Open Forum Thursday

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53 Comments

  1. David

     /  23rd July 2020

    I dont think ILG was fired for the affair, if the rumours are true this isnt his first rodeo and the affair was quite well known for a while. My theory is his wife gave him an ultimatum that if you want this to work you have to quit politics because I dont trust you so it gave Ardern a chance to look tough so they staged the sacking.
    Alternatively someone involved was about to blow a load of sordid details so he exited himself early. There is no way Ardern has had a change in personality, either way well played Judith Collins, she has just shown Peters how to distract attention masterfully.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  23rd July 2020

      As the affair is said to have ended months ago I think it most unlikely his wife would have wanted to expose it & herself & their children to the public & their friends and family.

      As it is said by Barry Soper (& Garner this morning) to have been well-known, it is far more likely to a calculated hit job. The third party could be anybody who knew about it. It’s not likely to be the spurned lover because she is probably identifiable & knows it & would become the target of opprobrium

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  23rd July 2020

        I meant the third party is unlikely to be someone acting on behalf of the former lover.

        But whoever it was, the “rules” have now been changed. Garner says such known affairs have usually previously been off limits for divulging by journos. Possibly because some of them too have indulged in known affairs.

        This change probably really started with the revelations about JLR’s infidelities. Personally, I’d rather not know about this sort of thing.

        Reply
        • Duker

           /  23rd July 2020

          That was arranged by National party at the time , to discredit Jamie Lee Ross.
          This latest revelations are arranged as payback , again by National

          Whats the pattern that you can see.
          I think Collins is as bad as Muldoon in taking these steps, theres bound to be others as she is going to abandon other conventions as well.

          Reply
    • lurcher1948

       /  23rd July 2020

      So in the eyes of the rightwing supporters here,an affair between a man and or a women is worse than a perv sextxting in the depths of the night

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  23rd July 2020

        From what I’ve read, no it isn’t. They mostly seem to be complaining that she sacked him over a consensual affair between adults that was nobody else’s business & might be seen by some as morally reprehensible but shouldn’t itself be grounds for dismissal.

        Reply
        • I think that he’s been used as a sacrifice. I don’t have much time for him, but if this was an ordinary workplace, he might well have grounds for an action for unlawful dismissal.The affair ended some time ago. There seems not to have been a conflict of interests here.

          Any married person who has a relationship in the workplace is asking for trouble; we all know the saying about the dirty bird fouling its own nest.

          Reply
        • Duker

           /  23rd July 2020

          Two things wrong with that :
          1) he was her ‘boss-( Minister -Advisor’ ) and thats a big no no in any situation. I dont know the situation but seems to have been a casual relationship and that could mean either is using or being used in the circumstances.
          2) he was Ministers of Work Place Relations , and thats not ‘good behaviour’ in any workplace

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  23rd July 2020

            Yes. Re 1) I’m aware of that distinction being made, & Ardern was very careful to point that out as the reason for his dismissal – but we have no idea whether a direct employer-employee relationship existed (her employer may have been her department or agency & known nothing about it), nor who initiated it, nor whether there actually was a power imbalance. The affair had ended.

            Re 2) Yes, again Ardern made that same very point but that’s getting more into moral judgement territory.

            On balance I think she made the right call in all the circumstances, but if the affair had never come to light & was over it would have remained a strictly personal matter. It didn’t necessarily impact on his work.

            One thing that should by now be very obvious to all in politics here is that if you have an affair it’s going to be noticed & pounced on by opponents or jilted lovers & a disingenuous media hungry for salacious news to publish.

            Reply
            • It always has been. Look at the cartoons about Charles Fox and the Duchess of Devonshire; I doubt if anyone would dare to print them now.

              Parnell’s affair with Kitty O’Shea ended his career.

          • Duker

             /  23rd July 2020

            Slight distinction , as Minister he doesnt employ staff, Ministerial services do ( or the Ministry if they are on secondment.)
            However he was ‘the boss’ … would be the same in any situation , where ‘the company’ is the employer but the employee is under direction of who ever ‘the boss’ is .
            Employment law handles those situations as it would be untenable to do otherwise.

