Advance party to where?

The Advance Party may be the opposite of an advance in New Zealand politics. Their main aim seems to be to advance as many crazy conspiracy theories as possible.

But they have attracted thousands of followers, as evidenced by an anti-Covid rally in Auckland yesterday, which defied the level 2.5 restrictions currently in place in Auckland.

RNZ: Advance Party and crowd rallies against Covid-19 restrictions and lockdowns

A crowd of a few thousand packed in Auckland’s Aotea Square this afternoon, at the “National Rally for Freedom”, organised by Advance Party co-leaders, Jami Lee Ross and Billy Te Kahika.

There was little social distancing and few people in the crowd wearing masks.

When the rally was finished, the large group continued its protest down Auckland’s Queen Street before returning to Aotea Square.

There were a number of police present at the rally; they refused to comment when approached by RNZ and asked whether there were any concerns about social distancing given the size of the crowd.

In a statement to RNZ later, police said with today’s event it was “possible that attempts to enforce Alert Level restrictions would have caused tension in an otherwise peaceful protest, without being effective in managing physical distancing of participants”.

That pretty much gives any protesters a green light to do what they like regardless of lockdown laws and rules.

It is disgraceful that a current Member of Parliament be blatantly behind breaking the law, but Ross has disgraced himself a number of times already so this is just another step downwards for him. His chances of being re-elected in Botany are miniscule so he seems to be hoping Te Kahika’s popularity will get him back into Parliament.

But how popular? Several thousand at a rally is a significant number, and there will be more supporters around the country, but they would need somewhere around 150,000 votes to make the 5% threshold (last election ACT got 13,075 votes for just 0.5% and Greens got 162,443 votes for 6.27%).

Even if they made history and the threshold, their influence in Parliament would likely be small. Labour would be extremely unlikely to do a coalition or confidence and supply deal with Advance NZ, and Advance NZ would be hugely hypocritical to even attempt to work with Labour.

Somme of their prominent COVID-19 Response Policy but it is laced with highly questionable claims. Their opening paragraph:

The COVID-19 virus has led nations around the world to take radical action to prevent its spread. In New Zealand, the Labour government has adopted an approach of eradication at any cost. That strategy has failed.

They are basically saying that “nations around the world” are wrong and they are right with untested claims.

The approach here hasn’t been “at any cost”, and it has been relatively successful both health-wise and economically so far.

In the false hope of eradicating the virus, we now face Labour’s Second Wave of Lockdowns. There is no end in sight for the current lockdown or for ending COVID-19 restrictions at lower levels. Labour’s plan is for years of rolling lockdowns.

I haven’t seen Labour state anything like that. Most countries including New Zealand are hoping that a vaccine will be available in the next year or so.

As new information is learned about COVID-19, it is becoming increasingly apparent that the fatality rate of the virus is considerably lower than first predicted. In the early stages of COVID-19 entering New Zealand, fear spread with many believing mass deaths would take place.

First predictions were widely variable based on limited information and based on a range of approaches.

Predictions where that doing nothing to limit Covid, as Advance NZ seem to be promoting, would likely

Initial predictions of death have not materialised around the world, and COVID-19’s  case fatality rate is not unlike that of seasonal influenza. Flu or colds have never been eradicated, and attempts to do so have proved futile. The WHO and GAVI are predicting a similar situation for COVID-19, and it looks like we will have to learn to live with it and find ways to protect our most vulnerable without shutting down society.  (https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/could-covid-19-ever-be-eradicated)

That’s an odd claim considering what is prominent on the gavi.org home page:

#VaccinesWork

Vaccines are one of the most successful and cost-effective health investments in history with wider benefits that accrue across a lifetime.

Keep informed about the latest topics in global health, including top stories related to the ongoing coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak.

Also from Gavi: How COVID–19 is leading to famine and a ‘hunger pandemic’

COVID-19 has infected more than 27 million people, killing nearly 900,000 of them. As well as this devastating impact on people’s lives and health, there has been significant collateral damage from the pandemic – especially hunger and malnutrition, putting the lives of millions more at risk.

