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31 Comments

  1. lurcher1948

     /  30th June 2020

    Hint to Todd Muller,check the people sitting behind you in parliament.At times it looks like an old white bauld headed convention,those glistening domes are hard on the eyes.

    Reply
  2. NOEL

     /  30th June 2020

    Paula Bennett and Ann Tolley going.
    Gee their diversity ratios will be less than politicians demands of the Public Service.

    Reply
  3. Griff.

     /  30th June 2020

    Canterbury Museum has no plans to cover or remove an exhibit that for 28 years has misrepresented Māori as “cave men”, before it can be replaced in a proposed building upgrade.

    I see some Maori working stones no cave included.
    Our batch at langs is built on a stone working area. I can not dig down more than 100mm without hitting the broken shards of stone working. I have found hammer stones with the greasy sweat marks of use still visible along with an adze and other worked tools. I know of other stone working sites where artifacts can be easily found if you know what you are looking at.
    The diorama is very true to life. Maori had no metal or pottery they were living in the stone age . Stone working would have been a major pastime of any tribe .
    Why deny our understanding of Maori life pre contact based on overwhelming verifiable archaeological evidence?

    Reply
      • My mother and stepfather found a rather odd stone on a beach that looked as if it had been shaped with a tool. It became known as ‘the ancient Maori artefact’. Some time later they showed it to someone who knew about these things…and it really was one !!! I forget how old it was, or what it had been going to be, but it is now in a museum.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  30th June 2020

          which museum?

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  30th June 2020

            Sounds far fetched to me.

            Reply
            • The Wanganui Museum and it was found at Kai Iwi beach. It’s shaped like a 3d L shape. It can be seen in the Museum with their names on it.

              No doubt the truth does sound far-fetched to Corky, it’s unfamiliar to him.

            • The fact that a story is plain and unadorned with extraneous detail means that it is likely to be true than one that has an enormous amount of detail added in the hope that this will give verisimilitude. If I was going to invent an artefact, I’d make it a far more exciting one than this.

              I pity you, Blazer; you have to sneer at and put down so many things. This is usually a sign of feelings of inadequacy. Putting other people down doesn’t make you look superior, it just makes you look mean-spirited.

    • Gezza

       /  30th June 2020

      Yes, I read that. Also just read the 1897 Royal Society Address paper by Capt Hutton. Shows an excellent knowledge of stone geology & stone tool-making, informed by erudite dispassionate scholarship, observation, & interview of Maori.

      Instead of the largely incorrect euphemism “cave men” (in the case of Maori) he (briefly) compares Maori stone tool making to “neolithic Europeans”. The record of his address indicates the dioramas are probably reasonably accurate. Indeed, they may even have been drawn from scholarly papers such as his.

      Maori had a stone age technology. As I haven’t seen these dioaramas I’m not sure exactly what it is that is causing disputes. I had the impression it was because they depicted Maori as living in caves. But even that paper records that the author is describing the tool-making of South Island Maori.

      Reply
      • People live in caves now; nature’s housing, free, weatherproof and no permits or red tape needed. I have seen cave houses that I would be glad to live in.

        It can’t be denied that the Maori hadn’t discovered the wheel or writing by the c.18, which is astonishing.

        Rewriting history is inexcusable.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  30th June 2020

          It’s not particularly astonishing Maori hadn’t discovered the wheel or writing by c.18. Huge tracts of Africa & Aboriginal Australia & America & numerous island cultures hadn’t either. Cultures which had were usually building on centuries of interrelationships & copying or improvements of developments of other cultures which had. This was particularly so with Europeans. Maori quickly embraced & utilised European technology & writing once exposed to it.

          Reply
          • The wheel is hardly high-tech ! And most cultures have had some form of written communication for thousands of years,

            We keep hearing about the evils of colonisation, but I don’t hear of any Maori wanting to live as they did before the Pakeha came. Their lifespan then was very short, much shorter than now or than the then European equivalent.

            Reply
            • Griff.

               /  30th June 2020

              I am proudly welsh .
              Feel free to link to any actual evidence of written language in the UK before Romans invaded. So few examples are known that a written brttonic language is merely conjecture. I would not rule out we may have had some contact with Greek writing pre 55 B.C Romes invasion . Written language wide spread and widely known in the Uk pre Romans has no evidence .
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Brittonic

            • Gezza

               /  30th June 2020

              The wheel is hardly high-tech ! And most cultures have had some form of written communication for thousands of years

              I don’t think you understand reference to technology. Cultures which developed the wheel had by then developed rudimentary metal technology & thus had sophisticated enuf shaping materials to work, bore, & fasten wooden wheel shapes.

              Although wheeled vehicles were first invented in Mesopotamia or on the steppes of eastern Europe and central Asia in around 3500 BC and were introduced into much of northern Europe over the subsequent three or four centuries, there is no evidence of the new technology being used in Britain until some 18 centuries later.

              The neolithic Brits must have actually been rather stupid, by your reasoning.

