on a fairly regular basis. If that is true, you are being dishonest with yourself.

    Yes I do, though not always, and often not all the way through. If that’s supposed to imply that somehow what one sees on 1News proves that all Maori are vicious & nasty, it simply doesn’t. It just as frequently shows Maori who are clearly not vicious & nasty. It did last night.

    I also read the online news in Stuff & the Herald. Clearly there are many stories which show Maori offenders. As far as I can see the majority of those offenders we see seem to have gang affiliations or connections – and that often extends to extended whanau. Whanaugatanga introduces another element into the mix, but the great majority of Maori are not offenders & the fact that some mouthy Maori activists also get verbally abusive towards police & Pakehas doesn’t prove all Maori feel & behave that way.

    There are also stories about other offenders & folk who are abusive towards police who are not Maori, & not necessarily “ferals” either. I assume you miss those. Listen to the audio clip in this article:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12343130

    Not a Maori voice among them. Those are Pakehas.

    My grandfather was a tally clerk on the Mt Maunganui wharf. He had a little buggy, similar to a modern scooter, except with a roof. Sometimes I would go with for an hour or two. We went all over the wharf. In that time I only saw one Maori, and he was in charge of the rail that came into the port. So, if there was pilfering, I doubt Maori were involved. Again, that is profiling based on facts.

    That’s not even profiling.

    Of course, when I talk about profiling, I’m assuming because someone is European and doesn’t fit the profile, he isn’t questioned or considered above suspicion.

    Not even clear what you mean there.

    But let’s get back to your
    Nonsense.

    It’s not nonsense. It’s fact. You’re racist. Calling, & believing, that an entire ethnic group – Maori – are “vicious & nasty” is the epitome of racism. It’s exactly what the Nazis did with Jews. And having vilified, ghettoised, stolen their businesses, income, & posessions, & impoverished them, they then argued that the misery & squalor they then lived in proved they were inferior & nasty.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  28th June 2020

      Why did you consider the debate needed to be put on todays thread? I’ll get back to you when I can.

      Reply
    • The Germans then, of course, murdered as many Jews as they could because, as we are untermenschen, Jews don’t deserve to live.

      By the law of averages, some Maori wharfies must have done some of the theft which was rife and almost seen as a perk of the job. But that would be because they were wharfies, not because they were Maori. The Pakeha ones didn’t do it because they were Pakeha.

      Corky also, if I remember rightly, said that black people were vicious and nasty. He has also classed Pasifika people as feral by definition and not thinking in the same way as white people; needless to say that this is a bad way of thinking.

      Reply
      • For the literal minded PDTs; the Pakeha thieves did it because they were thieves. They didn’t NOT do it because they were Pakehas. They were thieves who happened to be Pakeha.

        Reply
      • Blazer

         /  29th June 2020

        Not all Germans had/have the same point of view.

        The Nazis were the Nazis ,just as Zionists are…Zionists.

        Reply
  4. Gezza

     /  28th June 2020

    Because

    1. it was all at the right hand side & would go on too far down the page there
    2. because it would eventually get buried in Saturday’s forum by discussion on other current topics
    3. because you make it topical by continually banging on about it, & introduce diversions, so I’m keeping those matters I’m arguing current here.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  28th June 2020

      Wrong place. Reposted above.

      Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  28th June 2020

      This is a pointless argument. When I meet someone I try to get a handle on what their culture is because I know that will influence their values and conduct and hence how I can expect them to treat me. That is normal. I also use their race and appearance as a clue to their likely culture but I realise it is only a possibility, not a confirmation until I have more information. That is also normal. Once I know their culture then I also have to find out their version of it as well as their personality and skills and interests. Then I start to know and understand the person.

      You can short circuit the process at any stage subject to your own experiences and shortcomings or simply impatience or lack of interest. Unfortunately that is normal too.

      And it is even easier to call racist whenever the individuals involved differ in that attribute. But we all use the same process to evaluate each other.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  28th June 2020

        Do you believe all Maori are vicious and nasty?

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  28th June 2020

          Silly question. Do you believe Corky thinks that?