10 September 2020

That seems to be the opposite of what Advance NZ claim and promote. They also claim:

The reasonable question to ask now is – what long -term economic, social, and health costs will New Zealanders face…

That is a reasonable question to ask….

…in a futile effort to eradicate COVID-19 – a virus we now know we can manage as a nation without losing considerable freedoms?

…but it is followed by a claim that they can’t know. They don’t cite any examples anywhere in the world where Covid has been managed without losing any freedoms.

From their Policy in Brief:

Implement a risk-based approach where vulnerable citizens are protected and supported, but all others are free to continue daily life.

By segregating ‘vulnerable citizens’ from ‘all others’? That doesn’t sound like freedom for either group.

Their website tries to sound reasonable and considered but is littered with highly questionable claims and has major flaws in thinking.

Advance NZ is unlikely to make the MMP cut, and even if they did they would unlikely have much if any influence on policy.

But by promoting defiance of lockdown rules they are actually putting the rest of us at risk of more spread of Covid, and more lockdowns.

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64 Comments

  1. duperez

     /  13th September 2020

    They clearly are a niche party. Some clearly have a need for them. So much of what I’ve read about them shows a certain kind of stupid.

    There’s a special quality in J-L Ross being involved in a party funds case in court when the story last week with money in shoeboxes under beds with seemingly Mickey Mouse practices with party finances in his latest party fling.

    Reply
    • Jack

       /  13th September 2020

      I see all this as spiritual searching gone wrong. ‘Finding God’ is one thing but Jesus cults soon swallow up individuals by adding works to salvation. I think this sort of carry on is sad. They say they’re Christians but they’re giving Church a bad name.
      Just another cult slide to watch as individuals get spewed out the bottom.

      At the bottom is where the Christian has a decision to make – do I get back on the ladder, or do I run for my life?

      Reply
      • Why DO you say ‘Church’ as if it was a proper name ? It ISN’T. There is NO organisation called Church. It’s a church or the church.

        Reply
  2. Griff.

     /  13th September 2020

    “A sovereign citizen, a creationist, an anti-vaxxer, and a conspiracy theorist walk into a bar. He orders a drink.”‘

    Crank magnetism is the condition where people become attracted to multiple crank ideas at the same time. Crank magnetism also denotes the tendency — even for otherwise “lone issue” cranks — to accumulate more crank beliefs over time. You know that old saying about not being so open-minded that your brain falls out? People with crank magnetism didn’t pay attention to that. Crank magnetism is an important stepping stone on the path towards being wrong all of the time.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crank_magnetism

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  13th September 2020

      Well, by your definition, I suffer from crank magnetism. A name created by physiologist and blogger Mark Hoofnagle.

      Those in the know will know why tears of mirth are rolling down my face. A physiologist..LOL!

      Some of these crank beliefs I have give in an advantage in most aspects of my life.

      However, crank beliefs not based on personal reasearch are crank beliefs. And most of these folk are cranks. They are the same as people who swallow what the media, politicians and scientists say as gospel.

      Reply
      • Griff.

         /  13th September 2020

        Fractal wrongness

        ”You are not just wrong. You are wrong at every conceivable level of resolution. Zooming in on any part of your worldview finds beliefs exactly as wrong as your entire worldview.
        — Tatarize[1]

        Fractal wrongness is the state of being wrong at every conceivable scale of resolution. That is, from a distance, a fractally wrong person’s worldview is incorrect; and furthermore, if you zoom in on any small part of that person’s worldview, that part is just as wrong as the whole worldview.

        The condition of crank magnetism is a gateway into the wonderful world of fractal wrongness, as well as a relatively early warning sign of the risk of impending fractal wrongness.

        The term “fractal wrongness” may also be used to refer to someone who is consistently wrong on nearly everything they predict or claim. Repeatedly failing predictions is one of the best ways of revealing fractal wrongness, because while an idiotic worldview may work in someone’s head, it can be seen failing when actually put to the test. Hilariously, people who are consistently wrong tend to be quite confident in their position while championing it.

