Message to The Standard

I had a wee dabble at The Standard yesterday, and was on the receiving end (again) of it’s resident dirty attacks. Some of it is so pathetic it is hilarious – at one stage I was called a liar for posting a published poll result but not linking to what eventually turned out to be a completely irrelevant poll – that is with ‘adam’ here.

Other dirty activists had attacked as usual – in particular the regulars ‘One Anonymous Bloke’ and Robert Guyton who happen to be Green supporters (and have been doing it for years), and also the ever bitter ‘marty mars’ who doesn’t seem to have a party extreme enough to support these days.

So I responded, and as ‘weka’ (another Green supporter) is likely to waste her time doing something in response I’ll also repeat it here.

I think it’s worth repeating this (in Open Mike 06/08/2017) here, a response to marty mars: (on another thread where it happened):

“contributes to a toxic environment for the left here with his incessant fault finding and attack posts against the left”

Very funny – or do you actually believe that?

I only occasionally post here. You and a few others frequently post here, creating a toxic environment of the left, attacking many people you judge to not be suitably left, or something.

You (collectively) deter far more people from voting left than i ever will, because they are not the right sort of left for you, not left enough, or just that you make an ill-informed judgement.

I first came to The Standard thinking it would be a good place to join in the rebuilding of Labour after Clark lost in 2008 and then departed Parliament. I was mistaken. This has been a toxic, small minded, dirty unwelcoming place.

There are good people here, and interesting comments at times, but it has been dominated by persistent petty regulars who burn off anyone deemed some sort of enemy.

It has changed, probably because more moderate centre-ish people have been driven away or can’t be bothered with the toxicity.

What is obvious now that, while there may be a few Labour try-hards, the dirty politics here is now dominated by non-Labour supporters like marty mars, OAB, Robert Guyton, who all regularly and persistently attack anyone deemed some sort of enemy.

It’s pathetic, and it’s counter productive. Even if there is some intent to drive off potential Labour voters that is cutting off your nose to spite your face, and certainly won’t encourage people to vote Green or Mana.

This is a toxic environment without me, I just pop in occasionally to see if anything has changed. Obviously not.

I’ve voted both Green and Labour, but I and I think many others who pass by here certainly wouldn’t encouraged to do so again by the bitter and twisted attack dweebs who dominate threads here.

Ardern and Davis have given the first sign in a decade that Labour may be able to climb back into prominence again. But it looks like they will struggle to get any help here with so much toxic self destruction further to the left going on.

If Labour supporters (and anyone genuinely wanting a change of government) want to do something positive to rebuild the party they should stand up more to the crap perpetuated by a few spoilers here.

The Left: abusing and losing

People who are active in politics on the left continually seem baffled as to why their politics and their favoured parties aren’t much more popular – as they abuse, shout down and exclude anyone who they think doesn’t measure up to their ideals.

This was highlighted in a thread at The Standard in reaction to another poor poll result for Labour – Roy Morgan: NAT 48.5% (up 1.5%), LAB/GR 41.5% (unch):

B Waghorn:

I’m sorry but 48% of kiwis can get fucked , any country that accepts a pm that is as dirty as key and a party that re promotes a crook like Collins is not worthy of respect .

Labour desperately need a good chunk of that 48% to switch their support to them, but abuse like this is unlikely to help them achieve that. More likely the opposite.

Some on the left recognise their continuing abuse and lose problem – Colonial Viper responded:

The more the Political Left tell 48% of Kiwis that they can go get fucked, and particularly the majority of Kiwis in provincial/regional NZ (where National support tends to be very strong) to go get fucked, the more the Left is lost at sea.

Weka followed up with a play on voting numbers.

Hey people, it’s not 48% of Kiwis. It’s not even 48% of registered voters. Remember that National’s vote last time was 30% of eligible voters.

Today it’s 48% of people that were motivated to take part in the poll and who knew what they wanted to say. Did RM report the people who were undecided or told them to fuck off or were too busy/stressed to take part or couldn’t be bothered?

I don’t think we should give up on NZ just yet, and we need to be very careful to not buy into the narrative that nearly 50% of this country support Key, because it’s simply not true.

What the people who don’t vote (or respond to polls) think is unknown , and irrelevant in a democracy.

