Open Forum Saturday

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56 Comments

  1. David

     /  1st August 2020

    Another fact free effort from Luke Malpass, its actually an absurd premise and conflating a couple of months of upheaval now largely settled as some existential crisis and loss of identity. As a political reporter he should be aware of Nationals policy platform, what it did in the last 9 years including increasing benefits, supporting people through the GFC and quakes, investing in solo mums and settling a swathe of treaty claims. National have moved leftwards and Collins is leaving it there.
    It is polling in the mid 30s and will likely rise as the campaign gets underway and while Ardern has done a very good job with Covid her first term has been largely achievement free. Her signature environmental policy was passed with Nationals support. Arderns recent post out of lockdown has been just an endless series of unfocussed largesse to favoured groups who usually pop up in election campaigns as squeeky wheels, these have now been cleverly oiled.
    I get he has a thing for Ardern but just dont bring it to work it looks a bit tragic and sad.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/122295535/nationals-identity-crisis-is-bad-for-nzs-democracy

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  1st August 2020

      The author is Martin Van Beynen, not Luke Malpass.

      Reply
    • Blazer

       /  1st August 2020

      9 years of neglect is 9 years of neglect…..your attempts to put polish on a disgraceful period in NZ’s history are pathetic.

      Keys biggest disappointment=the flag referendum.

      His Govts biggest achievement=privatising high country pastoral leases so millionaires could own them.

      Reply
      • “9 years of neglect” was overused by government MPs and is ridiculous now. It’s meaningless – all past governments can be accused of neglecting some things.

        It’s just a vague lazy diss absent any arguments, about a period of history that means nothing about the political future here.

        I get it that some people are totally against National being in power for any reason, and some people are against Labour being in power for any reason, but I think that partisan intolerance is ridiculous in a democracy that will only thrive if we have strong representation across the political spectrum.

        Some aged activists seem to only want one party rule but I think that’s a pathetic position in a modern MMP based democracy.

        Reply
        • The 9 years of neglect bleat is old and whiskery and an insult to National and the people who voted for them. It also totally ignores all the things that National did.

          When will the people who abuse John Key for the flag referendum admit that Andrew Little and Labour wanted a new flag first ?

          Reply
          • Fight4nz

             /  1st August 2020

            Did… like put as much agricultural land, residential property, businesses, electricity generation, dairy industry, water, swamp kauri, etc in foreign ownership as they could? No, wasn’t ignoring that at all.
            Also didn’t ignore the decimation of heavy industry and manufacturing, DOC, the quality of life and environment afforded by a population that under 4 million and the ability of infrastructure to cope. Nor use of Panamanian tax havens and use of social media to coerce and manipulate.
            No, definitely not ignoring what they did.

            Reply
            • Kimbo

               /  1st August 2020

              And her we have exhibit A for the prosecution re my thesis below that political tribalists think and talk with all the bigotry of religious zealots.

              Basic fact check, no, the Key Government did not “put as much… electricity generation…in foreign hands as they could ” (and you are so addled with your supposed prophetic litany of judgement you confused electricity supply with generation)

              …because they only did a partial sale of the state-owned assets concerned, and one of less than 50% at that.

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11172629

              But in anticipation, yeah, yeah, it was only because saintly Russel Norman and the righteous Greens organised a non-binding referendum against the partial sell-off that the evil incompetent economic-traitor John Key didn’t follow through on his secret neo-lib agenda to sell it ALL off. Ho, hum, tribalists have an answer for everything, including non-falsifiable conspiracy theories and claims of bad faith to buttress their bigotry when the facts are false…

          • Fight4nz

             /  1st August 2020

            Yes we all wanted a new flag, just not a hand towel.

            Reply
            • You are misquoting the teatowel cliche. The fact that they are the same shape doesn’t mean that they are the same thing. What shape did you expect a flag to be ? Almost all flags are rectangular.

              The other things you claim are gross distortions of what actually went on, needless to say.

            • Kimbo

               /  1st August 2020

              …and yet that is what the choice the appointed process produced…and there was little, if any, meaningful critique of that process.

