Open Forum Saturday

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60 Comments

  1. Corky

     /  22nd August 2020

    Brenton Tarrant will receive his lumps next week. Here’s the joke: He’ll receive a sentence that’s par for the course in America for run-of-the-mill murders. Meanwhile security is being beefed up ahead of sentencing. Talk about a the cart before the horse. And will this added security stop a Muslim nutter bent on revenge, or a White Power banger going on another spree? No, it will just mean less people are killed. It fascinates me folk think this terrorist nonsense is all behind us now that Covid has struck. Like rust, ideologies never rest.

    Reply
    • Patzcuaro

       /  22nd August 2020

      I took me a while to remember who he was, you on the other hand seem to be glorifying his name.

      Reply
      • Corky

         /  22nd August 2020

        As a matter of fact I haven’t thought much about him since going over footage of his crime and and trying to understand his viewpoint. The only thing that has stood out about him since his crime is the loss of his muscle mass leaving a lttle weasle of a man.

        How you come to the conclusion I’m glorifying him is beyond me. Does the same apply to media who have reported he is due to be sentenced next week?

        Reply
        • I thought that it was illegal to download or pass on the video of the massacre. I can’t imagine wanting to actually see this; it’s the ultimate invasion of the victims’ privacy. These are real people, not actors or a video game, and they died unspeakable deaths. One was three years old.

          Reply
          • Duker

             /  22nd August 2020

            “trying to understand his viewpoint.”
            Code for …..Im a [broken vessel] like him.

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  22nd August 2020

              No, it’s code for understanding all factors, people and situations that surround me. Ever wonder why you can’t predict anything? It’s because you look too much in one direction without ever seeing anything…including the direction you are looking in.

              You are an ideologically Muppet. Wind you up and it’s, yes, Jacinda; no Jacinda and three bags empty, Jacinda.😏

            • Corky

               /  22nd August 2020

              *Ideological.

    • Fewer people, not less.

      One can’t be in prison for more than one life sentence. There’s a limit to what can be done.

      Reply
  2. artcroft

     /  22nd August 2020

    “No, it will just mean less people are killed.” Yeah, I’m sick and tired of less people being killed. Kill more people I say.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  22nd August 2020

      I would rather have our security forces deployed elsewhere so no people are killed. I would rather our politicians make wise choices so problems do not arise in the first instant.

      Do you have catcus thorns in your chaps this morning, Arty?

      Reply
      • Fight4nz

         /  22nd August 2020

        “ Do you have catcus thorns in your chaps this morning, Arty?”

        Deflection. Personal attack.

        “The sly ways of a” ..fascist.

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  22nd August 2020

          No, it’s not. If Arty wants to play sacasm, I can play as well. If Arty wants a discussion… I can do that also. You have just jumped in for cheap point scoring.

          Reply
      • duperez

         /  22nd August 2020

        So you want our security forces deployed so ‘Muslim nutters’ and ‘White Power bangers’ don’t go on killing sprees.

        You want politicians making ‘wise choices’ so problems don’t arise.

        I’m trying to work out how different deployment of security forces and what decisions by politicians would have prevented the Christchurch massacre.

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  22nd August 2020

          Let’s take some examples:

          If proper police vetting had taken place Tarrant wouldn’t have had a gun license. Not being connected, Tarrant would have had a problem obtaining a semi in NZ.

          If politicians had decided in the early 2000’s, when it was becoming apparent Islam was infested with pockets of fanaticism, that no more Muslims would be allowed in the country, things may have been different. Tarrant having known of such a law in NZ, MAY have had no desire to kill Muslims. He MAY have just settled on promoting a similar law in Australia, or at worst beating a Muslim up in the street. Who knows?

          I would want our security forces seconded to other Western nations should the need arise to root out fanaticism. I would want a special unit set up to monitor Muslims in NZ, and especially the organisations they belong to.( you know, like my suggestion for a special organisation to take over Covid logistics). Some are funded by fanatical Islamic sects

          The lasting legacy of Tarrant, will not be his crime. It will be that gormless wonders now believe Islam is incapable of perpetrating terrorism in NZ, so we have now let down our guard.Yep, Paddy Gower walking aimlessly down the street with his gob wide open in a state of disbelief after the Christchurch mosque attack comes to mind as I writes this.