What Weka doesn’t do is apply the same reductions to other parties. If she wants to claim National only have 30% support to other parties then Labour would have 17% support and her favoured Greens 8%.

Colonial Viper:

Blaming the opposing team for your own series of losing performances is not going to get you any where.

Labour and the Greens continue to struggle to get anywhere.

And those active on the left of New Zealand politics, I guess in frustration at their lack of traction, lash out at anyone deemed to be not on their side. Which when you take into account the infighting on the left is the majority of potential voters.

Marty Mars shows that the problem is unlikely to go away:

nah cv – some may have given up but the rest of us haven’t and we will keep saying get fucked to the supporters of the disgusting and shameful key and we will do that until they pull the megaphone from our cold hands. That is commitment and integrity – not trying to play all sides, kowtowing in fear or pretend caring. The ONLY answer is commitment to our ideals, ethos and beliefs.

When your ideals and ethos means attacking and abusing anyone deemed to be an enemy (that is, most people).

While people like Marty Mars try to drag Labour to the far left and abuse anyone who they disagree with they will continue to lose their argument with the majority of New Zealanders.

Ngatimozart (typos edited):

You telling 48% of the electorate to Foxtrot Oscar just has alienated them and they will not forget it.

The big problem with the left is it believes that it knows better than the average voter and I saw that arrogance after the last election. Comments like “… the voters are idiots after we showed them all the reasons why …..”. “It’s the voters fault why we didn’t win especially after we showed them the proof from Snowden etc”.

I saw all that and similar as comments on blogs and social media. The message should be that it is your fault, not the voters, that you failed. Blaming the voters for your losing an election because they, the voter, was too dumb to get your message is the height of arrogance.

It is that and the fact that the Labour Party had forgotten its roots and the reason d’etre for its existence that has driven people away from it.

Now it is perceived as being run by special interest groups and has lost touch with reality.I for one would have to agree with that.

It and the left are no longer the political groupings that are for the common working bod. Now they are populated by yuppies and activists with their pet interests that do not necessarily reflect or represent the real world. That is what has driven myself and others away.

We are absolutely sick of the hate politics and negatively that has been emanating from the left for the last five or so years. All it does is belittle you individually and collectively driving away those swing voters in the centre who can make or break an election victory.

That’s my 1c worth.

I’ve seen many ex-Labour voters expressing similar views. More often than not they get criticised and abused and driven away.

Abusing is losing.

What now for waitresses and waiters?

Now that John Key seems to have adequately dealt with his hair pulling embarrassment what now for the focus of the issue, the way waiting staff are treated by customers and by employers?

One waitress has spoken out, but in doing so she created a political shit fight. And she became the target of an offensive defense that tried to paint her as the problem, not the victim.

Sometimes amongst the noise and sheep herding there can be interesting discussions at The Standard.

Mandy Hager’s post Pull the other one… ponytails, minimisation and male privilege is worth reading as a fairly feminine perspective. Perhaps a bit too feminine good/masculine bad but she makes some points worth debating.

On this post is a good comment thread, started by Colonial Rawshark (who’s name is still promoting the hacking of political opponents but that’s another story).

So, after several days of ongoing disgust, outrage, screaming and shouting, what courageous and concrete steps has the Political Left proposed to empower vulnerable and poorly paid service employees and contractors who find themselves in bad work situations?

What gutsy legislation, regulation, unionisation and other changes with real teeth has the Left proposed to enable vulnerable workers to fight back hard against bad treatment by customers, employers and media organisations?

Indeed has there been anything more substantial and concrete than ‘that’s disgusting, disappointing and an indictment of entrenched male power and privilege in our society’? No?

The Left couldn’t even get its shit together in the first day or two after the original story broke to protect the young cafe worker in question. Pitiful.

And IMO it’s exactly why, despite all the quite legitimate anger and indignation expressed, the self proclaimed Left is increasingly irrelevant to voters.

Initially this was attacked in the usual way, albeit moderately to a long time Standard leftie.

Stephanie Rodgers tried to dictate what should be talked about, as she often does.

Speaking of “both obvious and unavoided”, congratulations on completely erasing the key aspect of gender from the issue. On a post about how this issue is explicitly gendered, even!