        Fractally wrong people are often immune to the stopped clock rule because they are not exactly stopped clocks. More like clocks losing a random number of seconds a day, in the wrong time zone of the wrong planet, in the wrong solar system.

        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fractal_wrongness

        Reply
        • Jack

           /  13th September 2020

          Thanks for that Griff. Funny and familiar territory to me.
          Another way to describe crank magnetism is when a conscientious person constantly has to manage their right wrong decisions.
          It’s an awful pathway for any God fearing person. They’re in that place because of wanting to belong and to serve, to warn and to love by demanding freedom for all. And they’re there because they’re not free to carry their crosses – if they try, leadership will abuse them.

          Always find myself wanting to defend Mr Ross. Consider that he grew up fatherless. All through the fiascos he finds himself in he displays strong character – he’s simply in with an unhelpful Jesus cult. Hopefully his wife is keeping her head.

          It’s a sad state of affairs when we want to defend the sanity of our politicians. I’d rather be in a position to say nothing, just quietly being aware that our leaders are carrying their crosses.

          “Hilariously, people who are consistently wrong tend to be quite confident in their position while championing it.”
          That’s a mean view. I doubt Mr Te Kahika and co feel confident. They need sympathy and tolerance and a listening ear. Even gratitude – as Mr H says, others not from his group are latching on for expressing their thoughts about freedom too.

          Some people are so open minded their brains fall out. Why must onlookers be so close minded and superior as to suppose they themselves could never suffer from crankiness? Or victim-hood?

          None of us think we could ever succumb to living the inside lie

          Reply
        • Corky

           /  13th September 2020

          Interesting.

          Wiki:

          ”The term “fractal wrongness” may also be used to refer to someone who is consistently wrong on nearly everything they predict or claim.”

          Well, that ain’t me.

          ”You are not just wrong. You are wrong at every conceivable level of resolution. Zooming in on any part of your worldview finds beliefs exactly as wrong as your entire worldview.”

          That must mean we are all nuts. We live in a holographical universe. That means everything is mutable ( as humanely possible)…if your belief system is strong enough.
          In metaphysics, a metaphysician must examine all his belief systems because his beliefs create his life ( Sir Bob Jones: wealth is a state of mind). The problem is mete physicians realised changing belief systems can take time and is onerous.
          So he compensates for his beliefs by bypassing them and creating what he wants by talking to the universe… you can’t get whacker than that.

          ”The condition of crank magnetism is a gateway into the wonderful world of fractal wrongness.”

          Well, that’s true. Look at some of the wacky beliefs science and medicine once held.

          Take this from the article above:

          ”Vaccines are one of the most successful and cost-effective health investments in history with wider benefits that accrue across a lifetime.”

          The FACTS point to that being true. Diseases that once killed folk by the millions disappeared once vaccinations commenced. BUT…people are continuing to become sicker. They are living longer..but in a decrepit condition. Many people who get vaccinated never get the disease the vaccination stops, but they get a host of other life long symptoms.

          And lets not forget we are fighting Covid using the quack beliefs that viruses are alive.
          Science cannot even definitively explain what a virus is. Is this Fractal Wrongness?

          Bottom line is Wiki is full of labels..but short on doings.

          Have you any original thoughts, Griff?

          Reply
          • Kimbo

             /  13th September 2020

            Yeah. A treasury official analysing at the same time the economic and resulting mortality effects of indefinite lockdowns and exclaiming, “WTF!!!” doesn’t attract the same coverage or celebrity status. Must be the lack of pink hair.

            And no, for the record, Siouxsie Wiles should be able dye her hair any colour she wants, or shave it off or glue it back on to her heart’s content with no diminishing of her professional reputation. Don’t care.