          Reply
          • NOEL

             /  22nd August 2020

            If the Gummit had adopted the recommendation of the firearms review he would not have access to a semi or large magazines.
            Not in the TORs for the RC. No surprises there.

            Reply
            • The idea that the Muslims somehow caused the massacre by being here is the sickest example of victim blaming imaginable.

              THEY were not the ones who committed this act of terrorism. They were the victims.

              Refusing them entry is akin to refusing Irish people entry because of the IRA or Americans because so many Americans commit mass murders.

              If any of our Muslims were going to commit terrorism here, they would have done so by now.

            • Duker

               /  22nd August 2020

              “If the Gummit had adopted the recommendation of the firearms review he would not have access to a semi or large magazines.”

              Here’s Paula Bennett, Police minister, response to Parliament Committee firearms review
              “The committee made 20 recommendations. After careful consideration I’ve accepted seven, rejected 12, and recommended one proceed with changes,” Mrs Bennett says.

              In other words most went into wastepaper bin but she added one of her own as a craven kowtow to the gun owners
              ““I’m also proposing a Ministerial direction to the Police to require consultation with the firearms community when considering changes to the Arms Act and the interpretation of it.
              It means give them a lock on any new ‘interpretations’ Luckily 3 months later she was out of government.
              https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/government-response-firearms-select-committee-report

              I bet Noel didnt think it was Bennett who threw them out

            • Corky

               /  22nd August 2020

              Spinning again, Duker. The problem..in this case, was with the police as I understand it. No matter the legislation, police had a vetting process to administer. They failed.

            • Duker

               /  22nd August 2020

              What spin ?
              The committee wanted greater restrictions , she threw them in bin and gave the ‘industry’ a lock on any new changes.
              Tarrants license approval was a technical breach , as if they said no to his ‘online friends’, he would have just asked the people the people at the local gun club who knew him

              “When Brenton Tarrant turned up to the Bruce Rifle Club south of Dunedin he seemed like any other gun enthusiast.
              His handling of firearms was good and he followed all the rules.
              Today, members of the club are in shock as news that the man at the centre of the Christchurch mosque terrorist attacks was one of its members.
              “Brenton just presented as a regular guy…. We scrutinise our members obviously, but in relation to the basic rules of the arms code and how they handle firearms and follow the rules. We do not scrutinise them to assess if they are white supremacist nationalists because as far as we knew, we didn’t have those types in NZ,” says Scott Williams, club vice-president.

              Tarrant joined the club in early 2018 ..

            • Corky

               /  22nd August 2020

              Do you have a comprehension problem? The problem lay with the police.
              What the fugg has what the gun club thought about him have to do with
              him being vetted by the police?

          • duperez

             /  22nd August 2020

            “If proper police vetting had taken place Tarrant wouldn’t have had a gun license.”

            So the regime was there to prevent him getting a licence but human error or incompetence meant that safeguard was not effective.

            How will any regime you would have in place ensure there was no human error or incompetence?

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  22nd August 2020

              ”How will any regime you would have in place ensure there was no human error or incompetence?”

              You are joking right?

            • duperez

               /  22nd August 2020

              Um …. what? You are joking right? You say these things about someone in the police stuffing up. You suggest that whoever was running things didn’t do a good job.

              You seem to imply that by some click of the fingers or magic, every single member of the police would do the job properly, not stuff up, there would not be any ‘human error.’

              At least you didn’t argue your notion of banning Muslims coming into the country from the early 2000s.

            • Corky

               /  22nd August 2020

              ”How will any regime you would have in place ensure there was no human error or incompetence?”

              My point was, how can any system be fail proof? That said the police were very lax.

            • Blazer

               /  22nd August 2020

              ‘ how come the majority in Northern Ireland wanted to remain British?’