Why not get outraged about the Left failing to take concrete steps to overthrow male entitlement? What about empowering vulnerable women, wherever they work? (The Roger Sutton case rather aptly showed how sexual harassment in the workplace isn’t limited to cafes.)

But I guess that would be terrible, no-one-cares-about-your-side-issues identity politics, wouldn’t it?

And then there was a branch that attacked Colonial Rawshark for not doing enough about what he was talking about himself. A common ‘attack the messenger’ practice.

But then there was some actual addressing of the issues raised. Redlogix:

Well expressed CV. By allowing the debate to be solely framed in misogynist terms, the Right easily fences the issue off into the feminist ghetto of NZ politics.

Which is sad. It’s way more important than this.

I’ve read Mandy’s excellent OP several times now with care. It’s a powerful piece, it emphasises, not just the idiocy of the PM’s behaviour, but the sickening response of so many to not only minimise it, but to attack the victim as well.

And then like you I’m left wondering ‘what next’? Why is the Left so powerless to act? Why when even something as tiny as Cunliffe expressing shame as a man for the violence perpetrated on women – why was that so readily ridiculed and belittled?

When Mandy writes:

There are also the online comments, proof (as if we needed it) that there is a deep seething underbelly of misogyny out there – and that issues of appropriateness, sexual intimidation, abuse of power and minimization of women’s complaints are not only misunderstood but carry no weight at all to a significant proportion of our population.

I am quite certain this is a subjective truth and reality for Mandy, yet when you are effectively telling half the population that they ‘hate women’ – something has gone badly wrong. This is not a vote winner if nothing else.

After 40 or more years of feminism, why is there so much misunderstanding, suspicion, and downright loathing in some quarters, between the genders? As this incident and it’s attendant blowback has demonstrated – it doesn’t seem to have taken us anywhere constructive.

There’s a good discussion on that, but it includes more attacks and diversions:


“effectively telling half the population that they ‘hate women’ ”
Quite the contrary. I find the article to be one of the more empowering messages on this blog for sometime. Reminding all of us, regardless of gender, politics or circumstance, we are all responsible and necessary as part of the solution, every day

Marty mars:

sadly what tends to happen now imo is that the discussion will be moved, in oh so reasonable and soft tones, into the other areas – this is, imo, cv and reds way of showing they care about the issues raised in the post itself /sarc and of course they get to talk about themselves and their experience which is just so riveting and important /double sarc


Your attempt at silencing and shaming is disgusting.

You’re tactics are no different, and lower than those being used by the Henry’s and Hosking’s of this world.

It’s not often that the common attempts to shut up and shame get called, but as an author Redlogix can get away with it. But not without being challenged:

One Anonymous Bloke:

It’s the violence inherent in the system. You’re being oppressed!


No – marty was doing the derailing thing. Oppression is something altogether different.

But make a joke of it – have a bit of a ‘horse around’ if you like.

Marty mars:

untrue red – I posted a comment to another comment not to you or cv – I did that because I didn’t really want to engage and encourage you to begin the calm dissemination of what you think – I’m not interested, I’d rather hear and learn from women.


Marty was spot on in naming a dynamic that occurs here. Thanks btw for confirming it, by misusing Bailey’s experience of sexual harrassment by the PM as if that in any way has anything to do with marty commenting to you here. It’s inconceivable to me that you cannot see the power differences, so that just leaves your politics.

The shame is already on you for how you’ve brought yourself into this conversation in the way you often do. Marty just pointed it out.

One Anonymous Bloke, marty mars and weka are frequent members of the shut up and shame brigade.

Back to Colonial Rawshark’s first paragraph.

So, after several days of ongoing disgust, outrage, screaming and shouting, what courageous and concrete steps has the Political Left proposed to empower vulnerable and poorly paid service employees and contractors who find themselves in bad work situations?

The diversions, messenger attacking and shutting up has again prevailed (so far) as that remains unanswered.

It seems that waiters are frequently the target of poor customer behaviour.

Some on the right (it’s been rife at Kiwiblog) have tried to play this down by attacking and trying to discredit the waitress.

And some on the left have failed to address an important issue the hair puling raised.

Political activists are too active trying to wreck their opponents and too often fail to do anything practical to address the problems ordinary people, like waitresses, have to deal with day after day.

What now for waitresses and waiters?