            Strange world that I have to give that caveat, or repeat, as per yesterday that irrespective of the identity or the cause, it is a very troubling state of affairs when public servants of any sort achieve celebrity status such that their face is plastered over t shirts and t towels.

            Reply
      • Fight4nz

         /  13th September 2020

        “ They are the same as people who swallow what the media, politicians and scientists say as gospel.”
        Qe??
        They just spent their day marching and screaming the exact opposite of those people. That they know more than the highly intelligent, experienced experts in their field using firsthand empirical evidence.

        Reply
    • Kimbo

       /  13th September 2020

      Hey, Griff.

      I’ve got a post grad degree in Qual Research not that that says much about me, because I’ve met much smarter and wiser people than me with no letters after their name. But one thing it means personally is, yeah, sure, I endorse, support and am usually guided by the scientific consensus, scholarly peer review, and all the other benefits that the scientific method has produced. For example, when I’ve had cancer treatment over the last few years, I didn’t bother pursuing the advice of well-meaning medically-untrained friends pushing quack theories that because carcinoma tumours are high in sugar, if you cut sugar out of your diet you will starve them. Or that, on balance, chemo is not a good option compared to naturalistic alternatives.

      But I’m mindful that the scientific consensus, scholarly peer review and even what gets researched and tested and why are all practised by finite and very fallible human beings.

      Here’s the thing. I agree Corky is likely wrong, very wrong on his anti vax views. Same with those who believe in the six day creation some 6,000 years ago of a flat disc earth/metal dome sky universe as per my friend I’ve sometimes discussed with you.

      But taking a step back, and irrespective of the particular issue, what place, if any, do you give to Schopenhauer’s valuable and insightful advice,

      “Truth goes through three stages. First it is ridiculed, then it is violently opposed, and finally it is accepted as self-evident truth”

      …when dismissing views that are outside of the current orthodoxy/plausibility structure? Because if there is one thing I have seen, scientists and researchers are just as susceptible, maybe even more so, to group think, peer pressure and intellectual conformity than any other collection of people.

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  13th September 2020

        Good post Kimbo…alot of solid commonsense there.

        Peer group conformity is a powerful force.

        Reply
      • Griff.

         /  13th September 2020

        Hey kimbo
        Wrong comes in a number of levels.
        Before Newton we had many ideas about what we know call physics that were very wrong.
        Newton was wrong but his ideas still work well enough that they are still useful in engineering.
        Einstein and his models of the physical world are less wrong but it is still not 100% correct Einsteins theory’s can still be shown not to work in all cases hence why Hawking radiation theory is held in such high regard.

        Encapsulated by all models of the world that we have are wrong but some are useful .

        Corky even rejects maths proofs. He has posted on here he has a foolproof system to predict the generation of seven random numbers and this gives him a reliable income . Maths tells us such an idea is not even wrong.
        Maths unlike science is based on poof not models. Rejecting such mathematical proof tells us Corky meets the criteria for being Fractually wrong rather than just habituating the fuzzy extremes that can exist in science .

        Oh and Kimbo philosophy is not a hard science.
        Philosophy a social science the results depend on the philosophers personal experience not measurable objective reality.

        Reply
        • Griff.

           /  13th September 2020

          Kimbo
          I read a comment that you had medical issues quite a while ago.
          Glad you have your cancer under control.

          Reply
          • Kimbo

             /  13th September 2020

            Cheers. Yep, all good at present (knock on wood/D.V.)

            …and was just mentioning it here to illustrate the point that you can put your money and your life in the hands of peer-reviewed science…or not. 🙂

            Reply
            • Griff.

               /  13th September 2020

              Forgive me for intruding.
              I have long waited for the opportunity to offer support and hope .

            • Kimbo

               /  13th September 2020

              No intrusion at all, Griff, especially as I put it out there in the public domain in the first place, and I thank you for your kind words.

          • I am glad, too.

            I hadn’t heard the sugar theory before, I must say. One doesn’t have to be a specialist to see the flaw in that one.