              Such false equivalence…..how come the majority of Vietnamese are quite happy being part of a united Vietnam,that resisted U.S attempts to bestow democracy and freedom…upon…them?

          • duperez

             /  22nd August 2020

            “If politicians had decided in the early 2000’s, when it was becoming apparent Islam was infested with pockets of fanaticism, that no more Muslims would be allowed in the country, things may have been different.”

            So from the early 2000’s no Muslims should have been allowed into the country?

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  22nd August 2020

              Correct…not one. Seems like common sense to me. If you can’t identify the fanatics amongst the group they reside in…you ban the group, as unfair as that is. When it comes to state security nothing is out of the question.

              Oh, I forgot, you are a Lefty. That means Western culture and state security aren’t high on your agenda.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  22nd August 2020

              How do you know that no IRA members came to NZ ? The odds are that some did. I don’t know if the number of deaths by Islamic terrorists ever caught up to the total of IRA ones.

              No. 10 had a solid steel door put in place (it takes 6 or 8 men to lift it when it’s taken down and put back up) because the IRA bombed it.

              My mother and her sister had the back door of the holiday house blown in when the IRA assassinated Lord Mountbatten. My mother and stepfather had to beat a hasty retreat when bullets began flying around them on one trip back home to Ulster !

              The idea of banning members of a religion because a minority who are not even the same race as the immigrants or refugees is insane and illogical.

            • Number of deaths caused by Islamic terrorists in England, I mean.

            • duperez

               /  22nd August 2020

              Do I need to point out the ridiculousness of your thinking?

              White people, Europeans, were let into the country. Check the list out:

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=12357327

              How many mass murders perpetrated by Muslims in New Zealand? So they were here minding their own business, we let in an Australian and look what happened.

              To quote you: “If you can’t identify the fanatics amongst the group they reside in…you ban the group, as unfair as that is. When it comes to state security nothing is out of the question.”

              No Australians should be allowed in. Or are you going to argue that since they were Muslims they deserved to be shot? Or the fact they were here made them legitimate targets?

            • duperez

               /  22nd August 2020

              Wrong link. I’d just been checking on an America lunatic looking for grounds to ban all Americans coming in.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_New_Zealand

            • Blazer

               /  22nd August 2020

              You make it sound like the IRA were the the terrorists.

            • The IRA were terrorists.

              By Corky’s logic, we should ban English people because one of NZ’s worst mass murderers was English.

              Americans haven’t done any here, but the US has had fewer days without them than with them and their schools are built to foil shootings. Should we allow people from the US to come here, given the track record ?

            • Corky

               /  22nd August 2020

              ”How many mass murders perpetrated by Muslims in New Zealand? So they were here minding their own business, we let in an Australian and look what happened.”

              That paragraph means you are either trolling or aren’t thinking clearly.

              How many Aussies have declared war on NZ( the West?), apart from the ones who are pissed? How many belong to organizations funded by radicle sects?

              Let’s hear it from a bog standard Muslim as to how they think.

              BTW…I’m over you. I won’t be engaging you again. Your willful ignorance is becoming annoying. This clip is very short.

            • Blazer

               /  22nd August 2020

              I thought the IRA were fighting to free their country from the English occupiers!

            • duperez

               /  22nd August 2020

              At least now I know I can say what I like and you won’t respond. A good way out when there is no sensible rational argument.

              Some Muslims saying something somewhere means you would not have allowed any Muslims into the country after the early 2000s.

              Your reason is that some Muslims somewhere “declared war on NZ” ( the West?)

              Your logic has it that if some f’wit spouts some garbage all people connected with that person are not to be trusted. I won’t ask you what religion you are because you won’t answer. It’s just that I want to condemn each and every single one of them and attribute to them any maladies I can imagine onto you.