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  28th June 2020

            It’s not a silly question. It’s a relevant question.You’ve pontificated on above in such a circuitous manner you’ve lost the plot.

            Do I think Corky thinks that? Silly question. Corky SAYS he does.
            https://yournz.org/2020/06/27/open-forum-saturday-252/#comment-428825

            And he doesn’t just say it there. He frequently comments along those exact same lines.

            I have no reason to disbelieve that he thinks Maori are all vicious & nasty.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              B.s. I set out clearly my process which plainly invalidates your silly question.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              No it doesn’t. That’s your description of what you do & your presumption that must be what Corky does.

              Are calling Corky a liar, or saying that he means something other than what he plainly says?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              Corky doesn’t say that in the link you posted. He is saying Maori are most likely to have those characteristics but not that all Maori have them. You are deliberately misrepresenting him.

        • It would be absurd to say that none are. We have all met some who are both of these things, just as we all know Pakehas who are.

          As Corky claims to be half-Maori and have endless numbers of rellies who are trotted out to give verisimilitude to his stories, he must be attributing the vile things that he says about Maoris to himself and the whanau. He can’t have it both ways.

          It was bizarre when he claimed that I had called the Pakeha (one English) couple across the road ‘feral Maori’ when both have professions and are neither the overworked ‘feral’ or Maori…and whom I had never mentioned on YNZ, having no reason to do so.

          Reply
  5. Gezza

     /  28th June 2020

    I am not misrepresenting him, deliberately or otherwise.

    “Corky  /  27th June 2020
    Does it ever cross your mind why police in America have it in for blacks, after taking halfwits ( like the above) and pure racists out of the equation?
    Does it ever cross your mind why cops in New Zealand have it in for Maoris?

    Corky  /  27th June 2020
The reason is because cops who deal with black folk or Maori on the streets, soon learn, especially in the case of Maori, what nasty vicious people they are.



”

    All the rest of his comments about why police should “profile” Maori are driven by that stated belief. There’s no qualification of that belief in his comments about profiling.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  28th June 2020

      You are claiming profiling assumes certainty rather than likelihood. It doesn’t.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  28th June 2020

        I have made no such claim.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  28th June 2020

          Neither has Corky.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  28th June 2020

            I never said he did. That’s not what my argument with his statement on profiling is about.

            Reply
          • Corky certainly gives this impression; he is in favour of racial profiling, hopes that the police do it and has made many derogatory generalisations about people with brown/black skin being vicious criminals who don’t think like us (us Pakehas)

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              On whether Maori think like Pakehas, for some things they do, & for other things, generally speaking, they don’t. We are all human apes.

              But it depends how predominantly European or Maori their perspective is, and on what subject. Pakeha in New Zealand are not generally as strongly & vividly tribally connected to their ancestors, their extended family, their marae, turangawaewae & tribes. Those in are mostly our are long distant past; far away distant in time and location.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              Oh Gawd! Proof-reading fail.

              Those are mostly in our long distant past; far away in time and location.

            • He meant it in a criminal, vicious sense, as I remember it, not things like whanau.

    • Gezza

       /  28th June 2020

      And here’s an idea, Al. Why don’t you let Corky speak for himself?

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  28th June 2020

        Happy to. However I am drawing on what he has already said and interpreting it in a reasonable and rational manner which is what you usually do but seem to have a bee in your bonnet over this.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  28th June 2020

          You are interpreting it to fit your preferred viewpoint. I am simply quoting what he said, & disputing what he said because it’s a gross generalisation, plainly untrue As such, & pointing out that when he says that Maori are vicious & nasty it fits the classic definition of racism.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  28th June 2020

            Depends whether you choose to inert the implied “some” or not.

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  28th June 2020

            Depends whether Corky wants to make that correction himself. He implies no such thing.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              That is merely your inference.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              No, that he implies “some” Maori are vicious and nasty – when he knows English, knows that word, writes well, could use it, and doesn’t use it – is YOUR inference.