            Reply
      • Kimbo

         /  13th September 2020

        Thanks, but not sure you directly addressed Schopenhauer’s observation. Indeed, I’m sure you haven’t. Care to have another go?

        And not sure what the mention of philosophy had to do with anything directly relevant. But just for the record, you can’t practice science, whether hard or soft without metaphysics although it is amusing to watch hardcore logical positivists try. And, no, I’m giving no direct place to the metaphysical discipline of theology in this matter. Which was the sphere of my undergrad studies, btw, not the post grad that I mentioned…if that is what you were implying.

        Reply
        • Griff.

           /  13th September 2020

          kimbo
          E = mc^2 does not care for your metaphysical ideas.
          I did not mention God or your Theology just your reliance on Philosophy.

          You are still owed this comment.
          Popper was a philosopher his ideas on the philosophy of science are just as much a social construct as any other philosophers ideas. An alien life from could construct a working philosophy far outside of what we have and be just as right or wrong in their own case . Sci fi has explored this idea in much detail over decades .However to be advanced enough to have a functioning understanding of physics hence able to communicate back they would still need to recognize math proofs and objective reality.
          This is why our feeble attempts to communicate with life outside of our world rely on such concepts.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_extraterrestrial_intelligence
          Philosophy can offer insights to the human condition but that is all it really is.
          Philosophy does not and can not trump reality.

          Reply
          • Kimbo

             /  13th September 2020

            Yeah, sure. With respect to Corky the likelihood that he – or me for that matter – will come up with an amazing discovery that will radically upend a major component of the current scientific consensus is….basically nil. But it can and does happen.

            Hence, you have still not directly addressed Schopenhauer. Reminds me of the time I once stumped into my Masters supervisor’s office after trying to help my wife complete an assignment in her unfdergrad studies in an entirely different discipline. I moaned to him, “you know, I’ve just figured out that for the three years of undergrad, what they are primarily attempting to do is inculcate the disciple of, “answer the question, answer the question, answer the question”. To which he replied with a deadpan expression, “And post grad too!” 😉

            Reply
          • Kimbo

             /  13th September 2020

            Oh, yes and again, even though it not primarily what I was addressing, but without philosophy (including and especially epistemology) you cannot begin to discern “reality”. Be it provisional, probable or otherwise.

            And there is a case to be made, as per Corky below, that mathematics is a social construct too:

            Blackadder: Right Baldrick, let’s try again, shall we? This is called adding. [gestures to the beans on the table] If I have two beans, and then I add two more, what do I have?
            Baldrick: Some beans.
            Blackadder: [smiles, impatiently] Yesss… and no. Let’s try again, shall we? I have two beans, then I add two more beans. What does that make?
            Baldrick: A very small casserole.
            Blackadder: Baldrick. The ape-creatures of the Indus have mastered this. Now try again. [helps him count] One, two, three… four. So, how many are there?
            Baldrick: Three.
            Blackadder: What?
            Baldrick: And that one.
            Blackadder: Three… and that one. [waves the fourth bean in front of Baldrick’s face] So if I add the three to that one, what will I have?!
            Baldrick: Oh! Some beans.
            Blackadder: [pause] Yes. To you, Baldrick, the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people, wasn’t it?

            Reply
            • Griff.

               /  13th September 2020

              No Kimbo.
              Math deals with proof science deals with probability.
              binary 1+1 = 10 on all occasions in our universe.
              Has since the moment after the big bang and will until time itself dies.
              If you believe Corky I have a nice harbour bridge you might be interested in purchasing very cheaply.

            • Kimbo

               /  13th September 2020

              Ok, see now you are being dogmatic and giving no room whatsoever to the possibility, as per Schopenhauer that maybe, just maybe it ain’t necessarily so.

              And either way, the problem that logical positivists, whether mathematicians or scientists of other disciplines be they “hard” or “soft” have is that, without fallible human cognition, “reality” whatever it is just sits there undiscovered, unrecognised or misconceived. The old “if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear, does it make a sound” dilemma.

