Open Forum Monday

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82 Comments

  1. Blazer

     /  20th July 2020

    around the same number of jobs to go as at the smelter….were’sthe political rage ,how about a yearly subsidy!

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/300060721/950-jobs-to-go-union-says-the-warehouse-using-covid19-excuse

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  20th July 2020

      Ardern’s already expressed anger over Warehouse job cuts. The union is clearly of a view the company is putting profits before people. The worry is that this is just the start of worse to come in other retail chains & businesses. It will be interesting to see what coverage the tv media give this decision. The move to more online shopping during L4 lockdown was a development that always seemed likely to adversely impact shopfront retailers afterwards.

      Reply
  2. Corky

     /  20th July 2020

    Watched the TV1 Sunday programme. It was about Fetal alcohol syndrome. I could not believe my eyes or ears. Not one person interviewed would take responsibility for their actions. The mothers claimed ignorance even though they admitted they had done wrong. Ex children’s commissioner Andrew Becroft was woke as usual. I got the feeling interviewer Miriama Kamo wasn’t quite agreeing with what she was hearing. But being a woke media personality she was precluded for a harsher line of inquiry. Sean Plunket would have eaten these folk alive.

    Here’s my problem. The children featured were roughly between 8 and16. So let’s take 10years away from 2020. That leaves us with 2010. Fetal alcohol syndrome was well know at that time. Ads on TV, health workers hammering home the message to expectant mothers, especially Maori mothers. I cannot conceive that these mothers didn’t know drinking was bad for their baby. One mum said she thought the placenta acted as a filter for alcohol.

    What makes this worse is Sunday did a piece on pregnant Maori mothers smoking a few years back. At least these mothers had the balls to say they knew smoking was bad, but they couldn’t give up; or didn’t care.

    From the PM down…it’s never anyones fault.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  20th July 2020

      Getting drunk while pregnant was apparently normal. No parenting there from two generations?

      Reply
      • Corky

         /  20th July 2020

        At the very least I would say, Alan. Everyone always talks about breaking the cycle. I just hope these cases were the exception, but I fear not.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  20th July 2020

          You don’t need any brains to get pregnant and now we make sure the resulting children survive. That’s the unsolved problem.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  20th July 2020

            ‘Eugenics is a set of beliefs and practices that aim to improve the genetic quality of a human population, historically by excluding people and groups judged to be inferior and promoting those judged to be superior.’

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Natural selection did it automatically and rationally.

      • Gezza

         /  20th July 2020

        I watched that programme too. Corky’s not being entirely fair. All the mothers I saw knew that they were responsible for their FASD children’s condition & consequent struggles with life. And they all knew & accepted the condemnation from society they get for it. They were all bitterly regretful. And having to deal with the results.

        Kamo’s focus was on their inability to get the same amount of assistance from the Health system that mothers with, say ADHD-diagnosed or autistic children get. It’s difficult to even get a diagnosis of FASD for them. Only about 5% display the classic facial features associated with FASD.

        Becroft’s focus was on the tsunami of FASD children he reckons is already on us & how vulnerable such kids are to cognitive deficits, poor mood control, manipulation & being led – Teina Pora being a classic example of what happens to these children. Many end up in the Justice system because of the lack of apprpriate care in their early lives.

        I can certainly see Corky’s point that it seems hard to fathom how any of those mums featured could be unaware in even those days with all the messages about the dangers of alcohol to fetuses, but it was pretty obvious that they really were ignorant about it & at least one young Maori mum whose two FASD kids are being raised by someone else had such a terrible home life & upbringing she just blotted everything out with booze as a coping mechanism.

        The new message is that ANY alcohol when pregnant – or trying to get pregnant – is dangerous to your child. Becroft wants that given MUCH more prominence in alcohol marketing. Especially as booze is now more freely available than ever before.

        Hearing about the huge number of such broken kids & young likely to be out there was just depressing.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  20th July 2020

          The new message is that ANY alcohol when pregnant – or trying to get pregnant – is dangerous to your child.

          Yes, but is it true or just the perfect being the enemy of the good?