              Griff has shown above how incapable they were of developing their own written language until other superior cultures showed them how.

              Maori arrived in NZ from polynesia roughly 800 years ago. Within a few short years of encountering Europeans they were not only utilising the wheel they were utilising metal tools, weapons and other tools & all other improvements of Western technology.

              There are examples of letters written by Maori, in Maori, in the museum at Russell, so they picked up writing very quickly too. Also at Russel you can tour & even use for yourself the rudimentary but for the time sophisticated printing press that was used to produce massive numbers of books & publications in Maori.

              After only 800 years as a culture Maori picked up writing far faster than those thick poms.

            • Gezza

               /  30th June 2020

              You are also conveniently overlooking that in most cultures which had developed written scripts they could be read & understood by a very select & elite few, often those sepecially educated in royal households or government services – as in China, for example. Or religious scholars, using languages other than their own. The common people were often illiterate for millenia. Scribes had to be paid.

            • I said most cultures, not English. Nor did I say that anyone was stupid. But when the wheel was such a widespread thing, as was writing, it would be absurd to claim that any culture without these basic items by the late c.18 was highly developed. They aren’t exactly high tech.

              Look at 18th century European houses; they even had indoor plumbing and had had it (albeit for rich people) for a long time. The Hanging Loos of Bath are still there in many cases (the inside loos were hastily transferred to the outsides of the houses, where they hang attached after a very cold winter even by Bath standards; the pipes froze and when they burst…well, you can imagine what happened)

              Irish writing goes back almost 2000 years; I don’t know when Chinese and other Asian languages had it. The Irish have sayings about how they were saints, scholars and storytellers when the English were running round on all fours (or painting themselves blue) and eating each other and if the Irish hadn’t civilised them they’d still be doing it.

            • Gezza

               /  30th June 2020

              The Irish are noted for their blarney. They would of course say such things as they were conquered & ruled over by the more highly developed & better militarily equipped British for quite some time.

              The wheel was NOT widespread in neolithic cultures. It was non-existent in neolithic cultures. Writing & various types of technology originated in different places but especially with the case of technology did not develop alone. There is a massive amount of archeological evidence that shows through war, conquest, trade, & exploration technologies evolved over time as tech transfer & improvements occurred.

              That is the product of many factors, including the discoveries of exceptional individuals in different societies which were copied by others & added to their existing technological arrays.

              One also needed to have access to raw materials, like copper, tin, iron to go from the copper age to the bronze age to the iron age, either through initial discovery in one’s own backyard, trade or through copying techniques seen elsewhere.

              Pacific Island cultures lacked the means & resources to easily travel overland or on short sea voyages learning this stuff from each other as Asians, Europeans, Eurasians, & Mesopotamians all did.

            • Gezza

               /  30th June 2020

              I said most cultures, not English. Nor did I say that anyone was stupid. But when the wheel was such a widespread thing, as was writing, it would be absurd to claim that any culture without these basic items by the late c.18 was highly developed. They aren’t exactly high tech.

              You said it was astonishing Maori had not invented these things. What inference can be drawn from such a remark? You further say it would be absurd to claim that any culture without these basic items items by the late c.18 was highly developed. That they aren’t exactly high tech.

              I have explained to you why & how these things developed & spread among different cultures. The Japanese never invented writing. They copied & simplified Chinese characters to render their own language into writing. The development of written scripts by different civilisations took a long time & did not develop during their neolitihic times.

              Maori had not the numbers nor the means nor the time nor the advanced sea travel to develop & build upon metal technology but it is I believe pretty widely accepted that they had refined neoloithic stone & wood working techniques to a comparatively high degree of sophistication compared to some other neolithic peoples.

              They had no means of discovering & developing grain agriculture & spreading those techniques to other lands either. But they had developed horticulrural methods of growing & storing polynesian foodstuffs beyond their normal natural ranges. They had also developed sophisticated means of preparing foods that could be poisonous or inedible in their raw state that made them safe to eat (if not particularly nutricious).

              Maori did the same thing nearly all other cultures did unless their rekigion or cultural beliefs forbade it. As soon as they got their hands on new & improved techniques, tools, implements they used and even adapted them.

            • Duker

               /  30th June 2020

              yes. The Inca were a larger population and more highly centralised culture and they didnt have a written language either and that was up till the Spanish arrived in 1553

    • Gezza

       /  30th June 2020

      From a quick google of other articles it seems the primary local iwi objection to the dioramas is that they do not depict Maori as a “vibrant, living culture”.

      As the dioramas reportedly depict the Maori of moa-hunting times & I assume reflect the known scholarly archaeological record it probably isn’t surprising that the conditions shown include features of Maori culture & technology not archaeologically seen to be developed until later in pre-European Maori history.

      Which is perhaps why the museum hasn’t just caved in & removed the lot. What they probably need to do is show the proofs of whatever archaeological records these depictions came from & also include depictions of the later known more developed cultures. That includes talking with iwi about what the record shows.