            Divorce cases, teachers tribunal rulings, etc all get reported on where there is inappropriate relationship.

            Why should politicains get an exemption from scrutiny. If that convention mattered it should have prevented Collins from ‘lighting the fuse’ on this one.
            We know she broke the convention so no pretending it didnt happen and we cant do it in future.
            There should be a no bonking rule ..full stop….including with media or employees at parliament. So no transferring someone to a different minister so the affair can happen.
            The only way to ensure compliance is publicity

            Just today we hear about Craig V Slater again . Now their relations were the subject of much publicity at the time and still are .
            The Court said they were initially intimate but not intercourse- what ever that means- but she then wanted to be ‘professional’ and he wanted to be lovey dovey still with soppy letters

            Click to access Craig-v-Slater-CA6962018.pdf


            [2}”From 2011 until 2014, Rachel MacGregor was the press secretary for Mr Craigand the party. It is evident that an attraction developed between the two, part spiritual, part romantic and part sexual. Some sexual activity (short of intercourse) occurred between them on one occasion, on the night of the 2011 general election.
            Ms MacGregor then came to her senses and sought to revert to a professional
            relationship only.2 The same cannot be said of Mr Craig. He continued to write
            Ms MacGregor lengthy personal letters and poems”

            Alison Mau is going to have a difficult time trying to explain away that, and keep Ms Macgregor as the victim.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  23rd July 2020

              There should be a no bonking rule ..full stop….including with media or employees at parliament. So no transferring someone to a different minister so the affair can happen.

              The only way to ensure compliance is publicity.

              I think it would almost impossible to police. They’d have to sign up to a Code of Conduct of some kind. Then someone would have to be responsible for investigating allegations & enforcing it, or ensuring Party Leaders enforced it.

              What if the MP is single, or divorced, or their long term partnership breaks up? Are they forbidden from developing any relationships with anybody they see around Parliament & might want to ask out?

              I met my late wife at work. I was her supervisor for a short while & when I was promoted to another unit I asked her out. We were soon dating & lunching & walking together but it was nobody’s business what else was going on as it wasn’t affecting our work or happening during working hours.

              What if the Party Leader is an adulterer? Would it have to be written in to the Code that they must leave? Wouldn’t that require a statutory provision?

            • Duker

               /  23rd July 2020

              Collins could lead the way by putting her own new standard which she applied for ILG, but this time its her own caucus….. fat chance!
              As for other dating options …heard of Tinder.
              Mps must meet more people in their real job outside parliament than almost any one else…not a limit at all

            • Gezza

               /  23rd July 2020

              Fair points. But for what you propose to be rules, these would have to be put into some kind of Code of Conduct for MPs. It would never be appropriate for media to police it through publicising affairs. They can be too partisan & may have their own indiscretions to collectively cover up.

              The alternative would be for all parties to have & publish their own codes of conduct. They don’t seem disposed to do that.

              I’m not opposed to it I’m just trying to see where there might be problems getting it done.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  23rd July 2020

              Collins could lead the way by putting her own new standard which she applied for ILG,

              Why that blatant lie, Duker?

            • Should she have kept quiet and not passed on the info that she’d been sent ?

              She gave Andrew Falloon the sack before the PM gave ILG the sack.

  2. duperez

     /  23rd July 2020

    Should we all write a book about it? See who can come up with the best theories?

    And when we’ve finished with him who should we move onto?

    I’m capable of coming up with a great range of insinuations couched in tantalising terms fitting snugly within libel laws. I have been accused of having a good imagination too.

    Complaints are always there about the MSM, its inadequacies, lack of class and appealing to a lowest common denominator. The MSM is just media as this site is. It performs functions fitting the outlook of its audience.

    It’s interesting when those who rubbish the rubbish approach of MSM are so enveloped they may not recognise they’re not just in the same game but they’re playing it the same way they say they despise.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  23rd July 2020

      I prefer not to speculate much beyond what is known altho when someone does I might comment on what I think makes their theory unlikely or what might support it. Blogs are notorious for partisan speculations & I’m sure I’m not immune from that. But I’m trying to keep it real as far as I can.