              Hence, we loop around once more to Schopenhauer’s…let’s call it a “rule of thumb” concerning unchangeable human nature.

      • Corky

         /  13th September 2020

        ”Corky even rejects maths proofs. He has posted on here he has a foolproof system to predict the generation of seven random numbers and this gives him a reliable income . Maths tells us such an idea is not even wrong.”

        Please don’t tell lies. I have never stated that. You cannot predict any lotto draw.

        My system isn’t full proof. I have a null draw roughly once every three months where I lose money. I don’t have the mathematical skills to understand why that is. I don’t need such skills anyway because the rest of the time I’m winning by taking money off people who rely on luck because maths apparently tells us what I do is impossible…so luck is their only alternative.

        By the way are you sure maths in infallible? Are you sure luck can’t be beckoned?

        Reply
  3. Fight4nz

     /  13th September 2020

    I assume because the rallying cry is “freedom” these people are considered right wing?
    Certainly makes the loony lefty label seem awfully hollow.
    Makes you start to laugh until you realise how sad it is.

    Reply
  4. John J Harrison

     /  13th September 2020

    The Advance Party is run by Fruit – Loops, for Fruit – Loops.
    I do not believe that the 2,000 demonstrating were all supporters of the party or its leaders.
    Some were rightly highly pissed off with Ardern’s decree regarding who could operate businesses during her pernicious lock – down and who could not.
    For instance , butchers and green grocers could not but supermarkets could.
    What the demonstration did highlight was that anyone waving the Maori flag were sacred from our laws as too the illegal road blocks on public highways.
    Little wonder our once revered police are now treated as nothing more than an expensive joke by previously law abiding citizens.
    If the current commissioner cannot enforce the law then he should be sacked and replaced by a clone of Gideon Tait.

    Reply
  5. Blazer

     /  13th September 2020

    As a party that attracts …’talent’..National need to be vigilant that more of their members do not join their former front bench colleague at Advance.

    Reply
  6. David

     /  13th September 2020

    If we get no succesful vaccine then segregation of the vulnerable will inevitably become the only path forward.
    The pleasing thing is that 4 of the 9 vaccines in phase 3 trials are Chinese which is just going to be gold for the anti vaxxers. Meanwhile the Democrats and their media allies are outwardly pushing the conspiracy that Trump will force approval through regardless, as dangerous as any fringe anti vaxxer..quite shocking really.

    Reply
    • Fight4nz

       /  13th September 2020

      “ The pleasing thing is that 4 of the 9 vaccines in phase 3 trials are Chinese“
      So you don’t support Trump’s trade war with China?

      Reply
      • Fight4nz

         /  14th September 2020

        Very curious to know what angle the downtickers here are coming from?

        Reply
        • They are the same people who downtick someone being clear of cancer, I suppose.

          Reply
        • Corky

           /  14th September 2020

          Why does it worry you?

          Reply
          • Fight4nz

             /  14th September 2020

            Not a worry to me, but a definitely curious.
            I can’t figure out if this offends pro-Trump or anti-Trump? And why either way?
            Or do they just not like the self contradictory conundrum being pointed out?

            Reply
  7. Reply
    • Jack

       /  13th September 2020

      The problem is easily summed up – Billy is a Christian who needs to escape the clutches of a ‘church’ which does not belong to Church.

      Seventh Day Adventism has in its foundation a lady prophet who was manipulated by Freemasons. Surely Billy could be open minded enough to add this investigation to his list of crank magnetisms

      Reply
      • Jack

         /  13th September 2020

        It’s also strange how he preaches re the worry about one world government, yet the Bible says this will occur. It’s hardly Godly to fight it with nonsense when he knows it’s bound to happen some time or other.

        In a nut shell – Billy is forgetting that Jesus wants to find him doing God’s will when He returns. At this point in time Jesus would find Billy fighting for a faith.

        Reply
      • There is NO such THING as ‘Church’. Why do you not understand that it is not a proper name (unless it’s a person’s surname, of course) ?