              If you want to rewrite what you think he should have said, or write what you think he meant, feel free to do so, but if you think his English is so poor he needs you to reinterpret what he plainly writes – how is that letting him speak for himself?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              It’s clearly ambiguous so long as the words “some” and “all” are omitted. You are choosing to claim he stated the latter and I am saying he hasn’t said that.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              I am quoting what he said. There is no qualification in what he said. Nor in any of his remarks about profiling Maori.

              You are reinterpreting what he said. Let him speak for himself.

              Corky states that Maori are vicious and nasty. If he wishes to qualify that statement he is perfectly capable of doing so.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              If I say Maori are great at sport, dancing and music no-one thinks or even pretends to think I mean all Maori. It is accepted as a statistical probability.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              No it’s not. Not by everybody.

              But that’s a squirrel. Stop trying to interpret Corky’s words to mean something different to what he says.

              Corky is quite clear below that he means what he says & has no intention of qualifying what he said in the context you are trying to reword his statement.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              No he isn’t.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              Yes he is. That’s why he hasn’t.
              That’s why he thanks you for “trying” to see his point of view.
              And thanks me for a “counter argument”.

              He stands by what he says he believes & he states, quite unequvocally, that Maori are vicious and nasty. No some. No, in some circumstances. All the rest is you attempting to restate what he means.

              But he doesn’t agree with your restatement. He sticks with what he said because against any contrary evidence that is his belief.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              As I said at the start, and Corky obviously agrees, this is a pointless argument for the reasons I have given.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              All you have done is waste no end of space today saying that when Corky says Maori are vicious and nasty he means some Maori are vicious and nasty.

              But he doesn’t. Or he would have said so. And he hasn’t.

              The guy’s not illiterate, nor does he need you to endlessly go on and on about what he really means. That’s your obsession.

              I’m not wasting any more time or energy arguing with you over what you think he actually means. Too ridiculous.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              I don’t know why you started.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              Clearly.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              At least I know what I don’t know.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              You don’t seem to know what a counter-argument is. Corky does.
              https://yournz.org/2020/06/28/open-forum-sunday-245/#comment-429087
              That’s why I prefer to let him speak for himself.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  28th June 2020

              And that’s why he prefers not to speak to you.

            • Gezza

               /  28th June 2020

              He did. Where I showed you. Give it up.
              1. You’re not a mind reader
              2. Corky hasn’t appointed you his spokesperson.
              3. Corky’s never shy about correcting me if I am getting what he says wrong.

  6. lurcher1948

     /  28th June 2020

    Ms Collins said,and claimed Sir John Key threw her under a bus, the poor bus owner never was able to repair the bus suspension after the large bump on the road and it was wreaked

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  28th June 2020

      You can be a nasty piece of work, Lurchy. I put that down to the spring that’s sticking through the seat on your scooter.

      Reply
  7. Corky

     /  28th June 2020

    Guys, no more arguing. I will just say we are never going to agree on this issue..and its various sub-starnds. Alan, thanks for trying to see things from my point of view. Gezza, thanks for offering a counter argument most people would think is reasonable.

    People are free to read and judge from their point of view. The debate starts here:

    https://yournz.org/2020/06/27/open-forum-saturday-252/

    It’s interesting how the debate starts…and why.

    Reply
  8. lurcher1948

     /  28th June 2020

    God at the risk of upsetting a RIGHTY, i used to say the freight trains were long coming into Wellington,the capital WERE ALL THE BRIGHT SMART PEOPLE LIVE and then my normal average white female said”do you want long”here is long

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  28th June 2020

      It might be long but it’s blimmin slow, Lurch. It exceeded my video tolerance time even before it arrived.

      Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  28th June 2020

      Hate to break it to you, Lurch, but the Crusaders won and the Hurricanes lost. Again.

      Reply
  9. Alan Wilkinson

     /  28th June 2020

    Looks like the Harmful Digital Communications Act might need a few more teeth or better enforcement:
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12342442

    Reply
  10. duperez

     /  28th June 2020

    Herald with a massive surprise headline: ‘Scott Guy murder never forgotten by parents ten years on.’

    Their son was murdered and his parents haven’t forgotten. Who would have thought.

    Reply

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