              When one of our kids was at intermediate school they were in a debating team and it was always interesting to go along and observe the logic and philosophy activities they were involved in to develop and practice thinking skills. Just on this page you have offered a veritable forest of material that 11-13 kids would loved to have got their teeth into.😊

            • Kimbo

               /  22nd August 2020

              If the IRA were allegedly fighting to free their country from English (sic) occupiers, how come the majority in Northern Ireland wanted to remain British?

              Best to stick to the history of your own inter-tribal conflicts, and leave it to us Ngati Irish and Ngati Scottish (Ulster Hapuna) to tell the contradicting accounts of our disputes as we record it, Blazer.

              But if it is of any value, the descendants of the original planters were living in Northern Ireland a lot longer than many I will in Aotearoa had possession of their rohe.

            • Kimbo

               /  22nd August 2020

              Didn’t Benyamin Netanyahu say NZ was at war with Israel because we co-sponsored UNSC 2334? And he is a head of state…

              But no, it is not what critics, adherents, or “experts” say what Islam is, nor what “true” Muslims must and do believe and must and will do that is a valid test of exclusion from migration.

              Instead it is what individual people are likely to do that counts. That should be the basis of any valid and reasonable security-risk test.

            • Kimbo, surely you know that the Loyalists who want/ed Ulster to remain part of Britain are Protestants ? There was a saying ‘Home Rule, Rome Rule’ and even England was better than that, they reasoned.

              I doubt if many Catholics did or do, and I doubt if there are many Protestant IRA members (or Catholic Orange Lodge members)

              My parents and stepfather were Ulster Protestants and I grew up knowing what it was like there.

            • Blazer

               /  22nd August 2020

              how come the majority in Northern Ireland wanted to remain British?’

              Such false equivalence…..how come the majority of Vietnamese are quite happy being part of a united Vietnam,that resisted U.S attempts to bestow democracy and freedom…upon…them?

            • Kimbo

               /  22nd August 2020

              I thought that was implied.

              Irrespective of being Protestant, and the non-Irish origin of their migrant ancestors over 300 years before, they were the majority in Northern Ireland, and they wanted to remain British subjects. Including and especially when others without a mandate were purporting to “free” them.

              Hence, again contra Blazer, there was no English (more accurately British) occupation of their Northern Irish country.

            • Kimbo

               /  22nd August 2020

              Reasons don’t ultimately count once the verdict of the ballot box has been delivered in our system of government. And Northern Ireland’s too.

              But good to see a proponent of leftist radical-chic was who alleged elsewhere today that “Big Brother is alive and well in the West” has a natural contempt for liberal democracy. And thinks there is some sort of worthwhile comparison between the Marxist-Leninist North Vietnamese, the essentially totalitarian South Vietnamese with no history or tradition of democracy…and the British protecting their own subjects.

            • Blazer

               /  22nd August 2020

              I see so you have England,Ireland and Northern Ireland….and quote the ‘majority’…..when did a majority mean anything?

              Vietnam WAS one country.
              Sth Vietnam was backed by the U.S…thought you might know that…it was the classic confrontation…the Commies are going to ..get you.

              Btw does democracy mean the majority?

            • Kimbo

               /  22nd August 2020

              Don’t understand your first question. But I’ll correct yet again the misnomer you are implying. The majority of the people of Northern Ireland wanted to remain British subjects within the United Kingdom. Ergo, no, they did not view the IRA as fighting for their “freedom from English/British occupation. Instead they regarded them as terrorists. You seem to think otherwise. So…why? Because liberal democracy hasn’t always/mostly the results you want. Yes, well most of us feel the same and are content to retain the system as the best compared to all the other alternatives. And I haven’t seen anything compelling from you to persuade me otherwise…

              Indeed, Vietnam was historically one country and almost certainly should have stayed that way after the French bugged out in the mid-1950s. And as per the Pentagon Papers, right from the beginning (after the Japanese left in 1945 in fact), the US got most of its analysis and subsequent actions wrong. Like assuming they could prop up an anti-Communist regime (Kennedy approved the assassination of Diem in 1963), that the domino-theory would likely occur, and after the Fall of the Berlin Wall the discovery that world communism was not the monolith they had assumed.