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  20th July 2020

            Seems likely to be true:
            https://www.healthlinkbc.ca/health-topics/tk3598

            The main problem is probably the number of young women & girls who get pregnant without planning to, but unfortunately also without planning not to. If regular drinking is part of their lifestyle they are not even going to know when to stop.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Why? That link merely makes vague unsupported assertions. Humans have been drinking alcohol for millennia without obvious problems. I doubt that moderate consumption has any measurable effect.

              All that kind of message does is terrify women who had a social drink before they knew they were pregnant. That seems cruel and irresponsible to me.

            • Gezza

               /  20th July 2020

              Fair enuf. I don’t know enuf about the research. And evn that link makes it clear the risks are greater & the likely effects more severe the more the woman drinks.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              They’ve been arguing over the good/bad effects of moderate alcohol on health for decades without convincing me there is any clear cut answer to a complex problem.

            • Gezza

               /  20th July 2020

              One of the most common cognitive deficit features of FASD sufferers, from what I saw, & no doubt a major contributor to their concentration & learning disabilities, is really bad memory recall & memory retention problems. We’ve probably got quite a few undiagnosed FASD mothers having more FASD children.

            • Alan, people have been saying for centuries that alcohol and pregnancy are a bad mix, but many people have dismissed it as urban myth.

    • In response to Corky – As someone who has been facilitating workshops and professional development across Northland for over 11 years now, I continue to come across women who are still not aware of the harm from drinking whilst pregnant. Given that FASD can be inter-generational by nature (mums with FASD giving birth to children with the same condition as a result of their pre-natal alcohol use) and that [still] medical and health professionals are giving inconsistent advice, it is a hard line to just blame the mothers. Having only just got stricter alcohol warning labels passed is but one measure needed. FASD is a community issue – one which community needs to take responsibility for. Our heavy drinking culture in NZ is one which needs to be addressed by evidence-based strategies – ones which have been recommended to – but ignored by – successive govts for decades.

      Reply
  3. Another National MP deciding to not stand this election.

    That’s not a very clear statement.

    Reply
      • Blazer

         /  20th July 2020

        JL Ross,Todd Muller and now Falloon all suffering mental issues.

        Thats alot for one political …party.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  20th July 2020

          Yes, to the extent we know. I suspect there is a lot we don’t know. It’s an awful life IMO.

          Reply
        • Gezza

           /  20th July 2020

          Sounds ominous. Now a lot of people will want to know what he’s done, even if it’s personally genuinely tragic. Have we ever had such a messy lead up to an election before?

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  20th July 2020

            Herald now reporting a complaint to the PM was passed on to Collins. Looks like she had to tell him to go.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  20th July 2020

              Wonder if Tova O’Brien is already in the know.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Stuff reporting it as an alcohol related incident.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Surely. If the complainant didn’t tell them someone else will have leaked.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Both Stuff and Herald have that allegation now.

            • Duker

               /  20th July 2020

              Seems like the mental health issue is ‘after’ the event being investigated by police and his personal life disintergrating in a matter of days
              Can’t see how a 37 yr can put this down to a friend’s suicide….

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Reportedly the incident followed alcohol event which may itself have been a symptom – or not. Why would age be a factor affecting response to suicide? We don’t have info to make judgements on any of that.

            • Duker

               /  20th July 2020

              Don’t have info?
              If it was left to the NP that’s exactly how they would like it.
              We saw this same time last week….error of judgement..won’t be making any further comment…..moving on..
              I can’t see how that sort of thing is a direct result of feeling depressed and some after dinner drinks…..
              No no no
              If you piled in during the labour camp scandal , now’s the Time to take your medicine

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Actually I didn’t pile in on the Labour camp abuse scandal. Those are not things I get very exercised about.

        • Gezza

           /  20th July 2020

          Herald:
          “Andrew Falloon has quit politics after the Prime Minister’s office was alerted to an incident involving the first-term National MP.

          The National Party says the 37-year-old is dealing with “significant mental health issues” after a friend’s death.

          The Prime Minister’s office has confirmed it was sent “a piece of correspondence” relating to an incident involving Falloon last week which was forwarded to National Party leader Judith Collins.

          “With the correspondent’s permission the letter was forwarded to the leader of the Opposition,” Jacinda Ardern’s office said today.