      Reply
  3. Blazer

     /  23rd July 2020

    The cartoon in todays Herald sums up the respective virtue of Ardern and Collins.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  23rd July 2020

      Maybe. Ardern’s office was quick to confirm it had received an allegation about Falloon & inappropriate behaviour very soon after he & Collins announced he had resigned, but nobody knows why someone in the media asked if she had received such information, or if they just asked for any comment, why her office volunteered that she had.

      Collins went public with information she had received & passed on an allegation of “fairly inappropriate behaviour” to Ardern & that created intense interest that gazzumped Ardern’s announcement she had sacked Lees-Galloway the night before.

      The ILG affair (it is now claimed by some journos) was widely known & gossiped about within the Parliamentary & Press Gallery precincts, and had ended. So it sure looks like a setup & a hit job to put Ardern in a difficult situation that required resolute action – whichever way she went able to be criticised by political & media detractors.

      It comes down to whether one believes Ardern & her office’s team had no prior knowledge of ithe affair, & also whether one believes someone unknown was primed to ask the PM’s office if they had received an allegation about Falloon & what was the nature of it to make disclosure of the offence a media imperative.

      Reply
      • Judith Collins didn’t go into any details and it was the PM who made the announcement and gave them about ILG.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  23rd July 2020

          The issue isn’t so much what she said but that she arranged for details of a defunct private affair that pollies & the parliamentary press already knew about & kept under wraps to be sent to Ardern. Putting the PM in an awkward situation that would cause criticism whatever she did or said. The PM couldn’t simply say she knew nothing about any “fairly inappropriate behaviour” by a Labour Minister once Collins told Garner she’d received such information.

          Reply
    • Patzcuaro

       /  23rd July 2020

      Reply
      • Jack

         /  23rd July 2020

        The cartoonist might better depict Ardern with fans clamouring and Collins solo enjoying a cuppa with work papers in front of her.

        Reply
        • Jack

           /  23rd July 2020

          To have a blank space for Ardern shows a lack of critical thinking from Rod Emmerson. Or – perhaps?

          Reply
          • Jack

             /  23rd July 2020

            https://www.newsroom.co.nz/young-act-sexual-abuse-allegations

            “It’s almost as though David doesn’t want justice. He wants silence.”
            A better way for any political group would be to scrap enquiries, delete well-being policy and for leadership to uphold a culture where they make the decisions re who goes and who stays.
            That method is too easy of course. Silence creates the drama our politicians seem to crave.

            Reply
            • You have missed the point of the cartoon, unsubtle, biased and inaccurate as it is.

            • And you certainly haven’t read the whole ACT article.

              David Seymour has said nothing to indicate that he wants silence; did you not read about the enquiry, the removal of the people involved and the rest of it ? Or that this is a supporters’ group, not an official part of the ACT party?

              The ‘sex abuse’ seems to have been inappopriate texting and such things rather than anything physical. No, PDT/s, I am not saying that that is all right.

            • Duker

               /  23rd July 2020

              “not an official part of the ACT party?”

              Thats a ripe one …. Young ACT isnt part of ACT , but they ‘can use their branding’
              If it was a company you would say that ACT is shadow directors of the ‘Young Act ‘ business

              as for not physical, have you not read it closely?
              ““How can we continue society as usual when society as usual is ravaging the mental health of our young? How can we continue to praise young men whoassault young women?”

              McKie, who was a member of Young ACT for about a year, said allegations ofassault and misogyny were swept under the rug.”

              However once its in black and white you’ll still gaslight them.

            • Don’t be silly; that emotive question is a general one and a rhetorical one, disingenuously worded. Nothing specific, of course.

              Allegations are not proof.

              You don’t seem to know the meaning of ‘gaslighting.’

            • Duker

               /  23rd July 2020

              There you go ..gaslighting.. ( pretending it didnt happen)

              “seems to have been inappopriate texting and such things rather than anything physical.”
              You didnt have any proof either yet 2 different women say it WAS physical.
              We arent a court , all we can say is the claims are that it was physical. Complete contradiction to you pussyfooting around in rejecting their direct quotes.