              Or are you implying that because liberal democracies like the US (or the UK, or NZ) sometimes get things wrong (as all human systems do!), that somehow validates the radical left alternatives? Good luck with that argument, and again, despite your enthusiasm in repeatedly posting to that effect, I’ve seen you martial little evidence, compelling or otherwise.

              No, democracy means more than a majority. Regular and free elections, an independent judiciary, a free press, and freedom of thought, speech and lawful action are included but are not exhaustive.

              But the election of a representative government according to the majority is an essential feature, be it as with FPP in electorates as in the UK, FPP in the electoral college in the USA, the PV/FPP system in Australia, or MMP as in New Zealand.

              So…where are you going with that question? That the will of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland who refused “liberation” and remained part of the UK was somehow undemocratic, unjust, or some other morally or politically deficient reason? If so, let’s see you make the case…

            • Kimbo

               /  22nd August 2020

              Or is it just the usual mentally-dull dialectic analysis that because the British were the existing regime in Northern Ireland, ergo they were the unjust hegemony, whereas the IRA were automatically the liberators in the struggle on behalf of the marginalised oppressed?

              Different day, same record.

            • Blazer

               /  22nd August 2020

              ‘Irrespective of being Protestant, and the non-Irish origin of their migrant ancestors over 300 years before, they were the majority in Northern Ireland, and they wanted to remain British subjects.’

              (Israelis want to remain Israeli subjects too….!)


              sometimes get things wrong (as all human systems do!), that somehow validates the radical left alternatives? ‘

              (Nothing like a bit of collateral damage eh!)

              These 2 paragraphs pretty much sum up your flaccid ‘argument’…Kimbo.

              As for quoting Netanyahoo…..there is no hope for you !

            • Kimbo

               /  22nd August 2020

              Or how about this one for discerning the so-what? of your talking points and questions:

              If it can be argued that the descendants of migrants from 300 years before could be effectively disenfranchised in Northern Ireland on the basis that they were nothing more than British colonists and occupiers

              …then the same would hold true for Pakeha/European inhabitants of Aotearoa?

              If so, sorry, B, but you’ll have to do better than that in asserting and exercising tino rangatiratanga that “frees” me to a political system not of my own will and choosing. And I can guarantee there will be some 4.99 million right behind me.

            • Kimbo

               /  22nd August 2020

              Sorry, you seem to think that I quoted Netanyahu approvingly, or that I am supportive of Israeli conquest and annexation by increment and stealth of the West Bank, or their continual blocking of a Palestinian state.

              Neither is so, and you need to work on your comprehension skills. But triple word score for the use of “collateral” and “flaccid”, even though you failed to make the case IMHO. Indeed, you’ve quoted “collateral damage” out of its Vietnam War context because, as I argued, the US (and Australia and NZ!) had little sound moral or political reasons to be fighting in there at all!

              So to be clear, you think Western liberal democracy is a sham, and the radical left alternatives are more just and workable? Just in all your selective quoting of my answers, I note you fail to show sufficient guts and thought to put what you believe up for examination…

            • Blazer

               /  23rd August 2020

              @Kimbo…your ‘longbow’ method of debate has so many contradictions and riders, that frequently you appear to be unable to grasp your own….dysfunction.

          • Duker

             /  22nd August 2020

            if the police said you pass but theres a problem with your ‘person who know you’ tick box… he would have said ‘ I can come up with someone else ‘
            Its like getting a WoF, when your car is OK but theres a minor problem with one item, you just go out an fix it, come back for restest and PASS !
            he would have got one eventually as you dont seem to realise …
            HE WAS VERY SINGLE MINDED ABOUT WHAT HE WANTED THE GUNS FOR…

            Reply
  3. Where’s our mate Gezza .. missing his posts

    Reply
  4. Corky

     /  22nd August 2020

    Man, just watched the 2011 film,”Contagion.” It’s almost a a replica of what’s happening with Covid. It would not suprise me if the behind the scenes parts of this film are also tracking true with Covid.

    Reply

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