        Reply
    • Corky

       /  13th September 2020

      The answer is quite simple…it’s a case of MSG poisoning. Once Billy lays off the Chinese, he will be kapai.

      Reply
      • Jack

         /  13th September 2020

        Downticks for that? You have to wonder at the lack of humour in some people.

        What I find distressing is how DF says he thinks Billy got into this for money. I think that’s awful mean. No one knows Billy’s motives except for himself, entirely. Not even his wife will know in absolute surety. Billy knows, except that his mind is cult fuzzed – ergo he doesn’t know, but that doesn’t give others reason to know for him.

        Comments like DF’s are more likely to make Billy dig his toes in – prolong and aggravate the stupidity. I thought we were wanting to help each other through Covid?

        Reply
        • Jack

           /  13th September 2020

          The rhetoric is slogan-ised – “Let’s claim our freedoms!”

          Can’t argue with that, but I can give my testimony –

          I was a life time in Church, stuck in the grip of cult churches. I know how these things work. There are many Christians in NZ, more than other sort of cult artists like to know. If all Kiwi Christians moved out from the cults we could have strong Church.

          Freedom never needs a slogan. It just needs you to carry your cross – and before the mockery begins, the cross can never be meaningfully slogan-ised any more than your one testimony and legacy can be.

          The irony of Advance NZ is that they are fighting their perceived devil while giving him glee. The only way Christians combined may conquer over the devil’s schemes is via individual testimonies.

          PDT’s – testimony or cowardice? Tolerance or vitriol? Trolling or belonging?
          Your choice

          Reply
          • Jack

             /  13th September 2020

            So that’s either trolling or vitriol as I don’t think there are many cowardly Christians in NZ. But there are plenty on cult slides

            Reply
            • Change the record, the needle’s stuck on that one.

            • Jack

               /  13th September 2020

              Kitty, everyone’s record gets stuck on their own area of expertise. Mine is belonging to Church. Try not to get angry.

              A recognised part of the Cult Escape Process involves anger.

              CEP – bookmark that one. Jack coined it

            • Your expertise doesn’t even show you that referring to “Church” is nonsensical. You don’t know that this is meaningless.

              I am not angry; don’t flatter yourself. I wonder why you are so obtuse about these things…and why you keep repeating yourself like a stuck record.

    • Duker

       /  13th September 2020

      Key discovery
      “May 8: Certain people in the New Zealand media decide to give Billy a platform. He appears on Sean Plunket’s radio show….”

      Explains it all, and he was used to being a public speaker from his blues music and Im wondering if the hand behind the curtain isnt Sean Plunketts ( and others)

      Reply
      • Jack

         /  13th September 2020

        Wouldn’t surprise me, but hey let’s not start another conspiracy theory

        Reply
        • Duker

           /  13th September 2020

          Theres a guy Stace , a private investigator and ‘founder’ of the Public Party who seems to me is the brains behind the whole deal. I wonder whos pulling his strings and weather the money is really coming from a large number of small donors. The non registered Public Party / Rubicon has donated around $65k to the Advance ship of fools Party.

          Reply
          • Jack

             /  13th September 2020

            Fair suggestion I think Duker.
            It’s alright for people to hold varying views on the issues Advance is promoting but when the foundation of a movement is a cult, the wackiness should be exposed as soon as possible.
            It’s the minions who suffer in the end and, for many in cult, the light at the end of that tunnel is a long time coming. Meanwhile the honeymoon period causes division and alarm.
            It could well be that some bodies who care nothing for God are the ones pulling the strings and giving bolstering encouragements so soon after Billy got his ‘call’. That’s a whole new level of humiliations for him if/when he wants to come clean.

            I have seen time and again how Pentecostals are rude and demanding, leaving turmoil in their wake. Have also experienced the strangeness that is the SDA ‘church’. Deceitful to its core

            Reply
            • Kimbo

               /  13th September 2020

              The thing I find deceitful about the Seventh Day Adventists is they are often not up-front about who they are, and the products, doctrines and church they are representing. This is an example:

              https://www.hopechannel.nz/about-us/

              …where even in the “About Us” section they don’t disclose who and what they are presenting.