              Is as foolish as Nigel Latta complaining that $26m was spent on that process when it could have alleviated child poverty.

              https://mobile.twitter.com/nigellatta/status/594956256663633923

              Yeah, well Nige, Civics 101: Preserving Democracy costs, including taxes. The practical problem is that much of the cost was likely posting out and returning enrolment forms and ballots, rather than going entirelyelectronic. And the reason that was done was to accommodate the small minority who aren’t connected to the internet. And if Key had dared to leave them out there would have been a song-and-dance about his fascist and racist marginalising of the poor…

              So, just to clarify, it was indeed Labour Party policy to look to change the flag, right up until Key suggested it?

            • David

               /  1st August 2020

              Odd but one would think with a name like fight4nz would welcome a chance to remove the british flag from ours and have one that looks less like the ones the british imposed on all their colonies.

            • Duker

               /  1st August 2020

              Britain didnt impose any flag designs on its former colonies- they were independent thats whey they needed a new flag. The flag Britain used for its colonies was the full Union jack. The locals would have been 90% in favour of the design at the time, only Irish hating it .

          • Kimbo

             /  1st August 2020

            That may be a rhetorical question, but as per Pete, they likely never will.

            Like the religious, political tribalists inhabit a conceptual world of quasi-saints and sinners, angels and demons, those entirely on God’s side…and those in the service of the devil. To suggest otherwise, including a middle path of assessing impirically, is both heresy and, like the reaction of Creationists to Evolution, a Satanic test of their true faith.

            And it gets worse around election time! 😳

            Reply
            • Fight4nz

               /  1st August 2020

              Agreed.

            • Kimbo

               /  1st August 2020

              Then as per my response to you above, we may be on the cusp of an interesting discussion… 😃

            • Kimbo

               /  1st August 2020

              Then again, “You’re a tribalist”… “no, your are!” soon runs dry as a profitable discussion. 😂

            • Corky

               /  1st August 2020

              ”To suggest otherwise, including a middle path of assessing empirically, is both heresy and, like the reaction of Creationists to Evolution.”

              The middle path stands for mediocrity and mush. It’s where compromise and pragmatism rein supreme. That’s all good and cool until everyone realises there is no one rule book for the middle way… we all know what comes next.

              Maybe an answer lies in your quote.

            • Kimbo

               /  1st August 2020

              Maybe, Corky. As per Barry Goldwater, “Extremism in defence of liberty is no virtue. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no vice”.

              But then, not everything is about liberty, justice or similarly important concerns. Despite the proclivity of zealots to convince themselves continually that their thoughts, words and deeds, are.

              And if someone is convinced they are on the side of angels, then irrespective of the details and overall ideology, they are psychologically unlikely to possess the intellectual hygiene/quality control to adequately test if maybe, just maybe, part or much of what they are convinced is right, ain’t necessarily so.

            • Fight4nz

               /  1st August 2020

              “ Then again, “You’re a tribalist”… “no, your are!” soon runs dry as a profitable discussion”
              Indeed. So doesn’t bode well as your opening salvo.
              🤔

            • Kimbo

               /  1st August 2020

              @ Fight4nz

              Indeed, and a genuine thanks for extrapolating the implication of my post.

            • I thought that NZ had the White Ensign (?) flag at one time.

            • Duker

               /  1st August 2020

              Only recently did we have the NZ white ensign with SX stars, previously we used the RN version with St George Cross.
              Australia and NZ used versions of the RN blue ensign while Canada for various reasons had the Mercantile red ensign version , although the formal flag remained the Union jack until 1965 until replaced by the Red Maple leaf flag. The Naval flag used blue instead of Red for the old ensign, now they use white with maple leaf flag in corner
              Some ‘monocultural groups’ ( you know who I mean) still use the old Red Ensign design

    • Duker

       /  1st August 2020

      Audrey Young says the same thing …its factional warfare in the party between the liberal and conservative wings…Bridges and Collins are a bit outside the conservative faction but lean that way. Muller was the same but was put in power by the liberals
      Election 2020: Audrey Young – National in danger of listing too far right after exit of Nikki Kaye and Amy Adams
      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12352480
      “Fast forward to Thursday and you saw Kaye and Adams describing with pride their work on the abortion legislation, the euthanasia bill, gay marriage, and other Rainbow issues. Their work has been strongly opposed by a group of hardcore Christian colleagues, mainly first-term MPs, who include Hipango, Loheni, Simeon Brown, Chris Penk and Paulo Garcia, along with more experienced MPs Simon O’Connor and Alfred Ngaro, who briefly flirted with the idea of starting a Christian Party.”

