Interesting poll reactions

The latest Roy Morgan poll has National down 4.5 to 49.5% and Labour up 0.5 to 26.0% – see Roy Morgan poll – June.

National supporter David Farrar showed on Facebook that the drop for National doesn’t bother him.

National is in real trouble in the polls. They have dropped to 49.5% in the latest Roy Morgan!!

They would have only 62 seats on this poll, while the surging Labour Party would have 32 seats.

He also posted briefly at Kiwiblog – Latest poll – and linked via “I’ve blogged the latest poll at Curia”.

In contrast there has been no post on it at The Standard (to date), only a brief mention and exchange between two Labour actiovists, the first of whom is also an author.

Latest Roy Morgan out. 4.5% drop in support for National. Judith Collins will be well pleased!

http://roymorgan.com/findings/6300-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-june-2015-201506240227

So no mention of Labour’s result by Te Reo Putake, and a snarky response when a fellow party member details some fairly pertinent results.

And another tries to dredge up a diss…

Clemgeopin

Support for Independent/ Others = 2% (up 1%).

That is more than the support for each of the following patsy parties
in Government…

ACT P=1%
Maori P=1%
Uni Fut= 0%.

Pathetic !

…while also ignoring the polling elephant in Labour’s room.

Hang neo-liberals

‘Neo-liberal’ has had various meanings but the most common meaning inn current use seems to be ‘enemy of a leftie to be defeated at any cost’.

Some on the left go as far as wanting to exterminate all neo-liberals and return to the good old days – of Muldoon apparently. If only they knew.

Whether the extermination is intended as figurative or literal it illustrates the degree of intolerance of some active in politics (similar  degrees of  intolerance can  apparent  from the right too).

There was an illustration of this at The Standard today, where someone deemed an enemy had the cheek to join in a discussion.

A seemingly reasonable question prompted a murderous response.

Colville:

What do you suggest we do with the standing trees instead of selling them to China?

Stuart Munro:

Hang neo-liberals from them.

Stuart has a habit of making extreme anti-far-left comments.

Colville:

So you want to murder how many people exactly?

Macro:

as many as it takes!

Colonial Rawshark:

I observe that the neoliberals are quite happy to cause economically motivated deaths and suicides in Greece and Spain by the dozens.

halfcrown:

“So you want to murder how many people exactly?”

I thought Stuart Munro said neo-liberals. He never mentioned people.

It’s hard to know how much jest is involved but the degree of intolerance to deemed enemies is obvious. This sort of sentiment in left wing social media is quite common.

UPDATE: And to illustrate how this is not an isolated example, not much further down the thread:

linda:

new Zealand is in desperate need of madame guillotine the parasites need removal so a reset can begin the let the eat cake crew need a cure.

ABP/Labour policy suggestions

An interesting bunch of policy suggestions from  the ABP Branch of the Labour Party (Dunedin South) via Colonial Viper at The Standard:

With regards and credit to the ABP Branch of the Labour Party (Dunedin South):

1) A UBI for all NZers 18 and over set at 45% of the full time minimum wage.

2) Citizens Grant: at ages 21, 40 and 65 a one off ‘citizens grant’ of $10,000 is distributed to each person which they can use towards their education, setting up a small business, paying off a mortgage or their retirement plans.

3) Direct government creation of money. Each month, the Reserve Bank shall credit the Government’s operating bank account with a sum equivalent to 10% of the Crown’s tax take for that month as averaged over the previous 5 years. (Giving the government an additional ~$500M to spend per month without borrowing or taxation).

4) The minimum wage will auto-set every 3 years at 2/3 of the average wage.

5) A top income tax rate of 49% will be introduced at 10x the average wage.

6) The lowest income tax rate shall be reduced to 10%.

7) An FTT shall be introduced allowing regressive GST to be halved to 7.5%.

8) NZ jobs guarantee: minimum wage employment to be provided for each and every citizen who wants to work and who has been resident in the country for at least 12 months; citizens will have the option of full time or part time work as best suits them, but must perform to all normal employment standards.

9) MMP threshold to be halved to 2.5%.

10) Electoral MPs to be elected via STV> ranking.

11) All entities registered or resident in NZ shall incur an annual wealth tax of 0.25% on each dollar of financial assets (including property), held whether in NZ or overseas, over a NZ$1M threshold. (Across generations this tax will effectively act as an inheritance tax).

12) Compass to provide all meals on Parliament grounds: all existing food outlets on Parliament grounds are to be shut down and replaced with self-serve kiosks supplying Compass frozen meals flown in from Auckland daily.

Most of those are unrealistic ideological dream stuff even for the Labour Party.

Number 9 is ok (and could go further). Number 10 is worth considering.