              Lots of stuff around nutrition (and I’m not talking about the Sanitarium brand, where it is common knowledge who owns it), quit smoking and religious studies programmes that fail to disclose in a sufficiently transparent manner what is really being propagated.

              Don’t have a problem at all with the SDAs putting out their shingle in the public square and attempting to gain an audience and following for their beliefs in the free marketplace of ideas. Good luck to ‘em. But just as we rightly expect and sufficient disclosure from business and political parties, it says much about their lack of ethics that the SDAs do not voluntarily do the same.

            • Jack

               /  13th September 2020

              In a nutshell, you have described the symptoms of a powerful ‘church’ which adds works to salvation. Hence the secrecy.

              They hook people first, then when they’re in worshiping Jesus, they must keep up appearances or else lose pride. It quickly becomes a matter of secretly rejecting the cross. This leads to private shame and massive striving for weak Christians

  8. Sunny

     /  13th September 2020

    Well I don’t support the advance party I think it is designed to shut down discussion to dismiss topics as some sort of whack job conspiracy, or a denier, or anti science. Take UN agenda 21. That is an actual thing. No conspiracy needed, and in Waitakere it is the basis of their eco city planning rules and the first paragraph of their district plan. You can certainly oppose quite fairly the rules of agenda 21 and the way they are inacted in our town planning and rules. Anti- abortion. Why is that a conspiracy theory. I’m not christian so no hard beliefs. But I am a mother and at a certain point the thing growing in your belly is most certainly a baby. . So I think the current rules that were passed were excessive. Conspiracy theory or different opinion. Anti – Vax. I have vaccinated my kids. All good. But I don’t support mandatory vaccine or medical treatment. I prefer public education. And yes sometimes vaccines can be harmful. Especially ones that are rushed. See “Narcolepsy Following 2009 Pandemrix Influenza Vaccination in Europe”

    Reply
    • duperez

       /  13th September 2020

      If “UN agenda 21 is an actual thing, no conspiracy needed, and in Waitakere it is the basis of their eco city planning rules and the first paragraph of their district plan,” is that down to some nefarious people in the UN or because some people in Waitakere deciding that is how it is to be?

      When masses of people presented their case to authorities in Waitemata how were they heard? How come their suggested outlines for the way they think the place should operate were not accepted ahead of what eventually came to be adopted?

      Do Councillors enact what they want according to the powers vested in them? Do they get their powers and agendas from the evil intentioned at the UN?

      Reply
  9. Alan Wilkinson

     /  13th September 2020

    Most of the population will happily sacrifice freedom for the illusion of safety and therefore any counter protest will be derided but needs to be supported at least in principle.

    The longer the virus persists the better the Swedish approach looks and the more nations prove to have fared worse under lockdowns. Watch this space.

    Reply
    • Duker

       /  13th September 2020

      Greece 300 died , Sweden 5500 have died and probably 9500 by start of next year.
      Most nations , that reacted quickly enough, fared much much better under lockdowns
      Of course vacillation has the worst of both approaches , which the poster child is UK

      Sweden does of course have rough equivalent to lour level 2.5 ( primary schools were closed) and like most countries that can control them closed borders.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  13th September 2020

        In Sweden 100,000 people die every year. Every day Sweden drops lower on the list of virus deaths per million. Now 13th below Peru, Belgium, Spain, Bolivia, Chile, Brazil, Equador, UK, USA, Italy. France, Holland and Ireland coming up next.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  13th September 2020

          Do you feel safe..Al?

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  14th September 2020

            No, I feel lucky, B, and at this age happy to enjoy every day. We don’t know what comes next fortunately.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  14th September 2020

              On that subject I am worried about my old mate, Gezza, missing here for some time. I haven’t been able to contact him and his health was poor.

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