      The fact is the National caucus has been warring among themselves most of this term over conscience issues and made splits over leadership easier. The leadership camps, the pro-Bridges and anti-Bridges, did not necessarily split into the same teams, although the leading liberals eventually organised Todd Muller’s coup. But the intensity with which those corners were fought meant the caucus this term has never had a true sense of unity.”

      “Judith Collins is now that bridge – often perceived as a social conservative because of her hardline stance on law and order issues but in fact is as liberal as Kaye and Adams when it comes to her voting record. Publicly this week, she defended her MPs’ right to attack Ardern over the abortion issue.” ( which she voted for)

      Reply
  2. NOEL

     /  1st August 2020

    Some estimates put “swing voter”, “fence sitters”, call them what you will at 47 percent.
    It’s longer any use putting out policies that are attractive only to partisan voters.

    Reply
    • I’d describe many of them as people prepared to judge candidates and parties on their merits at the time of the election rather than based on established partisan intolerance of any alternative.

      Because Labour look to be home and hosed as long as there is no major issue erupting there could be quite a bit of creative tactical voting.

      I doubt I will vote Labour because they look like they will have more than enough support as it is.
      The only reason I might vote National is because it’s important to have a decent sized opposition party.
      I could vote ACT to help give them a chance of establish a party presence in Parliament again.
      I will consider voting Green because I think they are still worth being in Parliament.
      I an very unlikely to vote NZ First because I don’t trust Peters nor like his outdated division brand of politics, and i donn’t rate Jones either.
      There’s very little credible other options this time, which is sad.

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  1st August 2020

        this is terrible ‘logic’ an an indictment on rational voting…if it became popular a huge unintended consequence could result…

        ‘I doubt I will vote Labour because they look like they will have more than enough support as it is.’

        Reply
        • It my seem like ‘terrible logic’ to you I presume because the aim is different to you.

          I’d rather have a strong multi party parliament rather than a parliament dominated by any one party, which would be bad for democracy and bad for representation and diversity.

          I think that tactical voting is far more logical than blindly voting for one party.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  1st August 2020

            Its at odds with your previous claim to vote for…policy!

            Reply
            • Duker

               /  1st August 2020

              It’s unlikely Collins will have any serious policy, other than that cribbed from Boris Johnston’s winning campaign
              “In its crude but effective repetitions, and its promises to “champion freedom of expression” and “unleash the country’s potential” by cutting red tape”
              No wonder they have no need for Hootons dark arts of messaging, let’s hope they didn’t even think of ..you know …dirty politics?

  3. Reply
  4. Jack

     /  1st August 2020

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/sarah-dowie-part-2-power-politics-and-a-predator

    Ms Reid should not be allowed to provide this without the ‘victims’ fronting up publicly. This is Parliament work being trivialised.
    Sarah highlights for us again that she was not cut out to represent her community. If she was any where near of that calibre, she would be apologising now rather than crying to Ms Reid.
    Again, where’s the science?
    Sarah made things worse at governmental level and she could have ‘warned’ women of these pitfalls by running a coffee club and via a social media following. This is not her line of work/expertise – yet she gets media attention as though it is.
    She has used media to claim the high ground, complaining that Mr Ross gets media attention – yet we haven’t once seen media doing as he allegedly desired.
    Who wouldn’t want his name cleared? No chance. He has to prove his worth and self-known integrity the long hard way. Politics as usual. We could do without Ms Reid’s bs. She’s worse than social media at its nastiest. This is corruption.

    Reply
    • Duker

       /  1st August 2020

      It’s all explained by this
      “Narrative journalism is a genre of feature writing that combines rigorous reporting with fiction-writing techniques and eschews dramatic, news-making events to focus on everyday life and ordinary people. “
      “The narrative journalism style requires that the author put him – or herself into the article; thus, the piece may be written from a first-person perspective. …. ”
      That story was a variation…..not so ordinary MP but made out as though she was a minor staff member…and as for fiction writing techniques….say no more…Melanie Reid is the prime example of this

      Reply
    • Kimbo

       /  2nd August 2020

      Took the time to watch the interviews.

      Fact 1: Dowie acknowledges she made the choices that resulted in end of her career.

      Fact 2: more women have complained about Jamie Lee Ross

      Fact 3: Jamie Lee Ross is running again for re-election, there fore fact 2 is in the public interest.