UPDATE: another word from Colonial Rawshark:

My contention is that the Political Left has come forward with plenty of outrage and disgust, but it has not come forward with concrete proposals for change for empowering vulnerable workers victimised by customers or employers (regardless of whether that change is based on gender or on class).

And weka, one of the chief derailers of threads she doesn’t approve of, responded:

I’m sure it is CV. Pity you chose to bring it up in a way guaranteed to derail the thread and track it along the class politics vs gender politics path then.

I have no idea what you mean by the Political Left, but can only assume you are referring in part to authors and commenters here on ts. I’m seeing lots of activism and response to what has happened. Besides, I’m pretty sure that some legislation already exists to protect Bailey (and was ignored by the PM), and that the left wing parties already have policy that would give even more protection.


So take it to OM. This post and thread is about gender.

If the gender police speak then one mustn’t stray from their narrow path of discussion. How not to achieve anything outside one’s bubble.

Another promising discussion squashed. That has happened during the time I put this post together.

The Standard promotes proofless conspiracy

Joe Trinder claimed a bizarre conspiracy on Mana News, where he is editor. The site promotes John Minto and Hone Harawira, and it is also closely aligned to the Mana Party (Trinder was a Mana candidate last election).

ManaNewsHeadThe conspiracy is detail;ed in Trinder’s Key/Campbell conspiracy, which also shows Trinder’s response:

Mana News doesn’t have to substantiate our reveal it’s sources we don’t write balanced articles. We expose the national governments corruption the onus is on the media to do its job and prove us wrong.

This has been widely criticised, especially on the left. But some have chosen to support and promote this, like The Standard:

That has been posted under ‘Notices and Features’ – the author who put that up chose not to do it under their own pseudonym. While there is plenty of criticism there is no sign of concern from any authors so it must bee seen as acceptable – or perhaps Lynn Prentice is the one who posted it and no one is game to challenge him for doing it.

Promoting a conspiracy like this is bad enough, but it also breaks Standard rules.


We encourage robust debate and we’re tolerant of dissenting views. But this site run for reasonably rational debate between dissenting viewpoints and we intend to keep it operating that way.

Promoting bizarre conspiracies is not reasonably rational debate.

What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate. This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so.

The Standard has a post that promotes assertions that the claimant has refused to substantiate. They flaunt their own rules.

Such comments may be deleted without warning or one of the alternatives below may be employed. The action taken is completely up to the moderator who takes it.

But that explains why – hypocrisy is completely up to the moderators, and authors, and The Standard.

Most of the comments are dubious or outright critical of Trinder, but criticism of the willing Standard complicity in promoting a conspiracy lacking any evidence is understandably muted.

Even the criticisms of Trinder are turned into more bizarre – this from Sacha.

Trinder claims John Key appointed Weldon as CEO of (private company) Mediaworks. That’s stupid enough on its own for me to not accept any of his other reckons without evidence.

That’s a sensible assessment.

We don’t need some weird conspiracy to explain what’s going on here – it’s a logical outcome of legislating our media to run as a market. The cure is a law change, not tinfoil.

But he wants law change? Laws for what, dictating what private media companies can and can’t do?

And a few are defending Trinder. Weka (a Green supporter and one of the Standard’s most prolific commenters):

I find it entirely credible as a theory. Allowing for differences in use of language (change ‘appointed’ to ‘manipulated the appointment), how is it impossible that Key used his influence to get the CEO he wanted?


Some posts on the article that have been deleted,

A point from Trinder about all these people suddenly concerned about Mana News’ reputation and credibility who’ve never read the site before.

No concern shown about controlling the message type censorship, just making unsubstantiated claims about those who have been censored.

Mana Support Marty Mars replied:

So true that – I wonder about some of the motivations of some who hardly ever read Mana News and now have come out of the woodwork with their righteous proofing – if I was paranoid I’d say some are going into payback – or maybe just putting the boot in because the opportunity is there – oh look how arrrwful that Mana Movement is – such ungrateful poos after all the ‘respect’ we gave them, look they are nothing but losers haw haw haw – and that’s just the so called lefties.

He (like some others) also tries to divert criticism to John Key:

yep key lies, lies and lies again and even when it is on the news and everyone is jumping and pumping – nothing, key slides out. This particular story is pure key – it smells for sure but the focus of some goes onto Mana – same as it ever was.