Number 12 is funny (especially if you know about food proposals for Dunedin Hospital).

A symptom of Labour’s core problems

Labour have a number of deep seated problems – see What now for Labour and Little?

The Standard is a window into some of Labour’s problems. It is a blog dominated by National negativity with scant lauding of Labour.

They pretend they encourage robust debate on the Labour left but continually demonstrated the opposite.

Two long time regular Labour activists at The Standard are Te Reo Putake (‘the voice of reason’, yeah right) and Colonial Viper/Rawshark (Tat Loo) have highlighted the divisions and infighting and intolerance of dissent within Labour.

Tat is a party maverick and has recently been speaking up about Labour’s obvious problems. One response from TRP ironically sums up some of Labour’s problems.

Do you have anything new to try, CV? Seriously, your relentless negativity has its bleak charms, but unless you’ve got practical solutions, why bother? What specific, measurable, realistic and time bound ideas do you bring to the table?

TRP seems ignorant of the fact that his accusations sum up his own problems. And The Standard’s. And Labour’s.

When the activist core of Labour is this dysfunctional it’s hardly surprising that Labour is struggling.

CV tried to debate but TRP’s follow up comments demonstrate the deep seated intolerance and lack of self awareness:

So you’ve got nothing at all? Just the whinging?

So, nothing then. Good to know.

We’ve established that you haven’t got a clue, CV. Anything else you want to add?

Yep, nothing but negativity. CV has no answers.

Be honest. You can’t report to anyone, because you haven’t got anything to say. You’re stuck in a scratched groove son, time to change the record.

You enjoy a good sulk. Good for you. But boring for the rest of us.

Do you have anything new to try, TRP? Seriously, your relentless negativity offers little but bleak self harm. Unless you’ve got practical solutions, why bother? What specific, measurable, realistic and time bound ideas do you bring to the table?

Do you have anything new to try, Standard? Seriously, your relentless negativity offers little but bleak self harm. Unless you’ve got practical solutions, why bother? What specific, measurable, realistic and time bound ideas do you bring to the table?

Do you have anything new to try, Labour? Seriously, your relentless negativity offers little but bleak self harm. Unless you’ve got practical solutions, why bother? What specific, measurable, realistic and time bound ideas do you bring to the table?

What now for waitresses and waiters?

Now that John Key seems to have adequately dealt with his hair pulling embarrassment what now for the focus of the issue, the way waiting staff are treated by customers and by employers?

One waitress has spoken out, but in doing so she created a political shit fight. And she became the target of an offensive defense that tried to paint her as the problem, not the victim.

Sometimes amongst the noise and sheep herding there can be interesting discussions at The Standard.

Mandy Hager’s post Pull the other one… ponytails, minimisation and male privilege is worth reading as a fairly feminine perspective. Perhaps a bit too feminine good/masculine bad but she makes some points worth debating.

On this post is a good comment thread, started by Colonial Rawshark (who’s name is still promoting the hacking of political opponents but that’s another story).

So, after several days of ongoing disgust, outrage, screaming and shouting, what courageous and concrete steps has the Political Left proposed to empower vulnerable and poorly paid service employees and contractors who find themselves in bad work situations?

What gutsy legislation, regulation, unionisation and other changes with real teeth has the Left proposed to enable vulnerable workers to fight back hard against bad treatment by customers, employers and media organisations?

Indeed has there been anything more substantial and concrete than ‘that’s disgusting, disappointing and an indictment of entrenched male power and privilege in our society’? No?

The Left couldn’t even get its shit together in the first day or two after the original story broke to protect the young cafe worker in question. Pitiful.

And IMO it’s exactly why, despite all the quite legitimate anger and indignation expressed, the self proclaimed Left is increasingly irrelevant to voters.

Initially this was attacked in the usual way, albeit moderately to a long time Standard leftie.

Stephanie Rodgers tried to dictate what should be talked about, as she often does.

Speaking of “both obvious and unavoided”, congratulations on completely erasing the key aspect of gender from the issue. On a post about how this issue is explicitly gendered, even!

Why not get outraged about the Left failing to take concrete steps to overthrow male entitlement? What about empowering vulnerable women, wherever they work? (The Roger Sutton case rather aptly showed how sexual harassment in the workplace isn’t limited to cafes.)

But I guess that would be terrible, no-one-cares-about-your-side-issues identity politics, wouldn’t it?

And then there was a branch that attacked Colonial Rawshark for not doing enough about what he was talking about himself. A common ‘attack the messenger’ practice.

But then there was some actual addressing of the issues raised. Redlogix:

Well expressed CV. By allowing the debate to be solely framed in misogynist terms, the Right easily fences the issue off into the feminist ghetto of NZ politics.