      For the rest, those who have been burned by a narcissist- and politics likely attracts more than its share of them due to the need for attention (known as “narcissistic supply” by psychologists) – will recognise the story and judge the authenticity of Dowie’s words for herself. And the worth of Reid’s work.

      And unlike Dowie, who has already decided she is not up to holding political office, we all get to judge on the authenticity when deciding whether to vote in 2020 for Jamie Lee Ross…or not.

      Reply
      • Jack

         /  2nd August 2020

        Kimbo’s Fact 2. Doesn’t mean the complaints are fair minded. Ms Reid’s style is unfair and troubling. It feeds into other wannabe victim’s distortions, many of them youth and/or shallow minded voters.
        Ms Dowie was extremely ambitious herself. Yet she blames, among other things, Mr Ross’s ambition on her downfall. From memory, it was shared that their relationship turned sour when she wanted his commitment (as she had already broken her marriage) and he decided that it was wrong to cheat on his wife and children, and pulled away from his wrong.
        Would just like to see some fairness applied. Better still, not hear about these upsets at all.
        To date, Ms Dowie’s actions display the characteristics of desiring narcissistic supply. I think she simply feels guilty. Poor lady keeps digging.
        This style of journalism should be mocked. It makes it difficult for youth to ‘judge authenticity’ as you say. Whereas, we want freedom and peace of mind to judge policies.
        My judgement re authenticity is that Mr Ross has far more of it than those crying to media. The timing of it all was just dreadful for him, that’s all. It will take a long time to shake it off if ever – his character narrative constantly gets written by others. He needs to carry his cross Kimbo. I wonder if he has identified it yet.
        Go away Kitty. I don’t need your telling offs.

        Reply
        • Kimbo

           /  2nd August 2020

          Kindly stop telling me or other voters whom you arrogantly deem to be of less sound judgement than yourself (a questionable thesis, imho) what should be censored from me when I am capable of making up my own mind, including if Sarah Dowie is being manipulative and to what extent, thank you very much.

          It is a fact a number of women in and around parliament have complained, which seems to verify a pattern of behaviour in someone…running for public office. Public interest stabilised. Anything else that avoids that directly – and I note JLR sidestepped the question when HDPA confronted him about it – is a distraction and interference. Including your hypothetical that they may not be “fair-minded”.

          To that end, your appeal for “fairness” especially in journalism is a nebulous whining waste of time, more suited to a child than a supposed adult. Journalists have legitimate editorial stances, just as consumers of media have their preferences, Don’t like the journalist (and you’ve confirmed you don’t), don’t listen or read.

          But if you want to concern troll and tell us what deserves to be mocked, knock yourself out. To that end, in my judgement it is your pious naive sanctimony that deserves to be mocked in this context. That you presume to think you can criticise others, yet issue commands (“Go away Kitty. I don’t need your telling off”) reveals to the careful reader that your musings have the flavour of cant and special pleading.

          Reply
          • Jack

             /  2nd August 2020

            Looks like you deserve to be mocked Kimbo.
            That was a joke for Kitty – one which I think she might just about get.
            Lie down poor Kimbo. Everything’s OK.

            Reply
            • Kimbo

               /  2nd August 2020

              “Lie down poor Kimbo”.

              Still issuing commands, and patronising others I see.

              And if “everything’s ok”, why your repeated hang-writing over an adult journalist interviewing a fellow adult soon-to-be-ex-politician, about a fellow adult hopefully-also-soon-to-be-ex-politician, that is read and listened to by fellow adult voters?

              And I also note that rather engage with the substance of my critique, in classic infantile “no, you are” fashion, you think I too “deserve to be mocked”. For…failing to distinguish your attempt at an ironic in-joke in a place of…public discourse? Hmm, I think a sober minded judge would consider it was your inadequacy in communicating intent that was the problem, but hey, if you think I too deserve to be mocked in the matter, again, and as per your unsolicited advice to Ms Dowie,

              ….keep on digging.

              To my mind it confirms that rather than just being misinformed, your cant, lack of judgement and failure to self-examine points to something more (to use the descriptor you so easily threw around like chimp poo concerning Melanie Reid and Sarah Dowie)…corrupt.

            • Jack

               /  2nd August 2020

              Way to go on a Sunday morn Kimbo. Yep, my education was cut short by abusers. I might’ve turned out eloquent like you and Kitty otherwise.
              Special pleading? Why not?
              Whiners can’t carry their crosses.