      Museums have traditionally shown historical exhibits reflecting technologies & artefacts of the time periods they were current in ways that show how they were used or probably used. They don’t usually try to then fit them into whatever the culture is the way it is today, or the way some people want to reinvent their history because they want to pretend their culture suddenly appeared as developed as it later became.

      Neolithic Britons are depicted as neolithic Britons, for example. As are other peoples’ neolithic societies.

      That diorama may be not so much inaccurate as too focussed on archaeological evidence of early Maori settlers, with not enuf shown of the subsequent evolution of more sophisticated permanent settlements like kainga & pa, & associated activities & social structures that followed.

      Te Papa has gone for contemporising Maori exhibits in a big way, which is fine for Te Papa, but it’s unusual for historical exhibits in museums, took a bit of getting used to, & Te Papa doesn’t have to be the standard approach for all.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  30th June 2020

        Whoops. Para 2

        *… it probably isn’t surprising that the conditions shown DON’T include features of Maori culture & technology not archaeologically seen to be developed until later in pre-European Maori history.

        Reply
      • Griff.

         /  30th June 2020

        Why do you think we have a stone working site at langs ?
        Because just 200 meters up the hill was a pa site and down another 70 meters is the creek where they found the suitable boulders to smash and chip into usable tools .

        The fancy greenstone or obsidian stuff you see in the museum was high status bling not what you used daily to cut up fish, sharpen your bird spear or bash fern roots to edible consistency. Stone working was needed all the time because stone tools do not last they break, chip or go blunt . If you needed to cut, scrape, hammer or drill anything it was by using a stone tool. You want to make a kit you need a stone tool to cut the flax, you want a bird spear you need a stone tool to cut your shaft and fashion a point, you want to fish you need a stone tool to cut the flax then strip it into fibers to plait your line and to fashion your hook or lure etc, etc, etc …..stone age.
        The first Pakeha thing Maori really glomed onto was metal in any form.
        A nail was so much better than a rock. The early accounts note visiting ships could be rendered almost un seaworthy with Maori liberating any nail or metal fitting they could get at when you were not looking or trading for them when you were.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  30th June 2020

          how long before the Maori took a shine to…grog?

          Reply
          • Griff.

             /  30th June 2020

            I know that some of the Maori around Russel are noted to be a debased bunch of drunks around the early 1800’s. Think of the wild west myths the cowboy was working all year and would go into town for maybe a week to spend his money .Russel “hellhole of the pacific” was the only town for thousnds of miles. At that time there were very few ways to get alcohol further afield. The settlers, whalers, timber men, traders and sealers that made up the few thousand Pakeha pre treaty simply worked to hard to spend much time making or drinking piss .

            Reply
  4. There’s a Trump tweet for every occasion. Many people are saying this one aged like a bottle of Purple Death. Nobody sticks it harder to 2020 Trump than 2014 Trump

    Reply
  5. Corky

     /  30th June 2020

    When I heard this interview with recently retired Deputy Police Commissioner, Mike Clement, I understood why he wasn’t chosen as the next Police Commissioner. He was articulate, witty and down to earth. At least that was my impression. And that impression was later confirmed to HDA by a raft of texts confirming similar perceptions as mine.

    This is not to say I agreed with everything he said. He was a little to soft on Maori issues for my liking. But at least he explained ”why’ from his perspective.

    When I look at the current Police Commissioner – a humourless PC scion- I can say I believe the people of NZ have been shafted.

    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/deputy-commissioner-mike-clement-reflects-on-42-years-on-the-front-line/

    Reply
    • Duker

       /  30th June 2020

      There were some ‘details’ where its best not to talk about regarding Clement. Its not a personal failing, as you could year hes an outstanding policeman, but more of some policies.

      Reply
  6. HOLY SHIT: They knew. They knew in early 2019.

    Trump knew
    Kushner knew
    Ivanka knew
    Bolton, Pompeo … They all knew and did nothing, no worse than nothing. They knew and they continued to court Putin. And invited the Taliban to Camp David. Meanwhile the US military coffins kept returning home.

    The people who freaked out about Benghazi for years have been realllyyyy quiet on this …

    “Top officials in the White House were aware in early 2019 of classified intelligence indicating Russia was secretly offering bounties to the Taliban for the deaths of Americans, a full year earlier than has been previously reported, according to U.S. officials with direct knowledge of the intelligence.

    The assessment was included in at least one of President Donald Trump’s written daily intelligence briefings at the time, according to the officials. Then-national security adviser John Bolton also told colleagues he briefed Trump on the intelligence assessment in March 2019.”

    https://apnews.com/425e43fa0ffdd6e126c5171653ec47d1

    Reply
    • Dukeofurl

       /  30th June 2020

      Could this just be a way of stopping Trumps plan to reduce US troops in Afghanistan ?
      All intell agencies do underhand things like this. Could it be the US doing the same in Syria for Russian troops , I dont know but wouldnt surprise me.
      You have to treat ‘secret intell ‘ like this what purpose does it serve to leak it out now. Apart from election time and payback to Trump

      Reply

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