Which is sad. It’s way more important than this.

I’ve read Mandy’s excellent OP several times now with care. It’s a powerful piece, it emphasises, not just the idiocy of the PM’s behaviour, but the sickening response of so many to not only minimise it, but to attack the victim as well.

And then like you I’m left wondering ‘what next’? Why is the Left so powerless to act? Why when even something as tiny as Cunliffe expressing shame as a man for the violence perpetrated on women – why was that so readily ridiculed and belittled?

When Mandy writes:

There are also the online comments, proof (as if we needed it) that there is a deep seething underbelly of misogyny out there – and that issues of appropriateness, sexual intimidation, abuse of power and minimization of women’s complaints are not only misunderstood but carry no weight at all to a significant proportion of our population.

I am quite certain this is a subjective truth and reality for Mandy, yet when you are effectively telling half the population that they ‘hate women’ – something has gone badly wrong. This is not a vote winner if nothing else.

After 40 or more years of feminism, why is there so much misunderstanding, suspicion, and downright loathing in some quarters, between the genders? As this incident and it’s attendant blowback has demonstrated – it doesn’t seem to have taken us anywhere constructive.

There’s a good discussion on that, but it includes more attacks and diversions:

‘freedom:

“effectively telling half the population that they ‘hate women’ ”
Quite the contrary. I find the article to be one of the more empowering messages on this blog for sometime. Reminding all of us, regardless of gender, politics or circumstance, we are all responsible and necessary as part of the solution, every day

Marty mars:

sadly what tends to happen now imo is that the discussion will be moved, in oh so reasonable and soft tones, into the other areas – this is, imo, cv and reds way of showing they care about the issues raised in the post itself /sarc and of course they get to talk about themselves and their experience which is just so riveting and important /double sarc

RedLogix:

Your attempt at silencing and shaming is disgusting.

You’re tactics are no different, and lower than those being used by the Henry’s and Hosking’s of this world.

It’s not often that the common attempts to shut up and shame get called, but as an author Redlogix can get away with it. But not without being challenged:

One Anonymous Bloke:

It’s the violence inherent in the system. You’re being oppressed!

RedLogix:

No – marty was doing the derailing thing. Oppression is something altogether different.

But make a joke of it – have a bit of a ‘horse around’ if you like.

Marty mars:

untrue red – I posted a comment to another comment not to you or cv – I did that because I didn’t really want to engage and encourage you to begin the calm dissemination of what you think – I’m not interested, I’d rather hear and learn from women.

weka:

Marty was spot on in naming a dynamic that occurs here. Thanks btw for confirming it, by misusing Bailey’s experience of sexual harrassment by the PM as if that in any way has anything to do with marty commenting to you here. It’s inconceivable to me that you cannot see the power differences, so that just leaves your politics.

The shame is already on you for how you’ve brought yourself into this conversation in the way you often do. Marty just pointed it out.

One Anonymous Bloke, marty mars and weka are frequent members of the shut up and shame brigade.

Back to Colonial Rawshark’s first paragraph.

So, after several days of ongoing disgust, outrage, screaming and shouting, what courageous and concrete steps has the Political Left proposed to empower vulnerable and poorly paid service employees and contractors who find themselves in bad work situations?

The diversions, messenger attacking and shutting up has again prevailed (so far) as that remains unanswered.

It seems that waiters are frequently the target of poor customer behaviour.

Some on the right (it’s been rife at Kiwiblog) have tried to play this down by attacking and trying to discredit the waitress.

And some on the left have failed to address an important issue the hair puling raised.

Political activists are too active trying to wreck their opponents and too often fail to do anything practical to address the problems ordinary people, like waitresses, have to deal with day after day.

What now for waitresses and waiters?

UPDATE: another word from Colonial Rawshark:

My contention is that the Political Left has come forward with plenty of outrage and disgust, but it has not come forward with concrete proposals for change for empowering vulnerable workers victimised by customers or employers (regardless of whether that change is based on gender or on class).

And weka, one of the chief derailers of threads she doesn’t approve of, responded:

I’m sure it is CV. Pity you chose to bring it up in a way guaranteed to derail the thread and track it along the class politics vs gender politics path then.

I have no idea what you mean by the Political Left, but can only assume you are referring in part to authors and commenters here on ts. I’m seeing lots of activism and response to what has happened. Besides, I’m pretty sure that some legislation already exists to protect Bailey (and was ignored by the PM), and that the left wing parties already have policy that would give even more protection.

“regardless”

So take it to OM. This post and thread is about gender.

If the gender police speak then one mustn’t stray from their narrow path of discussion. How not to achieve anything outside one’s bubble.

Another promising discussion squashed. That has happened during the time I put this post together.