            • Kimbo

               /  2nd August 2020

              So now, having been called out for wanting to censor information from other voters whom you deem mentally unfit to judge, slamming the proverbial crap out of Reid’s professionalism, Dowie’s intent, and questioning the integrity of the multiplicity (triple word score!) of those who put their necks on he line by complaining about JLR

              …you distract with working class reverse-snobbery by trying to make this about alleged educational discrepancies and style, and not the substance of what is posted

              …and allude to some form of Christian martyrdom on your part in this exchange?

              Please, Jack, tell us you have something more when you are called out and, in effect hoist by your own petard than,

              “Nyaa nyaa nyaa nyaa na nyaa!”

            • Jack

               /  2nd August 2020

              Sorry Kimbo old chap, you’ve kinda lost me.
              Back to topic then?
              What would it take for Ms Reid to offer a walk in the park unscientific interview to Mr Ross?
              God forbid him accepting! Experienced fellas like you have already accepted the word of the anons – sold yourself out to pop? Where’s your cross? You’ve made it clear in times past that you know something about the cross.

            • Jack

               /  2nd August 2020

              Guaranteed Kimbo, you don’t know what your cross to bear is!
              Clue – it’s nothing to do with ‘Christian martyrdom’. (I’ve never chased that in my life, contrary to your stupid accusation.)
              You don’t know what your cross is Kimbo and it’s you who is called out in this debate, revealed by your own lost temper.

              My guest post is more readable than yours.

              I’ve finished digging this particular hole for you. You mocked yourself, as do the churches you believe in.

              Thanks for showing that my critique re the topic reached an audience.

            • Kimbo

               /  2nd August 2020

              So the guy who flooded the discussion with irrelevant Inanities (triple word score!) like education qualifications and the day of the week, and commits false witness by saying I believe what complainants about JLR say, now quibbles about getting back on topic?!

              Ross has taken many of the opportunities to state his case and the details (including avoiding direct answers as I’ve already catalogued)

              …yet you complain that Dowie has, on this one occasion broken her silence?! As before, special pleading, especially as she is not running for office in 2020, whereas he is.

              Also, seeing you first engaged in speculative hypotheticals

              … how do you know Reid didn’t offer JLR a right of reply?

              Unless you know for sure yourself, in which case you may be closer to the matter than you are letting on, and which would explain your concern trolling…

            • Kimbo

               /  2nd August 2020

              No problem. What “my churches” have to do with anything relevant, I will again leave others to decide, along with your apparent LANCB, and claim of overwhelming victory in the game of pigeon chess.

              But kindly give my regards to Jamie Lee Ross.

          • I winder how many people actually read the guest post in its entirety.

            Stop being so patronising and tiresome.

            Reply
  5. That gig didn’t last long.

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  1st August 2020

      Yes Hootens wet dream of reviving National with his cunning Muller/Kaye ticket was a huge ..FLOP.

      Exceltium will never be a Crosby/Textor….its allabout simplicity….Lynton must be….laughing.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  1st August 2020

        Hooten seems weird to me. I wouldn’t trust him or rate him.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  1st August 2020

          He just blew his..BIG chance.

          Back to ‘Granny’.

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  1st August 2020

            He has his own business doing PR and hard nosed social media with no holds barred…
            Think Whaleoil style but more finesse….and very very expensive.
            I think he woke and found this own brand would be going down the gurgler with Collins at election time….this way he gets to say next year , that was all after I left…wasn’t that a John Key spin about some of the previous companies he worked for..

            Reply
        • Kimbo

           /  1st August 2020

          Don’t know why people resigning from a position in or around politics after ending up on the wrong side of a coup – Amy Adams was another who changed and then unchanged her mind with the two month rise and fall of Muller – trundle out the sanctimonious twaddle about “spending more time with family”. So you are so bad at planning ahead, Matthew, that you didn’t work out working on the National Party campaign involved lots of commuting between Auckland and Wellington?!

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300071836/matthew-hooton-resigns-as-national-party-staffer

          Reply
  6. Most people will at a glance probably think that is promoting the Greens.

    It’s a curious approach, NZF can hardly be competing with the Greens for the same votes.

    Reply
    • Duker

       /  1st August 2020

      It’s best seen as the ‘handbrake ad’, where NZF promotes itself as needed to counter the Greens…I think it’s aimed at NZF demographics who have swung over to labour

      Reply

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