He had previously posted:

PROOF, show. me. the. proof, now!!! show me the proof now!!! show it to me!!! meanwhile all the proof for a million lies and distortions are in BliPs list and what has happened – nowt and why??? – get that and the left might get somewhere in the next election.

Might be true, sounds trueish, hope it’s true, but proof – nah that’s not how the game works anymore.

That was challenged by Bill but Mars

“where no verification or thought is required and where such ‘niceties’ sink below the fetid surface of a world comprising of nowt but a churning of senseless bullshit.”

good description of the current truths put to us by MSM and politicians.

the truth and proof are slippery tuna wiggling in water

I saw the article and decided early on not to link to it in OM because I felt it had holes and would raise more questions than it answered – and it has – but I support Joe and what he has done.

More diversion, an admission the claims ‘had holes’, but support of “Joe and what he has done” anyway.

Without any evidence the conspiracy claims look like nonsense, The Standard willingly promotes the stupidity and it’s supporters – like Weka and Marty Mars – defend and divert and support this lame attempt at dirty politics.

They are usually a lot more robust in their criticism of this sort of dirty and baseless blogging if it’s on Whale Oil. They strongly criticised Colin Craig for much more vague connections with conspiracies.

But it’s different if someone on the left does it – the Standard bearer of the Labour left even promotes it.

Māori language – precious and preciousness

Māori language is precious to many New Zealanders, and is a precious part of New Zealand. It’s good that a revival of the language has been and is promoted widely.

I learnt French at high school, but I wish I had learnt Māoriat primary school instead. It would have been interesting and would have ended up being useful.

We all speak, understand and use Māori language, to varying degrees.

And it’s great to see Maori who are proud of their language.

But it’s possible to take pride too far, and to become overly precious. I’ve recently seen examples of this.

Off an on for a year a commenter at The Standard has targetted me, stalking, harrassing and abusing. In another of many irony he responded to me with:

Te Reo Putake
14 July 2012 at 8:44 am

As a proven liar yourself, Pete, you are in no position to be questioning the bona fides of others.

They sometimes make many of these sorts of comments a day. I mostly ignore, but sometimes I speak back, which I did in this case:

You’re the liar, you’ve proven nothing except your own obsession with dishonest stalking. What have you achieved in a year? Nothing but self discrediting. As you have amply shown here. Te Reo Puthetic.

That provoked a response from someone else, including abuse and threats:

“Te Reo Puthetic”

That is unacceptable pete – I am angry that you have mangled and insulted the language. Please apologise immediately – you don’t need to abuse Māori to make your points or rather if you, you confirm vile, racist, scum attitudes and the consequences of that will not be pleasant for you i promise.

That sort of abuse was continued for a day in a number of posted comments.

Using the name Te Reo Putaki with a frequently nasty and abusive manner on a blog is very insulting to ‘the language’. Claiming ‘abuse of Māori’ while abusing and threatening is very insulting to the mana of Māori.


It happened again.

Vicky32 12.2.1
16 July 2012 at 6:40 pm

If you had half a brain, you could do what I do, and skim… (Te Real Putz, I am talking about you.)

This time a far more reasonable protest:

marty mars
17 July 2012 at 5:39 pm

“Te Real Putz”

Are you aware of the sacrifices and struggle attached to getting te reo Māori recognised as an official language, let alone respected? Sure I am being precious but just think on the fact that your mangling of it to make a point hurts because it is only just making it through. I’d ask you to apologise but what’s the point…


Are you aware of the sacrifices and struggle attached to getting te reo Māori recognised as an official language,

Of course I am! I am a linguist. My play on his name was intended not as an insult to the language (that being said, no language is sacred, and thinking otherwise is just silly.) but to the man, who is in fact as much of a putz as my late husband (and so my brother nick-named him. Google putz, it’s Yiddish)

Welsh was brought back from the brink within living memory, and my grandmother’s mother tongue, Manx Gaelic, died in that same time. Maori is far from being the only endangered language, and in fact when I lived in Whakatane, my 3 year old son and I sat waiting for a bus, and we were the only people speaking English in the whole bus station!

My point is, that in Rotorua when I was a child, and other parts of the BOP when I was in my early 20s, I was surrounded by native speakers of Maori.