          “We treat all correspondence confidentially. All matters to do with Andrew Falloon’s resignation are a matter for the Leader of the Opposition.”

          The Herald understands the incident was not criminal but was deemed “inappropriate for an MP”. It’s also understood the incident is not related to an extra-marital affair or the leak scandal which engulfed the National Party last week.

          RNZ understands the party was notified on late Friday afternoon of an alcohol-related incident.”

          Quite a contrast with how National might have dealt with this sort of information under two previous leaders Ardern has behaved impeccably it seems & has the moral high ground.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  20th July 2020

            Which two previous leaders? Did anything comparable happen?

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  20th July 2020

              Bridges & Muller. Sorry, I was unclear. I meant, if the situation was reversed, & the information was about a misbehaving Labour MP, I just have the impression that someone in their teams who got wind of it would’ve leaked this kind of thing before Ardern had a chance to front foot it.

              But let’s just see how this plays out now. Certainly the last thing Collins needed.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              PM says the letter didn’t name the MP involved but she has. Maybe not quite so impeccable?

            • Gezza

               /  20th July 2020

              Depends WHEN she named him. Before or after the resignation announcement, when contacted by media. It’s an unfolding story. Let’s wait & see what comes out.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Seymour and Garrett saying he was a good ex-ACT colleague but an anonymous Kiwiblog commentor claiming he wasn’t good with his constituents.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Yes, not sure how Ardern inserted herself into the story.

            • Blazer

               /  20th July 2020

              Hard for you to accept the P.M has integrity and discretion is it?

              ‘ NewsHub are reporting that PM Jacinda Ardern received correspondence outlining the incident involving Andrew Falloon late last week. Consistent with her regular calls for kindness, Adern kept the correspondence confidential, and privately alerted National’s leader Judith Collins that there was an issue.’

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              I got that claim. Just wondering why she had to make it. Neither Collins nor Falloon mentioned her involvement?

            • Gezza

               /  20th July 2020

              Yes, that’s a valid question. First we get the Falloon “not standing” announcement with references to mental health issues.

              Then next we’re reading that the PM’s Office got a letter last week about a misbehaving National MP – which, she’s quoted in Stuff initially as saying didn’t name the MP, & which she forwarded to Collins’ Office, but which she’s also quoted as now saying was about Falloon.

              There’s some bits missing from this jigsaw puzzle & I can’t tell why the PM was contacted, what she was told, & asked, and what’s direct quotes & what’s a bit of rushed journalistic pull-together. They all seem to be now reporting each other.

            • Gezza

               /  20th July 2020

              Sorry, I’ll correct that. Stuff reported:

              “Ardern said she knew “very little” information about what the correspondence contained, and she did not know the identity of the MP it involved at the time”.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300061190/national-mp-for-rangitata-andrew-falloon-will-not-contest-upcoming-election

              The letter it seems probably DID name the MP. Ardern seems to be saying she didn’t want to know any details, & just told her office to forward it to Collins’ office.

            • Gezza

               /  20th July 2020

              Gawd. Headlines on 1News at 6 & their political editor, Jessica Mutch-McKay says she understands Falloon sent “pornographic material to a schoolgirl”.

            • Gezza

               /  20th July 2020

              Collins refuses to comment further. Says it has been dealt with.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Both Stuff and Herald have that allegation now. Didn’t take long for it to leak, did it?

              So who told?

            • Duker

               /  20th July 2020

              You can’t have the labour camp scandal taking up acres of newsprint egged on by national supporters- he wasn’t even a party member- and now it’s all circumspect even though police have been involved in this as well.
              As many have said , so much mental health issues in national this term…Jamie Lee Ross..Todd Muller and now Falloon

            • Corky

               /  20th July 2020

              Question is…how old was the school girl? I’m not interested in some thicko telling me that’s not the point. I hope some things are a given. I’m asking this from a legal point of view. To my knowedge the police aren’t involved.

          • Duker

             /  20th July 2020

            Harmful digital communications oldchap…
            Put 2 and 2 together are the only numbers you need, aren’t you the man of the world who doesn’t need a crystal ball to see that 37 yrs old and say 18 or younger don’t mix

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              A text pic is not a digital communication?

    • Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  20th July 2020

        A little bit strange that the complaint about a Nat MP was made to the PM. And that all the media are saying “We understand …”

        Suggests to me the parents were after his scalp and probably directly or indirectly have now followed up wholesale with the media.

        Reply
        • Duker

           /  20th July 2020

          Kiwiblog had a post a few days ago about scurrilous rumours about an MP which will be deleted….presumably this has now gone ‘viral’
          Are you somehow victim blaming because the parents are completely outraged.
          Wasn’t the same thing some years back , 2 teenage girls mum was outraged and took steps to tell other MPs?
          Are you saying they should have gone to the Nats leader, who could have kept it all hush hush?
          Whos to say they didn’t try that way and someone used a lawyer to protect their ‘privacy’
          In light of everything else, this could have been known by some senior people connected with national or even ACT as he has connections there as well…but not Collins.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  20th July 2020

            Normal action is to go to the police, not the PM. Yes, I think they wanted political scalps, perhaps after the police said it wasn’t criminal.

            So they and the PM’s staff and Collins’ staff were the only ones with the info. Who do you think went to the media today?

            Reply
            • Duker

               /  20th July 2020

              It was all over KB last week but was being deleted…..Falloon seems to have been one of those born to rule types, so would have some enemies…seems yo have been the political cadre type , working for Garrett from ACT, twice was on ACT list etc etc.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Obviously it wasn’t all over KB last week as the details have been changing by the minute. Spoutng crap as usual?

            • Duker

               /  20th July 2020

              You believe that ?
              But everything else is fabrication……maybe it’s you that needs support and ‘a lie down’

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Not me that is b.s.ing, Duker. I see the KB discussion is reaching the same conclusions.

        • Duker

           /  20th July 2020

          “Police conducted an investigation after receiving a report of an individual sending an unsolicited image,” a police spokesperson says.
          “The investigation determined it did not meet the threshold for prosecution. As such, no further action will be taken.”
          You are the classic victim blamer..
          They went to the police who for their own reasons did nothing, I can’t imagine this hasn’t been known within the national party for some weeks at least….who did nothing either
          I’m assuming Collins didn’t know till this weekend…..
          The rot wthin the party seems unbelievable, especially when you throw in the JLR mess as well.
          All electoral hope has to be forgotten now… Even more MPs will be leaving now, especially if they sat on this issue.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  20th July 2020

            I haven’t blamed the victim, merely made the obvious deductions about what has happened.

            Someone on KB said the earlier allegations have nothing to do with this.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              And the Herald is now saying the woman is a university student, not a schoolgirl.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              That makes it even more political and also opens up some media to liability for damages I should think.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Faloon says someone else at a party sent the text from his phone.

            • Duker

               /  20th July 2020

              So the health issue was just another attempt to cover it all up…. We went through all this bullshit stories to cover the truth over the last 2 weeks and the fools have learnt nothing…and there may another MP yet to come …

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Not necessarily. His mental state may have led to drink and that to other drunks grabbing his phone.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              The more we find out , the more it looks like the parent(s) are on a political vendetta. Rather bizarre. As a uni student I would have been appalled at my parents involvement in anything like this. The infantalism of youth continues.

            • Blazer

               /  20th July 2020

              Its o.k Al…Falloon said it wasn’t him that sent the dick pics….he left his phone unattended.
              What a …relief!

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Herald has rewritten its story around Faloon’s corrections. Stuff hasn’t which could make it more legally and morally vulnerable.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              You are way late with that, B, but I’m glad you are relieved.

            • Blazer

               /  20th July 2020

              Falloon has no need to resign then…it wasn’t him that done…it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th July 2020

              Comes back to mental health then, B. And whatever else were the mistakes he mentioned.

      • Corky

         /  20th July 2020

        By their words they will be known.

        daryljneal
        @daryljneal

        Without doubt..
        Or any one of their many shills from the herald to tv3 to zb.

        Reply
    • Blazer

       /  20th July 2020

      ‘, judging by the data, she’s an improvement over the last two leaders, at least on Facebook.’

      Some achievement! 🙂

      Reply

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