      • Patzcuaro

         /  23rd July 2020

        Reply
        • Duker

           /  23rd July 2020

          Ah the Intelligence Unit…. its like the Stasi and they files on political opponents going back years … FB, Blogs anything like that , especially activists who might become Mps , even nobodies who end up on the list at 59

          Reply
  4. Pink David

     /  23rd July 2020

    Portland

    Reply
  5. Duker

     /  23rd July 2020

    Interesting answers to questions to 2 first term women MPs about Parliaments culture
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/421823/question-time-first-term-mps-on-parliament-culture
    Q: Are you both happy to go on the record now and say you wouldn’t leak anything, you wouldn’t play the dirty politics card?
    “Andersen: “Completely. I got into politics for the reason of trying to turn that around. I believe strongly that you should walk the talk, that you should deliver what you say you do…”

    Willis from National dodges the question completely while the Labour Mp answers it
    “Willis: “I came to Parliament because I care about policy and issues and ideas and that’s what I’m there for. I also believe in the values of the National Party and a very important one of which is personal responsibility and I do take responsibility for my actions and my behaviour…”

    So she WONT go on the record and say she wont leak and play dirty politics, instead its …blather… personal responsibility.

    Reply
    • Rubbish; it’s obvious that she is doing no such thing. Andersen’s answer is waffle.

      Reply
      • Duker

         /  23rd July 2020

        The complete opposite to what they say .
        One said “Completely” when asked if she would go on the record….
        the other talked about something completely different…a standard political non answer.

        You have taken up the gaslighting with gusto today..

        Reply
        • Oh, do drop that gaslighting cllche and find something else to say. How often are you going to trot it out ? I am doing no such thing. You, on the other hand, are indulging in trolling and putting words into people’s mouths.

          The smugness of saying that she went into politics to stop that is arrogant and inane. It seems an odd reason to go into politics and can never be accomplished by one person.Why on earth would someone go into politics with that as a main motive ? It’s followed by cliches that are totally irrelevant.

          The other answer says honestly why she went into politics. The fact that she didn’t specify that she wouldn’t engage in dirty politics is not the same as saying that she would, It’s an insulting question and a stupid one.

          She’s saying it indirectly by saying why she DID go into politics. If you are too literal minded to understand that, that’s your misfortune.

          Reply
  6. duperez

     /  23rd July 2020

    Someone sent me what he called a ‘bitch sandwich’ he spotted in a Paper Plus store on the North Shore this morning.

    Reply
    • Duker

       /  23rd July 2020

      Oughh ..you are awful

      Reply
    • Gezza

       /  23rd July 2020

      Did he know you’d post it here? Are you intending to see others if others can compete by posting images and captions of Ardern like that one? And waiting to see which ones get deleted?

      Reply
      • duperez

         /  23rd July 2020

        I guess with the Ardern ones he’d have to go around to the other side of the stand as they’d be turned around. 🙂 And in the first instance have to wait for the Woman’s Weekly and Women’s Day to go back into production anyway. 🙂

        He didn’t know what I’d do with it, it just caught his eye when he was in shop. You reckon a shop assistant would do it deliberately?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  23rd July 2020

          I dunno. It just looks like a way of calling Collins a bitch here. So what licence might some conceivably take to reciprocate? Never mind. Maybe none of her critics will go that far.

          Reply
        • I suspect that someone did it deliberately, but not a shop assistant.

          It seems an unlikely combination for a shelf (or a display table) with a novel, two autobios and a set of children’s books in a row.

          It’s also possible that it’s a fake photo.

          Reply
    • Corky

       /  23rd July 2020

      Why?

      Reply
  7. PartisanZ

     /  23rd July 2020

    Gone kinda quiet … hasn’t it?

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  23rd July 2020

      I was buying a new sauna . Mine will have far-infrared technology. Great for getting rid of toxins; both self generated and handed on by others.

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  24th July 2020

        Will there be room for your dogge in the….hot tub?

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  24th July 2020

          Nope. I don’t have a hot tub unfortunately. Alan is the man for that. Us RIGHTIES love our creature comforts. That’s what puts us ahead of the game.

          Reply

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