Therefore the ‘Maori is endangered’ people always seemed to me to be a bit precious and unaware of the status of the language! A language being taught to children by their parents, is not in any danger. Those who learn Maori as adults tend to be Pakeha, many motivated by guilt/pride etc.

Apologise? Of course not. I have done nothing to apologise for.

And that was accepted. The difference in tone and lack of abuse is a different story.

Māori language should be respected – but languages are very flexible, evolving systems of communication. Words are ‘mangled’ all the time, especially in English. My name get’s mangled frequently on blogs, and marty mars’ seems to be quite a mangle.
Respect for a lanugauge should included respect for the fact that different people and peoples can use the same language in different ways.

Being super sensitive to impure use of a language is being precious. Some Māori have a right to feel aggrieved about things that have happened in the past, and some attitides now. But over-reacting and lashing and bashing won’t win any respect, it will amplify rather than address issues that need to be discussed and resolved.

Te Reo Putake

As for the use and misuse of Te Reo Putake, it’s worth looking at the meaning. I won’t try to translate the intent of the phrase’s meaning, but here are the components:


1. (noun) voice.
Ko ētahi reo i ririki, ko ētahi i rarahi, ko ētahi i tanguru (TPH 15/12/1900 wh3). / Some voices were soft, others were loud and some were deep.
2. (noun) language, dialect, tongue, speech.
Haere ki a Wiremu wherawhera mai ai ngā whārangi, nā ka kitea aua kupu i reira, nō reira he aha kē tēnei tāwai i te reo? (HM 4/2009 wh3) / Go to Williams’ dictionary and open the pages and those words will be found there, so just what is this criticism of the language about?


1. (verb) (-tia) to originate.
2. (noun) cause, reason, origin, source.
I whakaatu anō ia i te āhua o te taipō pīwa, te pūtake mai me te rongoā (TP 5/1901:11). / He gave instruction on the nature of typhoid fever, the origin and the cure.
3. (noun) base, root.
Kua roa ka maha haere ngā kōpurepure, nāwai ā, ka heke whakararo ki te pūtake o te taewa, ā, he maroke te tukunga iho (TP 3/1905:5). / After a time the number of blotches increases and after a while the descend to the base of the potato plant, and drying out is the result.

The nature of language is determined by the nature of the speaker/writer.


Your patience is impressive marty.

One way racism

The water issue has stirred up emotions on both sides of the debate. One of these emotions is becoming highly charged due to one way racism.

Any perception of offence against Maori, manufactured or real, can become a major scandal, as John Key found out last week.

But abuse, intimidation, divisiveness and the like seems to be accepted as fair game when when directed at non-Maori.

This is apparent on blogs. I’ve been accused of racism twice over the weekend, on one occasion for stating agreement with Maori in At one with Māori on water.

There has been an example of reverse racism on The Standard last night. RedLogix posted this comment:

RedLogix 4.1.1

Maori are in effect via article two of the Treaty of Waitangi the only legitimate source of the granting of any consent to use any water from the rivers and lakes in their possession at the point of the signing of that treaty….

And all other land and resources in this country.

All you filthy colonising white maggot scum can crawl back to the slums you came from now.

(Maybe I should add a tag to this one, but for the life of me I can’t think which one…)

The final comment on tags was a wink signal to people who know RedLogix. But this was a flimsy excuse for posting what he knew would be a politically and racially divisive comment.

Support from others at The Standard was not surprising. Marty Mars, one who accused me of racism, laughed it off as a joke.

marty mars

LOL pete you need to take a break from the webs

And a Labour Party official…


Yeah.  The theft of lands and forests and waterways and fisheries are immaterial but use a couple of cross words and there is hell to pay.

There are a lot of people, many of them reasonable and tolerant types, who are getting very annoyed at what is little more than one way reverse racism. Supposedly we dare not criticise or denigrate anything Maori, but are supposed to meekly accept any crap thrown at us.

I don’t accept this.

We should be working on building better tolerance and understanding of Maori issues, and this has to be (as Pita Sharples has said) “bridging relationships across Treaty partners”. A two way bridge.
Trying to drive a racial wedge for political purposes is not satire, it’s deliberate. And I believe it’s wrong.